Indyref 2 (2)

[Hertsscot]

7 hours ago, Kirk said:

Basically feel the same totally scunnered with it all. Got told I was a unionist on FB the other night as I said the SNP was a shambles. Some folk just canny see sense or reason. They're falling apart and as someone else said there's no chance of a second Indyref anytime soon

There is a defensiveness about some (many?) SNP politicians and members which is completely counter productive. The Greens are even worse. Messaging around some policies has been extremely poor and there has been a seeming failure to engage with those who have got legitimate concerns about those issues. This failure to communicate and to listen come across as arrogant and both the SNP and Greens need to wake up to that.

[Hertsscot]

And another reminder why England needs us

https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest/all-planning-consents-now-granted-for-2-1bn-electricity-superhighway-between-england-and-scotland-25-08-2023/

 

[TDYER63]

2 hours ago, Hertsscot said:

There is a defensiveness about some (many?) SNP politicians and members which is completely counter productive. The Greens are even worse. Messaging around some policies has been extremely poor and there has been a seeming failure to engage with those who have got legitimate concerns about those issues. This failure to communicate and to listen come across as arrogant and both the SNP and Greens need to wake up to that.

Completely agree. Hence the need for SNP or Green members/voters to speak up . I am only in the SNP for independence so its no skin off my nose to say things that they don’t like to hear. More or less anyone can join a political party , go to meetings and speak your mind ( I dont mean you, you are already doing things) . Change can only happen from within. People can either try and change it or wait till its too late. 

You are a teacher and it’s probably in your make up to persevere with things and try to be objective and find ways to educate and change things that aren’t working . You are exactly the type of person that is needed. 
 

10 hours ago, Kirk said:

Basically feel the same totally scunnered with it all. Got told I was a unionist on FB the other night as I said the SNP was a shambles. Some folk just canny see sense or reason. They're falling apart and as someone else said there's no chance of a second Indyref anytime soon

I think it’s clear from polling that you are not alone, whoever is accusing you of being a unionist is either blind or living in cuckoo land. 

I know not everyone has the time , or even interest, in getting involved in politics. But from an independence point of view there are things that folk can do to at least make it known support is there, even if you are not happy with the SNP. Have you been to a march in the last few years ? Can you imagine the signal it would send  if everyone turned up in Edinburgh , the capital city, next week . A huge turnout could not be ignored. I urge  anyone who is the least bit interested in independence to go along and be seen . 

[Ally Bongo]

 

Alex Salmond

 

@AlexSalmond

 

The decision of

@AlbaParty ’s National Council today not to contest the Rutherglen and Hamilton West by-election offers “one last chance” for a #ScotlandUnited approach to the General Election

[scotlad]

On 8/25/2023 at 3:12 PM, PapofGlencoe said:

i agree wuth you but i'm less worried about certain aspects, they'll harp on like that but everyone and their granny knows Scots are split down the middle on the big question.  if they try to portray it any other way, we're big enough and ugly enough nowadays to know it's not true.  We're not the Scotland of the 1990s anymore.

That's true, we're not. But as a general rule, I'm certain no unionist administration in HR - particularly a Labour unionist administration - would face the same level of scrutiny or, barring something genuinely disastrous (and I don't mean a couple of over-budget ferries), the same kind of negative press as a pro-independence administration.

On 8/25/2023 at 3:20 PM, PapofGlencoe said:

There are plenty people who support the Green agenda by the way and quite like Patrick Harvie.  My wife included!  Despite the noise, the greens are a growing party and a significant part of the independence future.  The strategy in the here and now has been led up a jaggy, boggy hill and poorly managed... but if there's anything London fear, it's the demographic shift occurring.  The Greens are part of that.  

Also see those that think we can't have a Bottle return scheme and whinge about heat pumps; honestly, they're being played.  These are reasonable policies I expect any green party to put forward (and glad the SNP agreed too).

It's such a waste of hot energy attacking the greens, in my view.  

Aye, the deposit return scheme in particular was a reasonable policy. Poorly implemented, perhaps, but a decent idea that's been shown to work elsewhere (I don't know why they didn't just copy an existing scheme).

What annoys people about the Greens - as has been discussed at length on here - is the over-focus on identity politics.

[Hertsscot]

24 minutes ago, scotlad said:

That's true, we're not. But as a general rule, I'm certain no unionist administration in HR - particularly a Labour unionist administration - would face the same level of scrutiny or, barring something genuinely disastrous (and I don't mean a couple of over-budget ferries), the same kind of negative press as a pro-independence administration.

You're absolutely right. The media bias though is not obvious to many Scots. To anyone who's lived outside of Scotland it is as clear as day. I've commented several times on how issues, particularly in health, are politicised in a way that NEVER happens in England.

Another example is reporting which seems to indicate that the problem only affects Scots and thus undermines the case for independence. There was an example of this I noticed earlier this week or the end of last week. I can't remember the exact case but it's headlines along the lines of 'Scots face mortgage misery' or 'Scots councils cut key services'. In both examples the use of 'Scots' suggests that it is only a problem for Scots and the implication is that it is only  because of mismanagement by the Scottish Government. You simply NEVER get headlines that in England. Such headlines would just be 'Millions face mortgage misery' or 'Councils cut key services'.

[Caledonian Craig]

I must say I fully agree with Salmond's plans for Scotland United.

At present the SNP is akin to a dying carcass (election-wise) with the vultures picking away at it. The vultures being the unionist parties and unionist media who are gorging themselves. Something has to give and the way things are going a pro-unionist coalition could soon be in power at Holyrood and pro-independence MP's lessening at Westminster.

Why or how the SNP cannot see this I don't know but probably in denial. The SNP and all pro-independence parties and voters need a united front against unionism. At present it is a rabble and in disarray. 

[scotlad]

On 8/25/2023 at 10:47 PM, Dave78 said:

At this stage in the game, any calls for Indyref2 are dead in the water. It's really going to be a 'generation' before the next one.

I'm leaning towards thinking the SNP probably need to spend some time in opposition.

I'm not sure the powers-that-be would be so complacent in the future as to allow the SNP (or any other pro-independence party) to reach the heights that the SNP have achieved, especially if, as the demographics suggest, support for independence keeps on increasing.

When the nuts and bolts were put on devolution back in the '90s it was done with a view to keeping the SNP out of power (or out of a majority anyway). The 2007 election result took them by surprise, never mind the 2011 result, and after the winning the 2014 referendum (which they only agreed to in the first place because they thought they'd skoosh it) they didn't see the 2015 WM result coming at all.

It's all been a bit too close for comfort for them. Maybe I'm just being paranoid but if they can argue that "nationalism" appears to have been put back in its box, then I wouldn't put it by them to make achieving another referendum not only more difficult in practical terms but also legal terms.

16 hours ago, Hertsscot said:

You're absolutely right. The media bias though is not obvious to many Scots. To anyone who's lived outside of Scotland it is as clear as day. I've commented several times on how issues, particularly in health, are politicised in a way that NEVER happens in England.

Another example is reporting which seems to indicate that the problem only affects Scots and thus undermines the case for independence. There was an example of this I noticed earlier this week or the end of last week. I can't remember the exact case but it's headlines along the lines of 'Scots face mortgage misery' or 'Scots councils cut key services'. In both examples the use of 'Scots' suggests that it is only a problem for Scots and the implication is that it is only  because of mismanagement by the Scottish Government. You simply NEVER get headlines that in England. Such headlines would just be 'Millions face mortgage misery' or 'Councils cut key services'.

You're spot on. Recently we've seen the outcome of the truly horrific Lucy Letby case but while there has, rightly, been ire turned on the management of the hospital where Letby worked, there has been no linking of the case to the WM government. Now, God forbid, but could you imagine something similar happening here?? Not only would people be calling for the health secretary to be sacked they'd be demanding devolution be scrapped because we're obviously not capable of running our own affairs. 

[TDYER63]

17 hours ago, Hertsscot said:

You're absolutely right. The media bias though is not obvious to many Scots. To anyone who's lived outside of Scotland it is as clear as day. I've commented several times on how issues, particularly in health, are politicised in a way that NEVER happens in England.

Another example is reporting which seems to indicate that the problem only affects Scots and thus undermines the case for independence. There was an example of this I noticed earlier this week or the end of last week. I can't remember the exact case but it's headlines along the lines of 'Scots face mortgage misery' or 'Scots councils cut key services'. In both examples the use of 'Scots' suggests that it is only a problem for Scots and the implication is that it is only  because of mismanagement by the Scottish Government. You simply NEVER get headlines that in England. Such headlines would just be 'Millions face mortgage misery' or 'Councils cut key services'.

IMO the media are are a bigger obstacle to overcome than unionist parties. People generally dont rate politicians and know they are spouting their own agenda, whereas they tend to think news is the gospel. Especially on TV and papers like the Mail. Its so frustrating. 
 

38 minutes ago, scotlad said:

 

You're spot on. Recently we've seen the outcome of the truly horrific Lucy Letby case but while there has, rightly, been ire turned on the management of the hospital where Letby worked, there has been no linking of the case to the WM government. Now, God forbid, but could you imagine something similar happening here?? Not only would people be calling for the health secretary to be sacked they'd be demanding devolution be scrapped because we're obviously not capable of running our own affairs. 

A couple of days after the Lucy Letby outcome I caught part of The Nine News which was reporting that a number of senior doctors spoke anonymously to the BBC News about conditions in Grampian NHS as they feared for patients health. Whilst whistleblowing absolutely has  to be encouraged I was thinking it was all rather convenient timing after the Letby case. 

Next thing we have this in the papers. Apologies for the link to the express but its a perfect example.

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/terrifying-nhs-grampian-chaos-blamed-30768930.amp

[TDYER63]

Got an email from my MP looking for help delivering leaflets about the constituency . One of the dates listed is 2 Sep.
Really ???? And they wonder why people are getting pissed off about their disinterest. They could leaflet drop any day of the year and they choose the date of an independence march. Unbelievable. It doesn’t even mention the march. 

[stocky]

17 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

Got an email from my MP looking for help delivering leaflets about the constituency . One of the dates listed is 2 Sep.
Really ???? And they wonder why people are getting pissed off about their disinterest. They could leaflet drop any day of the year and they choose the date of an independence march. Unbelievable. It doesn’t even mention the march. 

We are doing an independence leaflet drop in our village next Saturday, ( a village awfy close to yours) 

Not everyone can make the march.

The press won't do much covering the march,so and it's our way of helping out on the Day of action.

 

The MP (Mr N?) Should perhaps have mentioned in the E mail, if you are not going to the march, can you help out etc etc  

 

[TDYER63]

44 minutes ago, stocky said:

We are doing an independence leaflet drop in our village next Saturday, ( a village awfy close to yours) 

Not everyone can make the march.

The press won't do much covering the march,so and it's our way of helping out on the Day of action.

 

The MP (Mr N?) Should perhaps have mentioned in the E mail, if you are not going to the march, can you help out etc etc  

 

Yes, he should have mentioned it. The word ‘independence’ somewhere in the email would have been a welcome addition too. 
I realise not everyone can make the march and the media might not cover it much but you can argue nobody will read a leaflet stuck through a door either. And his isnt even about independence. 
The fact is any attempt to raise awareness has to be applauded, but for me the email should have read ‘ march in on Edinburgh 2 sep , first minister is attending.
Then ……If you cant make it , blah blah. Maybe that is me just expecting too much from a party that was elected to win independence. 
In saying this I do think he is a very good hardworking MP. But this sort of thing doesn’t help concerns that the SNP’’s eye is off the ball on independence. 

[stocky]

12 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

Yes, he should have mentioned it. The word ‘independence’ somewhere in the email would have been a welcome addition too. 
I realise not everyone can make the march and the media might not cover it much but you can argue nobody will read a leaflet stuck through a door either. And his isnt even about independence. 
The fact is any attempt to raise awareness has to be applauded, but for me the email should have read ‘ march in on Edinburgh 2 sep , first minister is attending.
Then ……If you cant make it , blah blah. Maybe that is me just expecting too much from a party that was elected to win independence. 
In saying this I do think he is a very good hardworking MP. But this sort of thing doesn’t help concerns that the SNP’’s eye is off the ball on independence. 

I agree, NO SNP leaflet or email should go out without mentioning independence .

 

[Toepoke]

3 hours ago, TDYER63 said:

A couple of days after the Lucy Letby outcome I caught part of The Nine News which was reporting that a number of senior doctors spoke anonymously to the BBC News about conditions in Grampian NHS as they feared for patients health. Whilst whistleblowing absolutely has  to be encouraged I was thinking it was all rather convenient timing after the Letby case. 

Next thing we have this in the papers. Apologies for the link to the express but its a perfect example.

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/terrifying-nhs-grampian-chaos-blamed-30768930.amp

And this ...

 

 

 

[Toepoke]

I see Labour are scrapping their wealth tax commitment now. They're going to be going into the next election with an identical manifesto to the Tories at this rate!

 

[scotlad]

3 hours ago, TDYER63 said:

IMO the media are are a bigger obstacle to overcome than unionist parties. People generally dont rate politicians and know they are spouting their own agenda, whereas they tend to think news is the gospel. Especially on TV and papers like the Mail. Its so frustrating. 
 

A couple of days after the Lucy Letby outcome I caught part of The Nine News which was reporting that a number of senior doctors spoke anonymously to the BBC News about conditions in Grampian NHS as they feared for patients health. Whilst whistleblowing absolutely has  to be encouraged I was thinking it was all rather convenient timing after the Letby case. 

Next thing we have this in the papers. Apologies for the link to the express but its a perfect example.

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/terrifying-nhs-grampian-chaos-blamed-30768930.amp

Oh aye, that's another favourite of theirs: if something bad has happened or is happening in England they'll try and find an equivalent in Scotland. Can't have the jocks thinking they're not actually completely terrible at everything.

[Caledonian Craig]

4 hours ago, TDYER63 said:

IMO the media are are a bigger obstacle to overcome than unionist parties. People generally dont rate politicians and know they are spouting their own agenda, whereas they tend to think news is the gospel. Especially on TV and papers like the Mail. Its so frustrating. 
 

Definitely, and they will never change. ANYTHING absokutely anything with a negative spin for Scotland will be leapt on by unionist media. They have had a field day with the SNP of late but its a bit rich when their Westminster governments are nothing but sleaze, incompetence and corruption. It is the same when they speak continuously of ferry shambles but look at the billions spent or should I say wasted by Westminster on HS2 which is being scaled back with every month that passes.

Edited August 27, 2023 by Caledonian Craig

[Ally Bongo]

 

[PapofGlencoe]

15 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Definitely, and they will never change. ANYTHING absokutely anything with a negative spin for Scotland will be leapt on by unionist media. They have had a field day with the SNP of late but its a bit rich when their Westminster governments are nothing but sleaze, incompetence and corruption. It is the same when they speak continuously of ferry shambles but look at the billions spent or should I say wasted by Westminster on HS2 which is being scaled back with every month that passes.

but the ferries are a shambles are they not?  Doesnt look like spin to me.  They should be held to account.  

I did see a legitimate over reaching the other day though.  BBC and REcord headlined this.. Glasgow city council have spent £100k on LEZ .  worst spin i've seen in a while.

They've raked in five times that figure so are in profit! And 100k, actually 75k, to rent out some vehicles until replaced shortly is a spit in a puddle for a billion pound council.  My brother in law spent a third on that on one vehicle! (whisper it,, THAT'S a total waste of money..)

 https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/motors/11118779/snp-council-bosses-hypocrisy-lez-taxpayer-cars/

 

[StirlingEgg]

17 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Definitely, and they will never change. ANYTHING absokutely anything with a negative spin for Scotland will be leapt on by unionist media. They have had a field day with the SNP of late but its a bit rich when their Westminster governments are nothing but sleaze, incompetence and corruption. It is the same when they speak continuously of ferry shambles but look at the billions spent or should I say wasted by Westminster on HS2 which is being scaled back with every month that passes.

Any time there's an accusation of 'whataboutery' then I always think "yes it is!" and so what? because often the other issue overseen by the UK has arguably more far reaching and damaging consequences. There have been a number of hospital related scandals where I've thought they would have called for the FM's head on a spike if it had happened up here. 

I genuinely fear that having virtually no impartial media, let alone representing the independence side is the main barrier to convincing or changing minds. This is regardless of what the SNP do well or badly. 

We're somehow at a point where we have to prove that we're somehow capable or deserving of independence, based on how well the country is run under specific conditions. It's ridiculous when you think it through. Folk don't want to think things through though because they've got enough stress at home! 

Maybe I'm naive or got my head in the sand too but I'll continue to vote SNP as a big drop in support could be twisted into the independence debate or even devolution being shut down altogether. 

 

[Ally Bongo]

MacAskill is a massive loss to the SNP but a major asset for the Independence movement

 

[Alibi]

On 8/26/2023 at 8:54 AM, Hertsscot said:

And another reminder why England needs us

https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest/all-planning-consents-now-granted-for-2-1bn-electricity-superhighway-between-england-and-scotland-25-08-2023/

 

As a chartered member of the I.C.E. I can comment on that article.  needless to say I have done so, pointing out that this is a blatant theft of our resources.  Will be interesting to see if they allow the comment to remain.  If they don't, I'll be asking why.

[Caledonian Craig]

47 minutes ago, Alibi said:

As a chartered member of the I.C.E. I can comment on that article.  needless to say I have done so, pointing out that this is a blatant theft of our resources.  Will be interesting to see if they allow the comment to remain.  If they don't, I'll be asking why.

I have no doubt you will get called a nationalist and reminded we are all one big happy family in the UK and the electricity and also oil does not belong to a country that does not exist. If only more Scots could grown a backbone, a brain and some balls to stand up for themselves.

Edited August 29, 2023 by Caledonian Craig

[phart]

On 8/28/2023 at 1:49 PM, Ally Bongo said:

MacAskill is a massive loss to the SNP but a major asset for the Independence movement

 

He was in government for like 7 years. I'm sure he is correct, but what was done about it when he actually had power rather than soundbites when he is trying to get it back.

[PapofGlencoe]

5 hours ago, phart said:

He was in government for like 7 years. I'm sure he is correct, but what was done about it when he actually had power rather than soundbites when he is trying to get it back.

it's an argument in favour of gaining the powers you speak of; which he campaigned to win in a referendum in 2014. unless there's some energy levy we can pursue then, not sure what you mean.