Indyref 2 (2)

[TDYER63]

2 hours ago, Alibi said:

My SNP membership has expired and I haven't bothered renewing.  I have no interest in going to local branch meetings where all they do is read out reports on how many members the branch has.  There is no actual discussion of policies or ideas.  I'm fairly sure most of them have meekly fallen in line with gender self-ID and I'm pretty sure the recently elected convener is of the wokerati persuasion.  Having seen the statements coming out of the conference, I am not inspired.  Marcus Carlaw, whoever he is, seems to have taken it upon himself to dampen expectations and prevent any progress with indy.  The leadership, collectively, are a bunch of virtue signalling nobodies and there is zero chance of them achieving anything.  Fairly sure several of them are shall we say compromised.  I really don't know where we go from here, but Yousaf is not the answer.  He's a fucking liability, bowing to the will of the unionist press, scared to take any meaningful action on anything, and making daft virtue signalling statements that are almost designed specifically to shed votes.  He's no Alex Salmond, that's for sure.  I did wonder if the current ongoing police investigation is not actually about money but about the failed plot to have Salmond imprisoned, although I'd have no faith in the police service doing the right thing there.

Seriously considering moving abroad for my retirement.

If it wasn’t for my children and friends I would seriously consider moving abroad. I know to a lot of people that sounds ridiculously extreme, but this strive for independence sometimes feels like an itch that just cannot be treated. It’s exhausting and at times painful.
In a way it may have been better if 2014 never happened , its the hope that kills you. 

[hampden_loon2878]

22 hours ago, TDYER63 said:

If it wasn’t for my children and friends I would seriously consider moving abroad. I know to a lot of people that sounds ridiculously extreme, but this strive for independence sometimes feels like an itch that just cannot be treated. It’s exhausting and at times painful.
In a way it may have been better if 2014 never happened , its the hope that kills you. 

Aye it’s hard going ATM, I have taken a step back from promoting independence and will conserve my energy for when we actually have a chance, the main thing just now is the survival of the SNP as a credible party 

[TDYER63]

1 hour ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

Aye it’s hard going ATM, I have taken a step back from promoting independence and will conserve my energy for when we actually have a chance, the main thing just now is the survival of the SNP as a credible party 

👍 you are right. The first thing to ensure a credible party is having a credible leader and unfortunately I dont think Humza is that.
The UK has had umpteen PM’s that are totally useless, useless leaders are not a new thing, but to gain people’s trust for something like independence you need to have an edge and he doesn’t have it. 

But they say  nothing worth having is  gotten easily so will just have to try and be patient and steer things the right way. 

[mariokempes]

3 hours ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

Aye it’s hard going ATM, I have taken a step back from promoting independence and will conserve my energy for when we actually have a chance, the main thing just now is the survival of the SNP as a credible party 

For the snp to be credible they'd need to dump at least 60% of their woke fruitcakes.  Or better still the destruction of the whole party.  Oh and jail the Sturgeons at the very least. 

[Ally Bongo]

16 minutes ago, mariokempes said:

Oh and jail the Sturgeons at the very least. 

Unfortunately being devolutionalists/bad strategists isnt a crime

[mariokempes]

4 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

Unfortunately being devolutionalists/bad strategists isnt a crime

There are other crimes. Though I'd argue the destruction of the snp as an Indy party is the greatest crime.

[hampden_loon2878]

1 hour ago, mariokempes said:

There are other crimes. Though I'd argue the destruction of the snp as an Indy party is the greatest crime.

Can’t disagree with that

[Broath Boy]

Look, we need to move on from Nicola and Alex, weather you like it or not the only tool in Scotlands box is SNP, and the ONLY time we will get a chance to vote is when Westminster says so, THERE IS NO OTHER WAY, it’s going to be 10years plus when we get another vote, so what I’m saying is Ecks gone Nicolas gone loose bitching about SNP, and use them for the next vote.

[Alibi]

13 hours ago, Broath Boy said:

Look, we need to move on from Nicola and Alex, weather you like it or not the only tool in Scotlands box is SNP, and the ONLY time we will get a chance to vote is when Westminster says so, THERE IS NO OTHER WAY, it’s going to be 10years plus when we get another vote, so what I’m saying is Ecks gone Nicolas gone loose bitching about SNP, and use them for the next vote.

The very definition of a coercive relationship.  We in Scotland do not have democracy as our votes can easily be cancelled out by the electorate in England.  If Scotland voted 100% for independence, we still wouldn't get it because any PM from any of the English parties would just say no, and what could we do about it?  We were only "allowed" a referendum in 2014 because they thought they would win it easily.  Now, they know they would almost certainly lose and given that indy support is at 50% or slightly more even with absolutely no campaigning going on, there is no chance it would be allowed.  Starmer has made it clear he won't accede to a vote in Scotland to have a referendum; David Lammy said the same in even stronger terms the other week (and claimed that the branch office would be of the same view).  Not sure where we go from here, but the British establishment will stop at nothing to prevent Scotland becoming independence, ever.  They'd be quite happy to invade us if it came to that. with the approval of the USA likely, given Faslane.

We like to think we have a free democracy.  We don't really.

[aaid]

16 minutes ago, Alibi said:

They'd be quite happy to invade us if it came to that. with the approval of the USA likely, given Faslane.

 

But Ally Bongo thinks its simply a case of declare UDI and ask for international recognition.

[Ally Bongo]

24 minutes ago, aaid said:

But Ally Bongo thinks its simply a case of declare UDI and ask for international recognition.

When someone lies you know they have already lost

[aaid]

3 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

When someone lies you know they have already lost

That was what Wings was saying in the article you posted as your view on “how to”. 

[Alibi]

4 hours ago, aaid said:

But Ally Bongo thinks its simply a case of declare UDI and ask for international recognition.

I think a lot of countries would be happy to recognise an indy Scotland.  However some might try to quash the idea - England and the US for example.  They are two of the bullies of international relations, and an indy Scotland would affect their own personal agendas.

[Ally Bongo]

50 minutes ago, aaid said:

That was what Wings was saying in the article you posted as your view on “how to”. 

I also posted, amongst other things, Douglas Chapman's "Perth Amendment" to SNP's Independence strategy which was also booted out

There are a few "how to do it" strategies but as they put the SNP pensions in jeopardy they are attacked like you did above. 

 

[PapofGlencoe]

We're too busy thinking about who/who wouldn't recognise, what London would say,, we've forgotten we need to provide the defacto vote policy to trigger any conversation at all.

we're in a post supreme court case age and the defacto vote is the only viable response that puts the ball back in the court of public opinion in a serious way.  You're simply not going to get the SNP as a milder form of the Labour party (which some of the gravy train want) getting more than 50% of the vote ever again without it.  That's my prediction.  I think Pete Wishart gets it.

[Alibi]

3 hours ago, PapofGlencoe said:

We're too busy thinking about who/who wouldn't recognise, what London would say,, we've forgotten we need to provide the defacto vote policy to trigger any conversation at all.

we're in a post supreme court case age and the defacto vote is the only viable response that puts the ball back in the court of public opinion in a serious way.  You're simply not going to get the SNP as a milder form of the Labour party (which some of the gravy train want) getting more than 50% of the vote ever again without it.  That's my prediction.  I think Pete Wishart gets it.

Yes, without elections having a consequence (independence) not only will the vote for indy parties drop, it's likely that the turnout at elections will also plummet.  I for one will never vote for a party that doesn't support indy because if I did vote for a yoon party, they might take my vote as an indication that I'm happy with unionism.  If we're going to have to live in a situation where indy is not being promoted by anyone, then fuck politics.  Democracy is dead.Until such time as the infiltrators presently calling the shots are dragged screaming from parliament and burned at the stake. (metaphorically speaking, not literally).

[scotlad]

26 minutes ago, Alibi said:

Yes, without elections having a consequence (independence) not only will the vote for indy parties drop, it's likely that the turnout at elections will also plummet.  I for one will never vote for a party that doesn't support indy because if I did vote for a yoon party, they might take my vote as an indication that I'm happy with unionism.  If we're going to have to live in a situation where indy is not being promoted by anyone, then fuck politics.  Democracy is dead.Until such time as the infiltrators presently calling the shots are dragged screaming from parliament and burned at the stake. (metaphorically speaking, not literally).

Lightweight.  😉

Seriously though, I agree. If the SNP aren't actively pursuing indy then what really is the point in voting for them next year, especially when there is a much easier way to achieve the second best outcome (albeit by a considerable distance), i.e. removing the Tories from power?

Anyone claiming to be pro-indy who's pushing the line that the SNP needs to row back from talking about independence - and I've seen a few - is for the watching, IMO.

[PapofGlencoe]

18 minutes ago, scotlad said:

Lightweight.  😉

Seriously though, I agree. If the SNP aren't actively pursuing indy then what really is the point in voting for them next year, especially when there is a much easier way to achieve the second best outcome (albeit by a considerable distance), i.e. removing the Tories from power?

Anyone claiming to be pro-indy who's pushing the line that the SNP needs to row back from talking about independence - and I've seen a few - is for the watching, IMO.

No, you've not got the memo... what they need to do is talk about the "cost of living crisis" because that will really differentiate them from everyone else that isn't talking about it.. or something.😆 Genius.  

one of the main points of indy is precisely to manage these economic events better, it's the antidote.  You'd have to wonder what these people would have said in the 70s with the three day week.  SNP indy campaign wouldn't have got off the ground.  Do these trumped up blowhards think we're doing all this only because we've watched braveheart too many times?  Turkeys voting for christmas.

I've said a few times, of the 20 people in my immediate circle most are pro -indy and most have said they're sick of the SNP and think Labour deserve a shot.  The rest are probably secretly Tories..  If Sturgeon's plan after the Court verdict had morphed (as it looked like it would in December and had the likes of Kenny Farquarsson squirming..), into a fully fledged defacto referendum campaign..these people would have held their nose.  Arrests and Indy off the table, they'll vote for the only thing on offer, kicking out the tories.

[Ally Bongo]

Would be good if Aaid was to listen to the first 15 minutes and see if the penny drops

 

[slasher]

On 10/20/2023 at 11:33 AM, TDYER63 said:

If it wasn’t for my children and friends I would seriously consider moving abroad. I know to a lot of people that sounds ridiculously extreme, but this strive for independence sometimes feels like an itch that just cannot be treated. It’s exhausting and at times painful.
In a way it may have been better if 2014 never happened , its the hope that kills you. 

Same here except I’ve completely given up on the notion of independence in my lifetime. I’m more annoyed at the stupidity of my fellow countrymen and women than I am at politicians tbh.

 I’m actively looking at property abroad and may have a way in to an EU passport which will be shamelessly pursued now!

[Ally Bongo]

1 hour ago, slasher said:

Same here except I’ve completely given up on the notion of independence in my lifetime. I’m more annoyed at the stupidity of my fellow countrymen and women than I am at politicians tbh.

 I’m actively looking at property abroad and may have a way in to an EU passport which will be shamelessly pursued now!

A week is a long time in politics and as in the words of Penelope Cruz in Vanilla Sky "It only takes a second to turn everything around"

That being said i just saw SNP loyalists/staffer accounts retweet a poll suggesting the SNP are on road to win 47 seats at the General Election

Clearly that is so a million miles away from reality it is laughable 

As i have said i cannot see any event that will allow the SNP to reinvent itself before the next election and it is more likely it will only happen after a wipeout

But it is possible and can happen overnight if it is drastic enough

[Alibi]

18 hours ago, PapofGlencoe said:

No, you've not got the memo... what they need to do is talk about the "cost of living crisis" because that will really differentiate them from everyone else that isn't talking about it.. or something.😆 Genius.  

one of the main points of indy is precisely to manage these economic events better, it's the antidote.  You'd have to wonder what these people would have said in the 70s with the three day week.  SNP indy campaign wouldn't have got off the ground.  Do these trumped up blowhards think we're doing all this only because we've watched braveheart too many times?  Turkeys voting for christmas.

I've said a few times, of the 20 people in my immediate circle most are pro -indy and most have said they're sick of the SNP and think Labour deserve a shot.  The rest are probably secretly Tories..  If Sturgeon's plan after the Court verdict had morphed (as it looked like it would in December and had the likes of Kenny Farquarsson squirming..), into a fully fledged defacto referendum campaign..these people would have held their nose.  Arrests and Indy off the table, they'll vote for the only thing on offer, kicking out the tories.

How stupid are these people?  Labour is every bit as unionist as the Tories; they support Brexit; they want to bring back tuition fees, prescription charges, car parking charges, bridge tolls, you name it, they want to bring Scotland into line with England.  They will refuse a section 30 for at least ten years (said by David Lammy just a few days ago).  They are de facto Tories, if maybe from a few years ago rather than the current iteration.  Why the fuck would anyone who has the remotest interest in winning back our independence vote for these charlatans?  Let any yoon party get control of Scotland and devolution will be neutered and once that is done the only way to indy is a full scale revolution.  But hey, let's give Labour their turn until the Tories get back in in a few years and nothing changes.

I have a slight chance of getting a Ukrainian passport (and possibly a Russian one (as Lithuania was apparently part of Russia when my paternal grandfather was born there).  No idea how to go about it but it's becoming a tempting idea.

[Orraloon]

1 hour ago, Alibi said:

How stupid are these people?  Labour is every bit as unionist as the Tories; they support Brexit; they want to bring back tuition fees, prescription charges, car parking charges, bridge tolls, you name it, they want to bring Scotland into line with England.  They will refuse a section 30 for at least ten years (said by David Lammy just a few days ago).  They are de facto Tories, if maybe from a few years ago rather than the current iteration.  Why the fuck would anyone who has the remotest interest in winning back our independence vote for these charlatans?  Let any yoon party get control of Scotland and devolution will be neutered and once that is done the only way to indy is a full scale revolution.  But hey, let's give Labour their turn until the Tories get back in in a few years and nothing changes.

I have a slight chance of getting a Ukrainian passport (and possibly a Russian one (as Lithuania was apparently part of Russia when my paternal grandfather was born there).  No idea how to go about it but it's becoming a tempting idea.

You want to go and live in Ukraine because some guy on the TAMB has got pals who are thick as shit? Seems a wee bit extreme to me, like. 🤣

[Dave78]

14 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

Would be good if Aaid was to listen to the first 15 minutes and see if the penny drops

 

 

I gave it 21 minutes.

Lots of good venting about the failure of the SNP to secure indyref2, but nothing i heard will make aaid change his view. Mainly because they weren't offering realistic alternatives on what the SNP should have done.

Your posting of that Wings article did help in that regard to be fair. Although the moment for that has passed. 

 

14 hours ago, slasher said:

Same here except I’ve completely given up on the notion of independence in my lifetime.

For some reason i always thought you were in your 40s, no?

I'm 45 and expect to see a Yes vote in indyref2 in the next 10-15 years, so within my lifetime.

 

13 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

As i have said i cannot see any event that will allow the SNP to reinvent itself before the next election and it is more likely it will only happen after a wipeout

 

Some kind of electoral kicking is required.

For holyrood, i've been coming round to the idea of the 'radical flank effect' in the shape of Salmond's Alba party.

So we end up having 3 pro-indy parties in holyrood. The radical/hard left of the Greens, radical/hard right of Alba, and the centrist managerial soft-left of the SNP.

[aaid]

1 hour ago, Dave78 said:

 

So we end up having 3 pro-indy parties in holyrood. The radical/hard left of the Greens, radical/hard right of Alba, and the centrist managerial soft-left of the SNP.

I don’t see where you get this view of Alba as a radical hard right party.  Their economic view is pretty much left wing or at least those who seem to be driving their economic policies are, ie, George Kerevan.  They differ from the Greens as they don’t tend to care much about the environment and their model seems to be about central rather than local control.  They remind me a lot of sections of 1980s Labour complete with the small ‘c’ conservatism.

Edited October 24, 2023 by aaid