SNP leadership election

[Hertsscot]

11 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

I honestly doubt that everyone within the judiciary and Police Scotland is an anti SNP Unionist

Someone would leak it if it was that kind of conspiracy

Allegations need evidence before they are treated as seriously as this

I don't disagree with that and no one is saying everyone in the judiciary or Police Scotland is an anti SNP Unionist, though it would be a mistake to think that none are. Many of the current problems within the SNP are solely of the party's making and have been a concern for several years. However there does appear to an element of theatrics to recent events, making them as visible as possible, either with big tents, hordes of officers or timing of arrests. Why for instance was Beattie arrested yesterday, could he not just have been asked to help the police with their enquiries? There may be legitimate operational reasons but some of this does come across as OTT particularly when compared to how the police have taken a more low key approach to dealing with other politicians.

[Orraloon]

13 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

Beattie also released without charge

If it turns out that there is no criminal fraud the Police are going to have some questions to answer

"We did our best and found nothing illegal" wont wash 

Why wouldn't it wash? Most police investigations end with either "no evidence of criminality" or "not enough evidence to secure a prosecution" in the judgement of the PF. 

None of us know where this one is going because none of us have access to the police evidence.

One thing I find strange about this is that they seized the camper-van. If they have enough evidence to do that, then they should have enough evidence to charge somebody with an offence. Maybe they just forgot to pay the road tax? 

[Malcolm]

2 hours ago, aaid said:

So far all I see is two people arrested and then released without charge and a camper van being towed away - if it was an open and shut case, I’d have expected charges to be laid already.

I’m not fooling myself that this is over, you’re right that it will probably get worse, but I’m waiting to see who gets charged - if anyone does - what with, and what evidence is led.  Unlike you, who seems to have already passed sentence but refuses to say what the crime is.

so far….    It will be for COPFS to judge whether there is a criminal case, the police will merely supply the evidence.

Twitter speculation of a very high profile arrest to come…..

[Ally Bongo]

2 hours ago, Orraloon said:

Why wouldn't it wash?

 

Because of the pantomime around it and 2 (so far) arrests

[Ally Bongo]

What is the interview with Kate Forbes that the BBC and Sky are trying to dupe people with ?

[aaid]

2 hours ago, Orraloon said:

Why wouldn't it wash? Most police investigations end with either "no evidence of criminality" or "not enough evidence to secure a prosecution" in the judgement of the PF. 

None of us know where this one is going because none of us have access to the police evidence.

One thing I find strange about this is that they seized the camper-van. If they have enough evidence to do that, then they should have enough evidence to charge somebody with an offence. Maybe they just forgot to pay the road tax? 

Parked up on a drive so wouldn’t need to be taxed. 

[Squirrelhumper]

5 hours ago, aaid said:

What exactly is the issue?

Shona Robinson said there are issues with the culture within the SNP headquarters. Live on TV just there. 

Maybe she's a unionist plant too. 

 

[aaid]

15 minutes ago, Squirrelhumper said:

Shona Robinson said there are issues with the culture within the SNP headquarters. Live on TV just there. 

Maybe she's a unionist plant too. 

 

I think the fact there are problems within HQ are self-evident.   Not sure what the criminality is though.

I see that Sky News are speculating that Nicola Sturgeon is likely to be arrested as she’s the third name along with Murrell and Beattie that signed the reports.  On that basis I’d expect the auditors to be arrested as well.

[ParisInAKilt]

If it’s a union conspiracy etc why wait until the snp are arguably at their weakest in years? 

[PapofGlencoe]

I don't think it's beyond the state to infiltrate the SNP. .maybe that makes me sound crazy.  Wouldn't be surprised if they listen in and read internal emails, mobiles.  The Spanish did that to the independence supporting Catalan leaders pleading state security - read the pegasus case.  So why wouldn't the UK?  To me it's more naive to think they would do nothing...but then not sure what they would do.  There is already Scotwashing going on in the foreign office, I've been told.  

I suspect SNP have just been really silly with the funds here though and have been found out.  SNP have to be whiter than white. 

Even people that don't talk about politics are saying how much of a mess the SNP are in.

It's difficult for Yousaf as he's been overshadowed by events and frankly don't think anyone feels like the SNP has a leader right now.

If Sturgeon gets arrested, we're in for a whale of a time. 

[Alibi]

1 hour ago, aaid said:

Parked up on a drive so wouldn’t need to be taxed. 

I think you still need to apply for a SORN.  However I doubt the fine for not doing that is worthy of confiscating the vehicle.  Don't need road tax for a vehicle that is not driven on the road.

[Alibi]

1 hour ago, aaid said:

I think the fact there are problems within HQ are self-evident.   Not sure what the criminality is though.

I see that Sky News are speculating that Nicola Sturgeon is likely to be arrested as she’s the third name along with Murrell and Beattie that signed the reports.  On that basis I’d expect the auditors to be arrested as well.

I understood that NS didn't sign the reports.

[Alibi]

25 minutes ago, PapofGlencoe said:

I don't think it's beyond the state to infiltrate the SNP. .maybe that makes me sound crazy.  Wouldn't be surprised if they listen in and read internal emails, mobiles.  The Spanish did that to the independence supporting Catalan leaders pleading state security - read the pegasus case.  So why wouldn't the UK?  To me it's more naive to think they would do nothing...but then not sure what they would do.  There is already Scotwashing going on in the foreign office, I've been told.  

I suspect SNP have just been really silly with the funds here though and have been found out.  SNP have to be whiter than white. 

Even people that don't talk about politics are saying how much of a mess the SNP are in.

It's difficult for Yousaf as he's been overshadowed by events and frankly don't think anyone feels like the SNP has a leader right now.

If Sturgeon gets arrested, we're in for a whale of a time. 

The arrests and searches look to me like complete overkill.  They are treating this as if Murrell and Beattie are serial mass murderers.  This is not a genuine investigation; it's a performance being put on to try to harm the SNP and the indy movement.  They don't need to find any criminality; they just want to leave people with the impression that the SNP have done something bad even if there are no convictions, and create a situation where the MSM can have a field day and Glenn Shitehawk Campbell can point and shout at Yousaf.  Compare the treatment of Murrell (for whom I have no time at all) and Beattie to that of Michelle Mone who seems to have more or less stolen £120 million - is she having her house searched?  No.  Are the police investigating Russian donations to UK unionist politicians? No.  Why has the fabled Russia support been suppressed?  This police investigation is someone putting on a show with as much high profile exposure as possible.  Ask yourself why.  This has the mucky fingerprints of the British state all over it, even if someone at the SNP has maybe used the ringfenced indyref fund for other cashflow purposes thus giving them an excuse.  They just want to hurt the indy movement.  If this was a genuine fraud enquiry, they wouldn't be doing things the way they are doing them.  and as someone pointed out, amongst the items they have taken away for investigation are a big bag of teabags, some secateurs and a lot of other things that don't make any sense in any police fraud enquiry.  I smell fish.

Edited April 19, 2023 by Alibi

[PapofGlencoe]

2 minutes ago, Alibi said:

The arrests and searches look to me like complete overkill.  They are treating this as if Murrell and Beattie are serial mass murderers.  This not a genuine investigation; it's a performance being put on to try to harm the SNP and the indy.  they don't need to find any criminality; they just want to leave people with the impression that the sNP have done something bad even if there are no convictions.  Compare the treatment of Murrell (for whom I have no time at all) and Beattie to that of Michelle Mone who seems to have more or less stolen £120 million - is she having her house searched?  No.  Are the police investigating Russian donations to UK unionist politicians? No.  Why has the fabled Russia support been suppressed?  This police investigation is someone putting on a show with as much high profile exposure as possible.  Ask yourself why.  This has the mucky fingerprints of the British state all over it, even if someone at the SNP has maybe used the ringfenced indyref fund for other cashflow purposes thus giving them an excuse.  They just want to hurt the indy movement.  If this was a genuine fraud enquiry, they wouldn't be doing things the way they are doing them.  and as someone pointed out, amongst the items they have taken away for investigation are a big bag of teabags, some secateurs and a lot of other things that don't make any sense in any police fraud enquiry.  I smell fish.

Could be both at once.

SNP have done bad and the state making hay with it.

I mean the bus thing alone seems so stupid.  Even at best relying on the excuse of wanting a campaign bus, imagine spending 85-100k on it. You'd only do it with other people's money.  Profligate at best. 

Reading between the lines theyve allegedly used money they shouldnt have and lied about it (I'm kind of hoping thats all at this stage!).  What gets me is why they feel they needed to.  albeit there's been a few more elections but there's been tons, many multiples more members than at any time in their history.  Must have been getting run badly. How on earth did the SNP run 2005/7/11/indy with less than a fifth of the donations?  It doesn't make sense.

[scotlad]

17 hours ago, Dave78 said:

 

It won't be everyone, no. Just the vast majority! 😜

 

I'd agree with that. However, normally the police treat stuff like this more sensitively. They request folk to attend voluntary interviews. This time they've made a spectacle of it (dawn raids and forensic tents FFS!).

I'd like to know who authorised so many officers to attend a supposed fraud investigation, why they felt the investigation required that level of manpower and why they felt a forensic tent was necessary for such an investigation.

If fraud has taken place the only people the SNP are answerable to are their membership - there has been no suggestion (yet) that they've misused public money.  As a taxpayer, though, I'd quite like to know why Police Scotland felt it necessary to spend its budget that way.

1 hour ago, Squirrelhumper said:

Shona Robinson said there are issues with the culture within the SNP headquarters. Live on TV just there. 

Maybe she's a unionist plant too. 

 

Well, she appears to have the IQ of a geranium or a nasturtium (if not the charisma) so maybe she is some kind of plant.

[Squirrelhumper]

2 hours ago, aaid said:

I think the fact there are problems within HQ are self-evident.   Not sure what the criminality is though.

I see that Sky News are speculating that Nicola Sturgeon is likely to be arrested as she’s the third name along with Murrell and Beattie that signed the reports.  On that basis I’d expect the auditors to be arrested as well.

I'd guess the criminality is in relation to why they can't seem to get anyone to audit them. Who knows though. 

Be amazed if the police are just arresting folk willy nilly to prove a political point. 

 

[Squirrelhumper]

36 minutes ago, scotlad said:

 

If fraud has taken place the only people the SNP are answerable to are their membership

Any? Tell Natalie McGarry that. 

I'm sure it wasn't WFI that put her in the clink. 

[mcguffin]

Given how the soap opera is unfolding, maybe Ash Regan and Kate Forbes have dodged a bullet in losing the leadership election?

Not my preference to be FM, but I'm starting to feel a bit sorry for Humza Yousaf. But maybe he can steady the SNP ship, and maybe pave the way for someone else to emerge out of the wreckage?

Edited April 19, 2023 by mcguffin

[Orraloon]

4 hours ago, aaid said:

Parked up on a drive so wouldn’t need to be taxed. 

That doesn't apply anymore unless you do a SORN, which they might have also forgotten about?

[scotlad]

1 hour ago, Squirrelhumper said:

Any? Tell Natalie McGarry that. 

I'm sure it wasn't WFI that put her in the clink. 

Did you read the rest of the sentence?  The point I was trying to make was it was the SNP's membership who have possibly been swindled, not the general public.

It's a big story, yes, and there are serious questions to be answered but the reaction is OTT.

17 minutes ago, mcguffin said:

Given how the soap opera is unfolding, maybe Ash Regan and Kate Forbes have dodged a bullet in losing the leadership election?

Not my preference to be FM, but I'm starting to feel a bit sorry for Humza Yousaf. But maybe he can steady the SNP ship, and maybe pave the way for someone else to emerge out of the wreckage?

They certainly have, and I think Yousaf and his team made a huge error in portraying him as the continuity candidate. Worse still was his appointment of a continuity cabinet littered with dullards.

I doubt he's implicated in anyway (although, you never know) but he's tarnished by virtue of being a Sturgeon-loyalist and a prominent member of her governments. Fairly or unfairly.

The opportunity was there for the membership to elect someone not so tightly knit to the old regime. The scandal would still have emerged but at least there would have been the impression that party - and the country - is under new management. I bet Forbes and Regan are quietly relieved to be on the sidelines just now though!

[Orraloon]

2 hours ago, PapofGlencoe said:

I don't think it's beyond the state to infiltrate the SNP. .maybe that makes me sound crazy.  Wouldn't be surprised if they listen in and read internal emails, mobiles.  The Spanish did that to the independence supporting Catalan leaders pleading state security - read the pegasus case.  So why wouldn't the UK?  To me it's more naive to think they would do nothing...but then not sure what they would do.  There is already Scotwashing going on in the foreign office, I've been told.  

 

Of course they do. You'd need to be mental to think otherwise.

[mcguffin]

9 minutes ago, scotlad said:

Did you read the rest of the sentence?  The point I was trying to make was it was the SNP's membership who have possibly been swindled, not the general public.

It's a big story, yes, and there are serious questions to be answered but the reaction is OTT.

They certainly have, and I think Yousaf and his team made a huge error in portraying him as the continuity candidate. Worse still was his appointment of a continuity cabinet littered with dullards.

I doubt he's implicated in anyway (although, you never know) but he's tarnished by virtue of being a Sturgeon-loyalist and a prominent member of her governments. Fairly or unfairly.

The opportunity was there for the membership to elect someone not so tightly knit to the old regime. The scandal would still have emerged but at least there would have been the impression that party - and the country - is under new management. I bet Forbes and Regan are quietly relieved to be on the sidelines just now though!

You've put my thoughts into words. I agree with you on all points.

[aaid]

9 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

That doesn't apply anymore unless you do a SORN, which they might have also forgotten about?

If they haven’t put it under SORN then fuck them, throw away the key.

I was actually aware of SORN as I have a car under SORN at the moment but stupidly thought no-one would be so pedantic to mention it.  I should’ve known better as Jim Diamond would say. 

[Squirrelhumper]

Colin Beattie has resigned. 

 

[Hertsscot]

2 hours ago, PapofGlencoe said:

What gets me is why they feel they needed to.  albeit there's been a few more elections but there's been tons, many multiples more members than at any time in their history.  Must have been getting run badly. How on earth did the SNP run 2005/7/11/indy with less than a fifth of the donations?  It doesn't make sense.

Fair questions and the amount of secrecy makes the SNP vulnerable to accusation, rumours and conspiracy theories. 

The only thing I would say is that the SNP are pretty much reliant on money from ordinary members whereas who knows whereas other parties are reliant on rich donors, Russian money, dark money etc.