Indyref 2 (2)

[exile]

10 hours ago, StirlingEgg said:

Sometimes I'm not so sure about that; Scotland, its people and politics are of so little consequence to them that we are more likely to be ignored or dismissed. Not even callously but with an almost unconscious disdain. Our parliament is merely an annoyance that occasionally needs slapped down when they need a distraction or they don't want the jockroaches getting above themselves. This attitude filters through everywhere in terms of awareness, understanding or even acknowledgement of Scottish politics with the UK system. 

It's not just Scotland, either. The European parliament was largely regarded with ignorance and disdain, or an annoyance, or something to be poked at when needing a distraction. That ended well.

[Malcolm]

29 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Germany different as they have moved on. Britain has not as they still hanker for the British Empire days and still believe they hold big influence in the world. And would not call just a couple of years ago distant history either.

Rubbish.  There are far right movements in Germany that would go right back to the 40s, and a small proportion of English that still hanker for imperial Britain.  Much the same.

 

[exile]

2 hours ago, Malcolm said:

 

I think our best chance of independence comes when we move past the enormous chip on our shoulder and start acting as a collaborative and equal nation.  The politicising of things like covid is not helpful. After all England would be our closest ally and trading partner.
 

You hit the nail on the head there. Except, you only get to act as 'a collaborative and equal nation' once independent - like Ireland do with aplomb - no need for chips on shoulder when you have equal nation status within EU and UN.

Events since 2014 show that it is impossible to act as a 'collaborative and equal nation' within the Union. It is simply not allowed.

[Malcolm]

27 minutes ago, vanderark14 said:

As recent as last week and last year westminster refuses to let scotland decide its own future. 

 

Scotland had its chance in 2014.  Im not against another referendum but there needs to be a reasonable amount of time, otherwise if we vote leave you can argue that we should have another referendum to rejoin within a few years.

[Caledonian Craig]

7 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

Scotland had its chance in 2014.  Im not against another referendum but there needs to be a reasonable amount of time, otherwise if we vote leave you can argue that we should have another referendum to rejoin within a few years.

And one in 300+ years is reasonable? After all Westminster got its vote on Brexit after less than 50 years.

[Caledonian Craig]

12 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

Rubbish.  There are far right movements in Germany that would go right back to the 40s, and a small proportion of English that still hanker for imperial Britain.  Much the same.

 

No there is a much larger portion in the UK. Or else why aren't the good people of England insisting Scots are listened to and given another referendum since we voted against Brexit and it happened anyway? Nothing like that going on in Germany.

[Caledonian Craig]

And lest we forget Thatcher's pledge that Scotland should have independence when it returned a majority of MP's supporting it. Conveniently ignored. 

[TDYER63]

2 hours ago, Malcolm said:

All of my colleagues and my team are English.  I spend a lot of time in London and I can guarantee you that they don’t see Scotland like that.  Most are entirely respectful of Scotland and want Scotland to be successful, whether that be economically or in a sporting sense.

nicola Sturgeon is disliked down south as most English like the UK and want the status quo.

I think our best chance of independence comes when we move past the enormous chip on our shoulder and start acting as a collaborative and equal nation.  The politicising of things like covid is not helpful. After all England would be our closest ally and trading partner.

 

 

I would imagine your colleagues, like mine, are respectful because they have to be. Thats not to say that’s not what they really feel, but its absolutely because any for of racism would not be tolerated.
And its quite likely also because they are well informed about much Scotland contributes to the UK rather than just reading the nonsense in the papers. That is also why they want us to stay in the UK. 

From my own experience of working with English colleagues and customers its a mixture of respect and disrespect for Scotland . Without a shadow of a doubt we are seen as an annoyance and of insignificance by some, but not all. I have had to sit in meetings with customers who have been so disrespectful to our country it beggars belief. 

You talk about not politicising things and using Covid as an example, when just about everyone in the UK , with the exception of uber unionist, begrudgingly agree the SG did a better job. The fact you use that as a negative example shows your true colours.

Scotland doesn’t have a chip on its shoulder it has a boulder in the shape of the union which suppresses this country at every opportunity. Our best chance of independence is when we collectively stand up for ourselves , we are already an equal we should not have to go kowtowing to Westminster. We are almost 10 years since the last referendum , not a few years, and had Brexit within that time. If you know anything at all about the negative repercussions of Brexit then that alone should be enough for a referendum. People have no idea the cost of this vanity project ,  none whatsoever, like everything else it is papered over by the ever obliging media. 
 

1 hour ago, Malcolm said:

not sure what a little house jock is but you seem to know.  Maybe the English people you meet but the ones I met are well informed. We worked far better with London under Labour than the snp.

Oh ma sides 🤣 You really are taking the piss now. Worked better for who ? 
 

 

[TDYER63]

On 1/25/2024 at 8:27 AM, vanderark14 said:

 

If scotland was genuinely subsidised like so many English toffs and unionists believe, why the fuck would London hang on to scotland? 

 

At the end of the day this is the one question no unionist can answer . None. It is staring people in the face yet they still  cant see it. I really don’t know how you overcome the blindness. 

Edited January 26 by TDYER63

[Caledonian Craig]

4 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

At the end of the day this is the one question no unionist can answer . None. It is staring people in the face yet they still  cant see it. I really don’t know how you overcome the blindness. 

Absolutely. Tories are renowned as a party that sees money as the be all and end all - a welfare scheme for the rich where they work for the better wealth of the rich where they get richer and the poor get poorer. That being the case they are certainly not fighting to keep hold of Scotland so they can subsidise it. It is not rocket science.

[PapofGlencoe]

The English in my experience think about Scotland as much as we think about Wales.  Mostly indifferent with a few sneering.  I don't feel a great love for the country.  It's just up there and not really a figure in most of their plans, and neither should it really.

People can have their own opinions on when referendums should be but the actual decision on when is not an individual one.  It's for everyone collectively in elections to vote for party manifestos.  We're no daft, we don't want referendums every five minutes.  We want one, when we want one.  The collective, democratic "we" here being whoever wins elections.  If it's not winning elections, there has to be some mandate or route.  It can't be upto one individual probably from an Engish constituency, defined by unionism or for that matter scottish nationalism.  It's a collective decision.

Anything else is goalpost moving to suit individual political ideals.  

 

Edited January 26 by PapofGlencoe

[Ally Bongo]

15 hours ago, TDYER63 said:

Thats what I was thinking.Probably the most truthful thing to come out of the whole debacle. The hypocrisy of folk being critical when the whole fucking country thinks the same. Canny wait to see tomorrow’s Daily Mail 😆 

How about the "Scottish" Express 🤣

[Caledonian Craig]

At the end of the day the decision of when to hold a referendum should lie with Scottish Parliament as it is a Scottish matter. We entered into this union through a vote by the politicians of Scotland (most bought off) so why do we now have to ask Westminster just to have a referendum. It is totally unacceptable and unreasonable bordering on dictatorship. I get that there should not be a referendum on regular basis but when catastrophic decisions such as Brexit are made (against what Scotland voted for) then referendum should have been held. Also at times of strong pro-independence MP's voted in for General Elections or Scottish Elections. Nothing unreasonable about that. 

[PapofGlencoe]

23 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

At the end of the day this is the one question no unionist can answer . None. It is staring people in the face yet they still  cant see it. I really don’t know how you overcome the blindness. 

I don't think we are a drain in any shape not form, and think that mantra mostly drained away thankfully in 2014.  The "we'd never survive" doesn't rear it's head in anything like the numbers it used to.  Obviously that's a different thing from would we be "better or worse off".  People a few decades ago genuinely believed we were propped up by London, mad when back then it was the complete opposite but there you are.  Fool me once...

However, I don't think we should underestimate how debasing losing a third of Britain would be to the UK's prestige in the world.  It would be the end of an era, talk of losing security council membership and looking like a rump state in NATO.  The West doesn't want the UK to break up.  We should not underestimate that and even if we were a basket case, i think they'd prop us up.  The UK wouldn't want to lose Scotland anymore than lose the poorest regions of North East of England for the same reason.

Edited January 26 by PapofGlencoe

[Toepoke]

2 hours ago, Malcolm said:

We worked far better with London under Labour than the snp.

Yep sent back £billions to Westminster because they couldn't think what to spend it on, London must've loved it.

 

[StirlingEgg]

3 hours ago, Malcolm said:

All of my colleagues and my team are English.  I spend a lot of time in London and I can guarantee you that they don’t see Scotland like that.  Most are entirely respectful of Scotland and want Scotland to be successful, whether that be economically or in a sporting sense.

nicola Sturgeon is disliked down south as most English like the UK and want the status quo.

I think our best chance of independence comes when we move past the enormous chip on our shoulder and start acting as a collaborative and equal nation.  The politicising of things like covid is not helpful. After all England would be our closest ally and trading partner.

 

 

I'll happily admit I'm brushing chips off my shoulders pretty much daily 🙃 I think there's good reason though; the in your face hypocrisy of the UK govt that isn't called out anywhere except on the likes of this board or other non far reaching social media. 

I know everyone has their own anecdotal experience that feeds into existing views but most friends, family or folk encountered through prev jobs linked to England are all very ignorant of Scottish politics and are simply put out by our 'nationalism'. I'm always disappointed in the likes of the Guardian when even good writers like John Crace just make the same casual dismissive swipes in his columns when it comes to the Scottish govt or Scottish mps. 

When there is talk of folk getting too comfy in their jobs then that to me is what Scottish Labour are all about. They are going along with English Labour on Brexit (and other issues) by not speaking up for Scotland. I think you're mixing up the term collaborative with subservient. Not rocking the boat isn't remotely the same as working as equal nations. The UK govt's corruption and reactive chaotic governance in the pandemic is definitely worth politicising. It's at the heart of their attitude to public funds which is why everything is broken. 

[RanelaghScot]

I sensed a big change in English opinion of Scotland after the referendum.

It was very much a "how dare you" reaction, a disbelief that we'd had the actual audacity to even think about leaving the union.

Many of those that are pro-EU now understand the desire to leave, but for a substantial number south of the border they still react like the offended partner who's partner told them to shape up or they're off.

 

[StirlingEgg]

41 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

How about the "Scottish" Express 🤣

How many stories have there been recently where a UK minister has come away with something unacceptable or 'foul mouthed'? James Cleverly, Lee Anderson, Andrea Jenkyns, Nigel Adams, Dominic Cummings...

 

Yes it is whataboutery because it's never treated the same. They are always somehow justified. Sturgeon has obviously been raging at what they get away with. It's like that time Swinney was on a debate show (can't remember if QT) and asked if BBC/media biased against the SNP and he couldn't say "hell yes!" so didn’t really say anything. That's where those shoulder chips come from. 

Edited January 26 by StirlingEgg

[Alibi]

1 hour ago, Caledonian Craig said:

At the end of the day the decision of when to hold a referendum should lie with Scottish Parliament as it is a Scottish matter. We entered into this union through a vote by the politicians of Scotland (most bought off) so why do we now have to ask Westminster just to have a referendum. It is totally unacceptable and unreasonable bordering on dictatorship. I get that there should not be a referendum on regular basis but when catastrophic decisions such as Brexit are made (against what Scotland voted for) then referendum should have been held. Also at times of strong pro-independence MP's voted in for General Elections or Scottish Elections. Nothing unreasonable about that. 

7 years between referenda is written into the NI good Friday agreement.  Seems reasonable to me.  Also Brexit is itself a justification for another indyref.  I look forward to Anus Sarwar being skewered at the next UK election on Labour's new line that Brexit is now great.  He should be torn to shreds in every interview for that duplicity.

If Yousaf wants to have any chance of not being humiliated, he needs to make the UK election about independence.  Our MPs can't make any difference at WM anyway, so use the election to prioritise the most important issue.  Sadly Yousaf is not an inspiring leader in any way.

[TDYER63]

9 minutes ago, PapofGlencoe said:

I don't think we are a drain in any shape not form, and think that mantra mostly drained away thankfully in 2014.  The "we'd never survive" doesn't rear it's head in anything like the numbers it used to.  Obviously that's a different thing from would we be "better or worse off".  People a few decades ago genuinely believed we were propped up by London, mad when back then it was the complete opposite but there you are.  Fool me once...

However, I don't think we should underestimate how debasing losing a third of Britain would be to the UK's prestige in the world.  It would be the end of an era, talk of losing security council membership and looking like a rump state in NATO.  The West doesn't want the UK to break up.  We should underestimate that.  The UK wouldn't want to lose Scotland anymore than lose the poorest regions of North East of England for the same reason.

I think you maybe underestimate the amount of people who still believe the UK is propping us up. The numbers don’t stack up otherwise as there is not a massive amount of ‘the union at all costs’ support out there.
I do however agree it may now be more to do with ‘ would we be much better off and is it worth the hassle’ .

I mainly agree with your second paragraph. But unionists will never admit to this because , apart from the wealth they are desperate to hold onto from Scotland, it clearly shows we are being used to inflate Britains own sense of importance . They have moved their position from ‘ you need us’ to ‘ we are Better Together’ as they simply cannot afford to tell the truth.

I am not sure either that they would fight for every part of the UK with the same ruthlessness . 

 

[TDYER63]

2 hours ago, RanelaghScot said:

I sensed a big change in English opinion of Scotland after the referendum.

It was very much a "how dare you" reaction, a disbelief that we'd had the actual audacity to even think about leaving the union.

Many of those that are pro-EU now understand the desire to leave, but for a substantial number south of the border they still react like the offended partner who's partner told them to shape up or they're off.

 

I agree with this. It was fine when we knew our place and governed by a pro union party, but they absolutely do not like us voicing strong or different opinions.

Despite the SNP’s woes I cannot see Scotland going back to how it was before and for this reason I think there is no putting the genie back in the lamp and independence will happen. It’s really just a matter of when. 

[Caledonian Craig]

12 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

Despite the SNP’s woes I cannot see Scotland going back to how it was before and for this reason I think there is no putting the genie back in the lamp and independence will happen. It’s really just a matter of when. 

Spot on.

The genie escaped the lamp after the Thatcher reign and it has not and will not go back in. The age of sub-servient Scots who en-masse bought into the crap that the union was pure and just have long gone never to return.

[hampden_loon2878]

NS leaving selected messages purposely to deflect the fact she has deleted 3 month of messages,, why is no one seeing through this?  

[Dave78]

 

6 hours ago, Malcolm said:

Scotland had its chance in 2014.  Im not against another referendum but there needs to be a reasonable amount of time, otherwise if we vote leave you can argue that we should have another referendum to rejoin within a few years.

Nobody that's pro-independence would have a problem with that.

If - after independence - a unionist party wanted a referendum on re-joining, they could put it in their manifesto and win a mandate for it. Y'know, like the SNP and Greens did for indyref2?

 

 

[Dave78]

Just now, hampden_loon2878 said:

NS leaving selected messages purposely to deflect the fact she has deleted 3 month of messages,, why is no one seeing through this?  

No, i think the recent convos were recovered from other people's phones, not Sturgeons.