Indyref 2 (2)

[hampden_loon2878]

1 hour ago, TDYER63 said:

Totally agree.

A long time member of our branch is adamant there was a plant in the party about 20 years ago. I wasnt interested at all in politics then but coincidentally I actually knew the person she refers to as he lived in the same small village as me. Not where I currently live. He was outspoken and a bit of a troublemaker even in the village. From what I have been told I have no doubt he was a plant. The SNP member is very credible and  has devoted her life to independence. 

Oh , there is a rather inconvenient factor for the writer 🙄

Whilst I agree about the infiltration , I think the final paragraph of his piece kinda sums up the real reason for it …

“Finally, I mentioned my books. My life-story is covered in my first book – Was It Something I Said? – including my time in politics and what actually happened during my time in the SNP Whips Office, and as a Member of the Scottish Parliament. My two other books, Outspoken – Part One and Outspoken – Part Two, take us through the eventful last ten-years of Scottish and UK politics, from the Independence Referendum to the present day and the British State capture of the SNP.”

I spoke to Salmond just prior the last holyrood election and I asked him about john swinney, he was complimentary of john, said he will do anything you ask him and put in maximum effort, that’s where I think he has possibly been taken advantage of 

one discussion that sticks out in my mind is the one I had with Angus Robertson up in aberlour, my question was “what you thinking about the party just now his reply was “ we as a party have some huge decisions to make that may cause some problems” so in hindsight the decisions that party had to make was all the bat shit policies they have chased after, he knew it was going to cause chaos and yet fully supported them.

[Hertsscot]

1 hour ago, TDYER63 said:

Whilst I agree about the infiltration , I think the final paragraph of his piece kinda sums up the real reason for it …

“Finally, I mentioned my books. My life-story is covered in my first book – Was It Something I Said? – including my time in politics and what actually happened during my time in the SNP Whips Office, and as a Member of the Scottish Parliament. My two other books, Outspoken – Part One and Outspoken – Part Two, take us through the eventful last ten-years of Scottish and UK politics, from the Independence Referendum to the present day and the British State capture of the SNP.”

Yes, I'm sure you're not alone in having noticed that. I don't think it helps his credibility.

[TDYER63]

4 hours ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

I spoke to Salmond just prior the last holyrood election and I asked him about john swinney, he was complimentary of john, said he will do anything you ask him and put in maximum effort, that’s where I think he has possibly been taken advantage of 

one discussion that sticks out in my mind is the one I had with Angus Robertson up in aberlour, my question was “what you thinking about the party just now his reply was “ we as a party have some huge decisions to make that may cause some problems” so in hindsight the decisions that party had to make was all the bat shit policies they have chased after, he knew it was going to cause chaos and yet fully supported them.

I cant claim to know anyone in the high echelons of the SNP never mind know them well, so I can only go by what I see and hear from the individuals. And to an extent , how people I admire rate them. 

I would be astounded if John Swinney was in anyway compromising independence, particularly  deliberately . If any criticism is to be made is that he is too nice. In that respect I suppose it is possible he could be talked into something by someone he thinks has independence at heart, but I am not convinced.

Angus Robertson on the other hand I dont think I would trust in any shape or form. He did not impress me at all at the hustings for the deputy leadership a few years ago. He was full of soundbites and strutted about like he was a shoo in for the position. He is most definitely someone I would describe as a career politician. 

These are just my own thoughts on the individuals.  I could be way off the mark of course. 

[scotlad]

19 hours ago, duncan II said:

Fair enough! Just a silly joke. And I genuinely thought you were (or had been) a civil servant.

Why couldn't a civil servant build a shed??  Someone could take a fence to that.

Edited August 12, 2023 by scotlad

[scotlad]

On 8/10/2023 at 8:15 AM, Hertsscot said:

It's certainly not impossible that SNP have been compromised but the same has also be said about some of the extreme anti-SNP voices who seem to spend more of their time slagging off the SNP than telling us why we should be leaving the Union.

I guess that just leaves the rest of us Indy supporters of whatever party trying to do our best, trying to tone down the vitriol against other indy supporters, not always thinking the worst of one another, ignoring those who are constantly trying to stir up muck and remembering that 'divide and conquer' is the Empire's way. When we're at one another's throats, there's only one cause that wins-and it's not independence.

I think it's a racing certainty that the SNP have been compromised.  If the British security services can infiltrate Islamic terrorist groups and the IRA, how hard can it be to join a mainstream political party where you can visit their cheery website and register as a member within minutes? 

I'm also sceptical of the motivations of certain individuals who claim - or claimed - to support independence - but do nothing but attack the SNP and the SG.

Clearly, indy supporters fighting amongst each other is what opponents of independence want.  One of the great strengths of the movement back in 2014 was its sense of purpose and unity, so much so that its opponents used to sneer about it being "cult-like".

Fighting each other obviously doesn't help but neither does simply staying schtum for the sake of appearances while it's obvious that something is going wrong, which is what some people would like to happen.  I think criticism and debate can be healthy, providing it's constructive.

On 8/9/2023 at 11:46 PM, Ally Bongo said:

At a fringe event Mhairi Black called those that are gender critical "50 year old Karens"

She also compared those that are gender critical to white supremacists

When Humza Yousaf was asked about the first smear he said he did not know what it meant & apologised for "being out of the loop" on such things

This is the current SNP - a party that wanked themselves silly to throw a hard working Independence MP under the bus and hand her seat to Unionists -  yet more or less deems these comments acceptable

The SNP are not just a barrier to Independence but a complete liability

Thank goodness Mhairi Black is standing down as an MP next year.  She at least appears to possess a modicum of self-awareness, because statements like that show she lacks the humility, tact and maturity to be in a prominent political post.

[Hertsscot]

27 minutes ago, scotlad said:

Clearly, indy supporters fighting amongst each other is what opponents of independence want.  One of the great strengths of the movement back in 2014 was its sense of purpose and unity, so much so that its opponents used to sneer about it being "cult-like".

I travelled to the Dundee convention wondering why I bothered but was glad I went. I think that for most rank and file SNP members there is a desire to work together with other indy parties. I was also pleased to hear a similar message from the AUOB march in Glasgow a few weeks beforehand. I do hope that supporters of indy will turn out in numbers for some of the big events in the autumn, the early September rally in Edinburgh and the Chain of Freedom event in October.

[Ally Bongo]

If Humza thinks ending the deal with the Greens will solve the SNP's problems he is in for a shock

Eventually there will be nobody left to blame

[scotlad]

2 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

If Humza thinks ending the deal with the Greens will solve the SNP's problems he is in for a shock

Eventually there will be nobody left to blame

That's a bit sleekit of him.  I remember him during the leadership campaign making a bit of thing about how great the Bute House agreement was and how it must be maintained, whereas the other candidates were clearly less keen on it (Regan wanted it scrapped altogether, IIRC).

[Ally Bongo]

Looks as though it is only lip service and there is no way Yousaf wants to end the Green deal regardless of the members not wanting it

This is very good and discusses amongst other things Alba attacking the SNP and how we will never win if we are not united

 

[aaid]

36 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

Looks as though it is only lip service and there is no way Yousaf wants to end the Green deal regardless of the members not wanting it

This is very good and discusses amongst other things Alba attacking the SNP and how we will never win if we are not united

 

Says a bunch of people who do nothing but attack the SNP 

[Ally Bongo]

48 minutes ago, aaid said:

Says a bunch of people who do nothing but attack the SNP 

They explain why

[aaid]

8 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

They explain why

Some highlights from Twitter *since* they put out that podcast,

retweeted by @scotpol1314

Retweeted by Lloyd Quinan -he seems particularly nasty  

Retweeted by Eva Comrie 

The other two only get a pass as they haven’t put anything on Twitter in the last couple of weeks. 

[Ally Bongo]

Wait - you dont think the criticism of what Mhairi Black said is justified ? 

Wow

[aaid]

23 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

Wait - you dont think the criticism of what Mhairi Black said is justified ? 

Wow

I think that middle aged straight men telling a young lesbian women what she can and cannot say isn’t a great look.

[PapofGlencoe]

problem with attacking the greens is they a substantial and important section of the pro-indpendence vote; and 5 times the Alba constituency.  

maybe a few of them are intolerant weirdos but focussing on this and attacking incessantly rather than the more substantial unionist arguments won't achieve independence.  all sides should come together and bury the hatchet, it's the only way.  egos on all sides are too big though and don't they all love their self perpetuating, hollow, mini victories on twitter.  

[scotlad]

2 hours ago, aaid said:

Some highlights from Twitter *since* they put out that podcast,

retweeted by @scotpol1314

Retweeted by Lloyd Quinan -he seems particularly nasty  

Retweeted by Eva Comrie 

The other two only get a pass as they haven’t put anything on Twitter in the last couple of weeks. 

That Lukewarm Dave account is atrocious but otherwise I don't see much wrong with what they've retweeted here.

Clearly, none of them are happy with the way the SNP is currently being run but apart from the self-satisfied Yvonne Ridley the show is usually fairly watchable and entertaining, IMO, providing you take it with the requisite amount of salt.

10 minutes ago, aaid said:

I think that middle aged straight men telling a young lesbian women what she can and cannot say isn’t a great look.

Sorry, but how is Mhairi Black's age or sexual orientation relevant here? She's a bright person, deemed capable enough to be put into a very prominent position ahead of others in her party (including some "middle aged straight men").

As far as I'm aware the criticism that has been flung her way has been as a result of what she said, rather than what she is, and tbf, if she's going to make such controversial and high-and-mighty statements publicly she should, given the position she's in, be able to defend them. She shouldn't need a free pass, like some mollycoddled wean having a tantrum because she's tired.

[Alibi]

26 minutes ago, aaid said:

I think that middle aged straight men telling a young lesbian women what she can and cannot say isn’t a great look.

Re-arrange that as "I think that a young lesbian woman telling middle aged straight men what they can and cannot say isn’t a great look".  That way round it perhaps highlights an implied ageism and heterophobia that underpins your post, and to be clear I don't actually ascribe such views to you.  People can't help becoming middle aged and what's wrong with being heterosexual?

Mhairi Black is entitled to her opinions but it doesn't mean she's necessarily correct just because she's a lesbian.

[aaid]

47 minutes ago, Alibi said:

Re-arrange that as "I think that a young lesbian woman telling middle aged straight men what they can and cannot say isn’t a great look".  That way round it perhaps highlights an implied ageism and heterophobia that underpins your post, and to be clear I don't actually ascribe such views to you.  People can't help becoming middle aged and what's wrong with being heterosexual?

Mhairi Black is entitled to her opinions but it doesn't mean she's necessarily correct just because she's a lesbian.

Well if it were about her trying to preach to men about “men’s rights” then maybe you’d have a point, but it isn’t so you don’t. 

[Ally Bongo]

15 minutes ago, aaid said:

Well if it were about her trying to preach to men about “men’s rights” then maybe you’d have a point, but it isn’t so you don’t. 

But it is fucking men's rights - in the main

There are a tiny amount of young people that have gender dysphoria and need help - everyone accepts that

Apart from them trans women are just another male fetish - that's it in a nutshell

[aaid]

15 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

But it is fucking men's rights - in the main

There are a tiny amount of young people that have gender dysphoria and need help - everyone accepts that

Apart from them trans women are just another male fetish - that's it in a nutshell

Sorry?

[Alibi]

1 hour ago, aaid said:

Well if it were about her trying to preach to men about “men’s rights” then maybe you’d have a point, but it isn’t so you don’t. 

As is often the case, you have attempted to deflect and completely missed the point I was making.  Your response there is frankly a bit of a word salad.

[aaid]

21 minutes ago, Alibi said:

As is often the case, you have attempted to deflect and completely missed the point I was making.  Your response there is frankly a bit of a word salad.

The only person  deflecting here is Ally Bongo who thinks that there's no contradiction between don't criticise the SNP and comments about Mhairi Black being a wee bitch.  

Your "spin it on its head" argument doesn't work because you miss the point and make it about something completely different.  

Then you've got Ally Bongo claiming its all about men's rights for completely unfathomable reasons of his own.

The comments about Mhairi Black are the definition of mansplaining  

[aaid]

2 hours ago, scotlad said:

As far as I'm aware the criticism that has been flung her way has been as a result of what she said, rather than what she is, and tbf, if she's going to make such controversial and high-and-mighty statements publicly she should, given the position she's in, be able to defend them. She shouldn't need a free pass, like some mollycoddled wean having a tantrum because she's tired.

That is the point though.  If someone's saying don't criticise the SNP, then don't criticise the SNP.  Maybe they should be saying "don't criticise the snp apart from when its something I don't like".

I'm not saying the SNP shouldn't be criticised BTW, just don't be a hypocrite about it.

[duncan II]

3 hours ago, aaid said:

I think that middle aged straight men telling a young lesbian women what she can and cannot say isn’t a great look.

Black is (a) young and (b) a lesbian; thus she is above reproach. Nope.

Black is (a) an elected MP and (b) talking inflammatory, accusatory, ageist nonsense; thus criticism is warranted. Yep.

[Ally Bongo]

17 minutes ago, aaid said:

The only person  deflecting here is Ally Bongo who thinks that there's no contradiction between don't criticise the SNP and comments about Mhairi Black being a wee bitch.  

Your "spin it on its head" argument doesn't work because you miss the point and make it about something completely different.  

Then you've got Ally Bongo claiming its all about men's rights for completely unfathomable reasons of his own.

The comments about Mhairi Black are the definition of mansplaining  

I already said that if you watched the video they explained why(mainly Phil Boswell and Eva Comrie) criticised the SNP and it was exactly because of what Mhairi Black said - which any normal person can see is fucking awful and will have repercussions for the SNP through the electorate

In fighting between pro Indy supporters needs to be reeled in however a confident political party should welcome criticism and address it-  but that is not what the SNP has become and why there is so much vitriol