Indyref 2 (2)

[Squirrelhumper]

1 hour ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Sorry but what you say does not add up - if we are talking about independence here.

Polls on independence are still at the same sort of levels when even Salmond and Sturgeon were at the helm. I'd fully agree with you if support for independence had dipped below 40% but they have not. 

Yes polls for the upcoming GE have been worrying but is it wholly unexpected if you look at the wider picture?

I think his point is that SNP aren't strong enough on independence. Plenty of people will vote Yes if it came to it but feel the SNP aren't doing anywhere near enough to push the case for independence. 

[PapofGlencoe]

People don't believe the SNP are serious about independence and the SNP don't think The People are serious enough about independence to try their luck at forcing the issue.

Bit of a rock and a hard place they are now in.  

Scots don't want to feel forced to vote SNP for independence forever so if Independence has been taken off the table by a weak SNP, enough voters will take the opportunity to give them a bloody nose, especially if they're deemed to have run out of steam as a government.

The positive in all this is Scotland has changed and changed utterly since 2014.  Even an unpopular SNP is still potentially the most popular party and independence is the dominating political issue.  The likes of Kenny Farquarsson and other journalists who think Scots are really just Labour underneath are sorely disappointed.  It's the other way round now.  Much of the electorate are disappointed in the SNP but they don't fundamentally disagree with them or independence.

[Alibi]

1 hour ago, Squirrelhumper said:

I think his point is that SNP aren't strong enough on independence. Plenty of people will vote Yes if it came to it but feel the SNP aren't doing anywhere near enough to push the case for independence. 

Yes, that's exactly what I meant.  If they don't major on indy, they don't really offer anything to attract those who want indy.  In a UK election where the SNP can never get in power, they have to demonstrate a reason to actually vote for them.  Nobody is enthused to vote for being allowed to be told "Section 30? Fuck off. Back in your box".  Which in essence is what they seem to be offering nowadays.  They need to stop being good wee parliamentarians and go down there and kick up fuck at every opportunity, but they won't.

[Hertsscot]

13 minutes ago, Alibi said:

Yes, that's exactly what I meant.  If they don't major on indy, they don't really offer anything to attract those who want indy.  In a UK election where the SNP can never get in power, they have to demonstrate a reason to actually vote for them.  Nobody is enthused to vote for being allowed to be told "Section 30? Fuck off. Back in your box".  Which in essence is what they seem to be offering nowadays.  They need to stop being good wee parliamentarians and go down there and kick up fuck at every opportunity, but they won't.

Tbh unless they are constantly highlighting the anti democratic policy of Westminster that refuses even to discuss how Scotland could be independent then there's not a lot of point them being down there. Yes, they can highlight the deficiencies of the UK internationally or nationally, and they can do a valuable job scrutinising proposed UK legislation but that's not what will get people to vote for them. I see the GE as a vast opinion poll about whether we really want independence and that's why I'll campaign for them.

[Caledonian Craig]

2 hours ago, Alibi said:

Yes, that's exactly what I meant.  If they don't major on indy, they don't really offer anything to attract those who want indy.  In a UK election where the SNP can never get in power, they have to demonstrate a reason to actually vote for them.  Nobody is enthused to vote for being allowed to be told "Section 30? Fuck off. Back in your box".  Which in essence is what they seem to be offering nowadays.  They need to stop being good wee parliamentarians and go down there and kick up fuck at every opportunity, but they won't.

As has been stated time and time again there is no route to independence at present. No referendum without Westminsters say so. No referendum under Section 30 and even when NS and others wanted to make the next GE a defacto referendum they got pelters for it and was seen as unworkable. Barrimg a revolt thete is no legal route to independence so I do not know what you expect the SNP to do. If you prefer a more hardline approach then how so?

[Squirrelhumper]

37 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

As has been stated time and time again there is no route to independence at present. No referendum without Westminsters say so. No referendum under Section 30 and even when NS and others wanted to make the next GE a defacto referendum they got pelters for it and was seen as unworkable. Barrimg a revolt thete is no legal route to independence so I do not know what you expect the SNP to do. If you prefer a more hardline approach then how so?

Be as well just voting for parties taking independence of the the manifesto then. Only reason a lot of folk vote SNP is as a route to independence. 

Who cares if they got pelters for it? They get pelters off the unionist press anyway. They are making a rod for their own back with some of their policies whilst also being scared to mention indy, never mind push for it. It's no wonder their vote share is about to fall off a cliff. Many just won't vote, many soft SNP will go back to Labour and it's entirely predictable. Some of us have been saying this is about to happen. They've gone from a huge membership, a seemingly united party, a clear fight for their main goal of indy, huge support amongst the young voters, to now looking likely to have less MP's at Westminster than Slab. 

[PapofGlencoe]

3 minutes ago, Squirrelhumper said:

Be as well just voting for parties taking independence of the the manifesto then. Only reason a lot of folk vote SNP is as a route to independence. 

Who cares if they got pelters for it? They get pelters off the unionist press anyway. They are making a rod for their own back with some of their policies whilst also being scared to mention indy, never mind push for it. It's no wonder their vote share is about to fall off a cliff. Many just won't vote, many soft SNP will go back to Labour and it's entirely predictable. Some of us have been saying this is about to happen. They've gone from a huge membership, a seemingly united party, a clear fight for their main goal of indy, huge support amongst the young voters, to now looking likely to have less MP's at Westminster than Slab. 

I agree.  They are going to get pelters come what may.  

There is only one route to independence at present, it's a defacto vote which Sturgeon put forward.  It can only come via a majority vote by our people on a one word manifesto.  Even then it's not necessarily going to change anything but it would take the movement forward  in terms of international pressure and grievance.  London could ignore us and get away with it, of course, but then we're in a different game to where we are now.  If nothing else it strengthens the moral hand.

The problem is Sturgeon took us to this point and then left under a cloud.  She pushed the Supreme court angle and then didn't follow through.  

If you're going to push the boat out with a defacto vote, you'd rather do it the once and win than have it and get beat badly.  If Yousaf thought he'd win a defacto vote, he'd call it tomorrow.  That's what I mean by the SNP being weakened but also our own electorate are simply not champing at the bit for a referendum either.  If Sturgeon leaving and police investigations hadn't happened, I think we'd have a chance but the events of last year have scuppered it.  In the cold light of now, I'd say it's possibly better to wait until we have a better leader and win on a second wind.  It does leave the SNP in a difficult spot though.

[Alibi]

4 minutes ago, Squirrelhumper said:

Be as well just voting for parties taking independence of the the manifesto then. Only reason a lot of folk vote SNP is as a route to independence. 

Who cares if they got pelters for it? They get pelters off the unionist press anyway. They are making a rod for their own back with some of their policies whilst also being scared to mention indy, never mind push for it. It's no wonder their vote share is about to fall off a cliff. Many just won't vote, many soft SNP will go back to Labour and it's entirely predictable. Some of us have been saying this is about to happen. They've gone from a huge membership, a seemingly united party, a clear fight for their main goal of indy, huge support amongst the young voters, to now looking likely to have less MP's at Westminster than Slab. 

Spot on.  The current SNP leadership with a few (very few) notable exceptions are a bunch of bland nobodies.  Scared of their own shadows, scared to rock the boat, scared to say anything that the MSM might take exception to.  Meekly accepting whatever WM say - and in doing so, showing they are happy with Scotland being held prisoner in an abusive, coercive union.  I don't recall any of them asking directly - and getting a proper answer to the question - "If this is a voluntary union, what is the procedure for leaving it".  And the answer is not acceptable if it includes any English veto over Scotland doing just that.

[Hertsscot]

4 hours ago, Alibi said:

  I don't recall any of them asking directly - and getting a proper answer to the question - "If this is a voluntary union, what is the procedure for leaving it".  And the answer is not acceptable if it includes any English veto over Scotland doing just that.

And we all know that if England wanted to leave the UK, they just would. They wouldn't need or ask anyone's permission.

[Ally Bongo]

Humza Yousaf will never ever garnish the public support to lead Scotland to Independence as leader of the SNP

I said it when the leadership election started, said it when it finished and still say it

He does not have the personality or character to do it - never mind his religion or past gaffs 

For the SNP to become more radical in trying to achieve Independence they need the people behind them, not apathy.

There is no point hoping that between now and the General Election, Yousaf or any of his mediocre cabinet will be able to pull a rabbit out the hat and lead the SNP into a stonking number of seats

Alternatively the polls might be wrong and the SNP can take that gamble

 

 

[Caledonian Craig]

10 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

Humza Yousaf will never ever garnish the public support to lead Scotland to Independence as leader of the SNP

I said it when the leadership election started, said it when it finished and still say it

He does not have the personality or character to do it - never mind his religion or past gaffs 

For the SNP to become more radical in trying to achieve Independence they need the people behind them, not apathy.

There is no point hoping that between now and the General Election, Yousaf or any of his mediocre cabinet will be able to pull a rabbit out the hat and lead the SNP into a stonking number of seats

Alternatively the polls might be wrong and the SNP can take that gamble

 

 

NOBODY not Salmond not Sturgeon not anyone before those our most illustrious leaders have been able to garnish enough support to lead Scotland to independence so it seems very unfair to use that as a stick to beat Yousaf with.

End of the day I'd much sooner point a finger at the people of Scotland. We are the voters, we are the ones with the power to elect and opt for independence and we bottle it every time. Lets looker closer to home to apportion blame. If we want independence you do whatever you can to give it the best chance of happening. Well that isn't sitting at home scratching your erse on election day moaning about Tories and Labour. It isn't about 'I hate Yousaf' so I am not voting SNP which is a classic case of cutting off your nose to spite your face. At least a vote for SNP is still sending out the message which independence supporters should want to do.

Now of course if it really sticks in people's craws so much to vote SNP then take your vote to Alba and start driving their support up to make them something more of a force above Reform or Lib Dems but I do not see that happening sadly.

 

[StirlingEgg]

12 hours ago, Hertsscot said:

And we all know that if England wanted to leave the UK, they just would. They wouldn't need or ask anyone's permission.

I've pondered that a few times, the possibility that they would eventually demand to go their own way with that ironically leading to our independence. They'd ensure they were wired up to our resources first though then say it was an act of war when we'd ask for it back or some kind of payment...

[TDYER63]

The polls are as depressing as fuck for anyone seriously wanting independence. I think this recent one is overdone but its still going to be hellish unless something changes in the SNP.

But, at the end of the day, the Scottish people have actually got to feel passionate about independence before it will happen. Independence is a long term thing, you could have the most competent government in the world at Holyrood for the transition but that government is still only going to be temporary in a very long list of future governments . It’s what Scotland potential holds that is important and far too many people just cannot , or refuse, to see it. 

It baffles me that people cannot work out that Scotland holds so many valuable resources and still cant work out that we would be a richer country on our own. What do England give us ? East Enders and Coronation st ? 

Waken up Scotland. It’s like the person who works in the same company for 40 years , earning a wage that simply gets them by,  held back by thinking ‘ meh, things could be worse’ . They are too frightened to venture into something different for fear of failure yet they are more than capable of doing greater things. 

Scotland is held back by complacency and lack of confidence. I believe that is the biggest obstacle to overcome. So many countries have become independent and thrive, we all know this. The issues the Scottish people are worried about have not been an issue for these countries, because they are not actually issues at all. They are only issues if you choose them to be. 

[Dave78]

On 4/1/2024 at 9:05 PM, mariokempes said:

Voted snp since 74, never again 

.....
....

It's over and I'll be deid before we see independence.  I hate these bsstards with evert atom. Hate..giid word fir today.

 

I've noticed this seems to drive a lot of the frustration with the current SNP. Old men desperate to see indy before they die, allowing themselves to be manipulated by the culture war into opposing the main vehicle to indy, or even independence itself unless it's on their own narrow terms (as Wings and Thplinth (formerly of this parish) admitted to).

 

 

 

The truth is there's no quick and easy way to indy so soon after bottling our opportunity in 2014. In fact history shows us it's hard to win independence. Like really fucking hard, and usually involves a war. 

True, the SNP might have secured indyref2 during the brexit turmoil. Doing a deal with Theresa May to get her brexit deal through parliament should have been explored. Might not have been possible, but it was an error by Sturgeon not to explore it.

To me that was the problem with her: her tactical errors, not that she was a progressive.

 

On 4/2/2024 at 3:46 PM, Ally Bongo said:

https://www.barrheadboy.com/infiltration-of-the-snp/

 

Another auld guy railing against the SNP. He's obviously an armchair Irish republican. Criticises Sturgeon for bowing down to the English monarch, then ends with an endorsement of the Alba party, led by long-time royalist Alex Salmond? Ok....

For someone so enamoured with the Irish republic, he'd hate it here, what with all the gender recognition reform that's been in place for years with no big hoo-ha. Or the new bottle deposit return scheme that seems to be working smoothly. Or the incoming hate crime laws....

Edited April 6 by Dave78

[Hertsscot]

57 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

The polls are as depressing as fuck for anyone seriously wanting independence. I think this recent one is overdone but its still going to be hellish unless something changes in the SNP.

Scotland is held back by complacency and lack of confidence. I believe that is the biggest obstacle to overcome. So many countries have become independent and thrive, we all know this. The issues the Scottish people are worried about have not been an issue for these countries, because they are not actually issues at all. They are only issues if you choose them to be. 

Under FPTP things could be either very good for the SNP or very bad. Under FPTP small percentage swings in constituencies could lead to a disproportionately large loss or gain of seats. That's a challenge for the SNP but also an incentive as well.

I totally agree how lacking in confidence Scots appear to be. Since moving up here I've not noticed that my neighbours are any more stupid than the ones we had down south, yet many of them believe that they are somehow uniquely incapable of running their own affairs. I can only attribute it to years of brainwashing by the media.

[mariokempes]

1 hour ago, Dave78 said:

 

I've noticed this seems to drive a lot of the frustration with the current SNP. Old men desperate to see indy before they die, allowing themselves to be manipulated by the culture war into opposing the main vehicle to indy, or even independence itself unless it's on their own narrow terms (as Wings and Thplinth (formerly of this parish) admitted to).

 

 

 

The truth is there's no quick and easy way to indy so soon after bottling our opportunity in 2014. In fact history shows us it's hard to win independence. Like really fucking hard, and usually involves a war. 

True, the SNP might have secured indyref2 during the brexit turmoil. Doing a deal with Theresa May to get her brexit deal through parliament should have been explored. Might not have been possible, but it was an error by Sturgeon not to explore it.

To me that was the problem with her: her tactical errors, not that she was a progressive.

 

 

Another auld guy railing against the SNP. He's obviously an armchair Irish republican. Criticises Sturgeon for bowing down to the English monarch, then ends with an endorsement of the Alba party, led by long-time royalist Alex Salmond? Ok....

For someone so enamoured with the Irish republic, he'd hate it here, what with all the gender recognition reform that's been in place for years with no big hoo-ha. Or the new bottle deposit return scheme that seems to be working smoothly. Or the incoming hate crime laws....

Guff. I'm being manipulated by nobody. The snp under leadership since Salmond left are no longer a party of independence.  Not for one minute. If they were offered a vote they'd shit the bed. 10 years of utter betrayal. Totally captured. 

[hampden_loon2878]

the worst thing IMHO opinion the snp could do in the next election, is run it along side independence, humza and the current crop of SNP lot will do serious damage to independence in association alone,, i dont think folk are grasping the scale on disapproval of the snp atm 

[TDYER63]

3 hours ago, Dave78 said:

 

I've noticed this seems to drive a lot of the frustration with the current SNP. Old men desperate to see indy before they die, allowing themselves to be manipulated by the culture war into opposing the main vehicle to indy, or even independence itself unless it's on their own narrow terms (as Wings and Thplinth (formerly of this parish) admitted to).

 

 

 

The truth is there's no quick and easy way to indy so soon after bottling our opportunity in 2014. In fact history shows us it's hard to win independence. Like really fucking hard, and usually involves a war. 

True, the SNP might have secured indyref2 during the brexit turmoil. Doing a deal with Theresa May to get her brexit deal through parliament should have been explored. Might not have been possible, but it was an error by Sturgeon not to explore it.

To me that was the problem with her: her tactical errors, not that she was a progressive.

 

 

Another auld guy railing against the SNP. He's obviously an armchair Irish republican. Criticises Sturgeon for bowing down to the English monarch, then ends with an endorsement of the Alba party, led by long-time royalist Alex Salmond? Ok....

For someone so enamoured with the Irish republic, he'd hate it here, what with all the gender recognition reform that's been in place for years with no big hoo-ha. Or the new bottle deposit return scheme that seems to be working smoothly. Or the incoming hate crime laws....

agree with absolutely everything you have said. 
 

[TDYER63]

3 hours ago, Hertsscot said:

Under FPTP things could be either very good for the SNP or very bad. Under FPTP small percentage swings in constituencies could lead to a disproportionately large loss or gain of seats. That's a challenge for the SNP but also an incentive as well.

I totally agree how lacking in confidence Scots appear to be. Since moving up here I've not noticed that my neighbours are any more stupid than the ones we had down south, yet many of them believe that they are somehow uniquely incapable of running their own affairs. I can only attribute it to years of brainwashing by the media.

I have mentioned before on here my husband reads the Daily Mail. He gets really defensive about it which in itself says everything , so I don’t usually talk about , he knows how I feel about it.

But last week, after weeks and weeks of anti SNP headlines I said to him ‘ have you ever, once, in all the years you have read that paper read anything at all positive about the Scottish Government? 
He said ‘no’. So I said  ‘ do you think in the last 20 years the Scottish government has done absolutely nothing good ? 
He said ‘no’.
So I said  ‘ so why would you give your money to a media outlet who spouts lies , hides facts, and manipulates people ? 
He couldn’t answer. He is not a stupid person, far from it, but so many people are influenced by what they read, its truly frightening and is understandable why its a struggle to win people over. 

 

[Hertsscot]

8 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

I have mentioned before on here my husband reads the Daily Mail. He gets really defensive about it which in itself says everything , so I don’t usually talk about , he knows how I feel about it.

But last week, after weeks and weeks of anti SNP headlines I said to him ‘ have you ever, once, in all the years you have read that paper read anything at all positive about the Scottish Government? 
He said ‘no’. So I said  ‘ do you think in the last 20 years the Scottish government has done absolutely nothing good ? 
He said ‘no’.
So I said  ‘ so why would you give your money to a media outlet who spouts lies , hides facts, and manipulates people ? 
He couldn’t answer. He is not a stupid person, far from it, but so many people are influenced by what they read, its truly frightening and is understandable why its a struggle to win people over. 

 

You mentioned complacency in your earlier post, that's also true. Many voters up here take good stuff for granted, and fail to acknowledge how the SNP have provided some sort of buffer from the Tories. I had some dental treatment the other week and it would have cost more than double in England! Thames Water is broke and one possibility will be to renationalise it (no doubt Scots taxpayers will pay their 'fair share'), then there's e coli in the Thames, strikes on the trains, strikes by junior doctors and the largest teaching union looks like it will be balloting for strike action, record amount of student debt etc. but the media gives the impression that everything in Scotland is automatically crappier than down south.

[Dave78]

4 hours ago, mariokempes said:

Guff. I'm being manipulated by nobody. The snp under leadership since Salmond left are no longer a party of independence.  Not for one minute. If they were offered a vote they'd shit the bed. 10 years of utter betrayal. Totally captured. 

I honestly dunno what that means. Can you elaborate?

Captured by who? Unionists?

[StirlingEgg]

4 hours ago, TDYER63 said:

I have mentioned before on here my husband reads the Daily Mail. He gets really defensive about it which in itself says everything , so I don’t usually talk about , he knows how I feel about it.

But last week, after weeks and weeks of anti SNP headlines I said to him ‘ have you ever, once, in all the years you have read that paper read anything at all positive about the Scottish Government? 
He said ‘no’. So I said  ‘ do you think in the last 20 years the Scottish government has done absolutely nothing good ? 
He said ‘no’.
So I said  ‘ so why would you give your money to a media outlet who spouts lies , hides facts, and manipulates people ? 
He couldn’t answer. He is not a stupid person, far from it, but so many people are influenced by what they read, its truly frightening and is understandable why its a struggle to win people over. 

 

Maybe it's the perception of too much continuity that's putting folk off. Even though they are very different leaders; Salmond and Sturgeon were close then Yousaf takes over as her preferred candidate. I liked listening to what Salmond had to say and found his passion quite infectious but hardly anyone else I knew liked him or how he came across. He or Alba are sadly not the key missing piece in the puzzle. 

I think the complacency element mentioned above is pretty relevant. We don't realise how much we have compared to UK govt policy and need to get on top of the "they're all the same" narrative. They were a bit bolder on Have I Got News For You the other night re highlighting Tory govt disgrace but that stuff should be highlighted at every opportunity in parliament and on the front pages, not a light entertainment show. Sunak's father-in-law's firm getting a lucrative NHS contract and the water companies just being a bullshit investment vehicle - how are these situations even legal?

There was a discussion in the Scottish Parliament about availability of dental treatment and the Rutherglen Labour guy (can't mind his name) put something forward to remind folk that Labour had introduced the successful Childsmile programme. This was nearly 20 years ago! That's all Labour have - moans about SNP taking credit for stuff. No-one cares about taking credit, it's about keeping/removing/introducing based on Scotland’s needs. It doesn’t seem obvious enough those needs could be best addressed via independence. 

[TDYER63]

11 hours ago, StirlingEgg said:

Maybe it's the perception of too much continuity that's putting folk off. Even though they are very different leaders; Salmond and Sturgeon were close then Yousaf takes over as her preferred candidate. I liked listening to what Salmond had to say and found his passion quite infectious but hardly anyone else I knew liked him or how he came across. He or Alba are sadly not the key missing piece in the puzzle. 

I think the complacency element mentioned above is pretty relevant. We don't realise how much we have compared to UK govt policy and need to get on top of the "they're all the same" narrative. They were a bit bolder on Have I Got News For You the other night re highlighting Tory govt disgrace but that stuff should be highlighted at every opportunity in parliament and on the front pages, not a light entertainment show. Sunak's father-in-law's firm getting a lucrative NHS contract and the water companies just being a bullshit investment vehicle - how are these situations even legal?

There was a discussion in the Scottish Parliament about availability of dental treatment and the Rutherglen Labour guy (can't mind his name) put something forward to remind folk that Labour had introduced the successful Childsmile programme. This was nearly 20 years ago! That's all Labour have - moans about SNP taking credit for stuff. No-one cares about taking credit, it's about keeping/removing/introducing based on Scotland’s needs. It doesn’t seem obvious enough those needs could be best addressed via independence. 

Despite a few people on here having a bit of a love in with AS you are absolutely right, he was not a popular politician. He alienated as many people as he won over. He is a fantastic orator and extremely sharp, even his critics admit that, but there is just something that puts people off him. Think he is just a bit too smug for a lot of folk. 
The one positive thing to take from this is that we got to 45% with a leader who was marmite. Getting the right person in charge is so important, but it’s not Humza. There was a footballing analogy used on here recently, well on a similar theme I would say that in the same way the national team is crying out for a quality striker to take us to the next level, the SNP need a quality leader to get us independence. We are so close, the polls are holding up after 10 years, but we need the right person to lead from the front. 
I totally agree with Loon that the best we can do just now is have someone in charge of the SNP that will steady the ship. Independence is a lost cause till that happens. I think, like Dave78, a lot of people have bought into the media’s frenzied headlines and making certain controversial policies sound like Scotland is the only country in the world attempting them. The difference being these other countries are already independent and dont have a WM government and entire mainstream media criticising absolutely everything they are doing. 
As far as Labour is concerned, I doubt any Child is smiling when things like PFI contracts are mentioned. One of many great Labour legacies.

But but, … the ferries. 
 

[Orraloon]

21 hours ago, Dave78 said:

 

I've noticed this seems to drive a lot of the frustration with the current SNP. Old men desperate to see indy before they die, allowing themselves to be manipulated by the culture war into opposing the main vehicle to indy, or even independence itself unless it's on their own narrow terms (as Wings and Thplinth (formerly of this parish) admitted to).

 

 

 

The truth is there's no quick and easy way to indy so soon after bottling our opportunity in 2014. In fact history shows us it's hard to win independence. Like really fucking hard, and usually involves a war. 

True, the SNP might have secured indyref2 during the brexit turmoil. Doing a deal with Theresa May to get her brexit deal through parliament should have been explored. Might not have been possible, but it was an error by Sturgeon not to explore it.

To me that was the problem with her: her tactical errors, not that she was a progressive.

 

 

Another auld guy railing against the SNP. He's obviously an armchair Irish republican. Criticises Sturgeon for bowing down to the English monarch, then ends with an endorsement of the Alba party, led by long-time royalist Alex Salmond? Ok....

For someone so enamoured with the Irish republic, he'd hate it here, what with all the gender recognition reform that's been in place for years with no big hoo-ha. Or the new bottle deposit return scheme that seems to be working smoothly. Or the incoming hate crime laws....

It's just the old "divide and rule" tactic. Seems to work most of the time. You would think folk would have sussed this tactic out by now, but no, people just keep on falling for it. Maybe we are too ignorant to be independent?

[hampden_loon2878]

3 hours ago, TDYER63 said:

Despite a few people on here having a bit of a love in with AS you are absolutely right, he was not a popular politician. He alienated as many people as he won over. He is a fantastic orator and extremely sharp, even his critics admit that, but there is just something that puts people off him. Think he is just a bit too smug for a lot of folk. 
The one positive thing to take from this is that we got to 45% with a leader who was marmite. Getting the right person in charge is so important, but it’s not Humza. There was a footballing analogy used on here recently, well on a similar theme I would say that in the same way the national team is crying out for a quality striker to take us to the next level, the SNP need a quality leader to get us independence. We are so close, the polls are holding up after 10 years, but we need the right person to lead from the front. 
I totally agree with Loon that the best we can do just now is have someone in charge of the SNP that will steady the ship. Independence is a lost cause till that happens. I think, like Dave78, a lot of people have bought into the media’s frenzied headlines and making certain controversial policies sound like Scotland is the only country in the world attempting them. The difference being these other countries are already independent and dont have a WM government and entire mainstream media criticising absolutely everything they are doing. 
As far as Labour is concerned, I doubt any Child is smiling when things like PFI contracts are mentioned. One of many great Labour legacies.

But but, … the ferries. 
 

he alienated unionists correct, however he had 51% of indigenous scots vote for independence.