Scottish players in action 21/22

[Scot1]

12 minutes ago, Diamond Scot said:

Lets not rewrite history, he properly broke into the Rangers team when Taviner got injured towards the end of the 20/21 season. Thats the season Rangers won the league and stopped 10 in a row. As soon as Tavinier was fit Patterson dropped back to bench, only really making cameo appearences at the start of the next season when Rangers were reigning champions. As Aaid says I also dont think this is a massive slight against him but it is the facts. 

He then moved to Everton in Jan 22 when Benetiz quickly got sacked. He didnt get a look in until April when he started due to Coleman being N/A and Patterson himself then got injured. Since then he has been in and out of the Everton team, never holding down the position when another recognised RB was available. In fact Dyche played a CB out right instead of him on a good few occasions.

Ive not said he is a bad defender. Ive said he isnt good defensively. All the stats show this and you would be hard pushed to find anybody who watches him that thinks that defending is one of his strengths.

He will / should improve and I really hope he does however if we are talking about our best players for each position, Patterson doesnt win that at RB and isnt currently good enough to change things about for imo. (Unlike Tierney who was too good to leave out so things got shifted). If Patterson was at Tierney levels then by all means try moving Hickey elsewhere.

It seems I’ve got my dates mixed up. 
But if not being able to displace Tavenier isn’t a slight against him, why did you bring it up? 
We also don’t play with full backs, obviously, so saying that Hickey is a better full back than Patterson doesn’t exactly sit right. We play with wing-backs and consequently, I think there’s more of an onus on them to produce something offensively, we need an end product from them. Something that Hickey has never done in a Scotland shirt, whilst Patterson has. As I said it’s a trade off, I’d play Patterson ahead of Hickey because he has proven that he can provide goals and assists from the wing-back position. Whilst still having the security of Porteous behind him if he is out of position etc. And I also think Hickey would make a better defensive midfielder than full-back or wing-back. And it’s my opinion that our team would benefit from having a good defensive midfielder playing, both offensively and defensively. 
I believe that if we go to Germany with the right set up and the right mentality, ie put out a well balanced team, that wants to go and play on the front foot, to go and dominate and play attacking football  we have more chance of being successful in our group. If we go there with an unbalanced team with the mentality of counter attack, sit in, hit them on the break, I think we will come up short, again. Teams like Hungary and Switzerland will look our players and they’ll know we have quality in most positions. They will be wary of us if we approach the games in the right manner, with the right team, with the right mentality. And that is playing expansive, attacking football. We have the players to give Germany a good game and to potentially beat Hungary and Switzerland. I don’t think we will do it with an imbalanced central midfield partnership and a right side that offers next to nothing offensively. It’s just my opinion, maybe I’m wrong, maybe I’ll be proven wrong when we manage to get out of the group stages for the first time. 

[Diamond Scot]

28 minutes ago, Scot1 said:

It seems I’ve got my dates mixed up. 
But if not being able to displace Tavenier isn’t a slight against him, why did you bring it up? 
We also don’t play with full backs, obviously, so saying that Hickey is a better full back than Patterson doesn’t exactly sit right. We play with wing-backs and consequently, I think there’s more of an onus on them to produce something offensively, we need an end product from them. Something that Hickey has never done in a Scotland shirt, whilst Patterson has. As I said it’s a trade off, I’d play Patterson ahead of Hickey because he has proven that he can provide goals and assists from the wing-back position. Whilst still having the security of Porteous behind him if he is out of position etc. And I also think Hickey would make a better defensive midfielder than full-back or wing-back. And it’s my opinion that our team would benefit from having a good defensive midfielder playing, both offensively and defensively. 
I believe that if we go to Germany with the right set up and the right mentality, ie put out a well balanced team, that wants to go and play on the front foot, to go and dominate and play attacking football  we have more chance of being successful in our group. If we go there with an unbalanced team with the mentality of counter attack, sit in, hit them on the break, I think we will come up short, again. Teams like Hungary and Switzerland will look our players and they’ll know we have quality in most positions. They will be wary of us if we approach the games in the right manner, with the right team, with the right mentality. And that is playing expansive, attacking football. We have the players to give Germany a good game and to potentially beat Hungary and Switzerland. I don’t think we will do it with an imbalanced central midfield partnership and a right side that offers next to nothing offensively. It’s just my opinion, maybe I’m wrong, maybe I’ll be proven wrong when we manage to get out of the group stages for the first time. 

It wasnt a slight, it was a fact as part of the summary of his career to date where it is also a fact that he has not as yet ever held down a starting position when another RB is fit.

Hickey is a better full back and a better wing back. Hickey isnt great going forward but for Scotland he provides the platform for McGinn to do what he does. A right hand side of Hickey / Gilmour on RCM and then Hickey have shown that they can create chances whilst being really solid defensively. 

I doubt Gilmour starts against Germany but he is more than good enough to start against Swiss and Hungary. Afterall Gilmour is now starting every week in centre mid for a team much better than Everton and in Europe so he must be doing something right.

[Scot1]

6 minutes ago, Diamond Scot said:

It wasnt a slight, it was a fact as part of the summary of his career to date where it is also a fact that he has not as yet ever held down a starting position when another RB is fit.

Hickey is a better full back and a better wing back. Hickey isnt great going forward but for Scotland he provides the platform for McGinn to do what he does. A right hand side of Hickey / Gilmour on RCM and then Hickey have shown that they can create chances whilst being really solid defensively. 

I doubt Gilmour starts against Germany but he is more than good enough to start against Swiss and Hungary. Afterall Gilmour is now starting every week in centre mid for a team much better than Everton and in Europe so he must be doing something right.

The stats suggest otherwise, 0 goals, 0 assists. Without Evertons 10 point deduction, Brighton would be 3 points ahead of Everton. Gilmour doesn’t start every game, he seems to get rotated with Dahoud.
 A central midfield of McGregor and Gilmour I don’t think will work against Switzerland or Hungary. That’s my opinion, time will tell.  

[DC92]

11 minutes ago, Scot1 said:

The stats suggest otherwise, 0 goals, 0 assists. Without Evertons 10 point deduction, Brighton would be 3 points ahead of Everton. Gilmour doesn’t start every game, he seems to get rotated with Dahoud.
 A central midfield of McGregor and Gilmour I don’t think will work against Switzerland or Hungary. That’s my opinion, time will tell.  

Gilmour started 7 games in a row for Brighton until yesterday when he replaced Dahoud at half-time. Seems to be a firm first pick at the moment.

Patterson has 0 goals and 2 assists in 39 games for Everton while Hickey has 0 goals and 1 assist in 37 games for Brentford. Not much difference, and Patterson has never demonstrated regular goalscoring like Hickey did in 21/22 when he chipped in with 5 goals in Serie A.

I do think Patterson is more direct and aggressive going forward than Hickey, but it doesn't necessarily translate to a better end product, and he's not as good a defender. There might be some situations where he's a better tactical fit, but I'd be starting Hickey ahead of him at the Euros.

[mccaughey85]

10 hours ago, Scot1 said:

They are both left footed, playmakers, you could try to get Christie to play another role alongside McGregor but he plays a very similar role for Bournemouth at the moment. Interestingly enough Christie plays in a 2 alongside Lewis Cook, a defensive midfielder. 
I’ll make the point I wrote a few posts back, can you remember many teams that play without a defensive midfielder in the team? Someone to put in tackles, stop opposition attacks, etc. Regardless of formations and the number of midfielders, there is either a specific “defensive midfielder” a specialist in the role or you will have a multifaceted player like a Declan Rice, a Rodri who performs the role amongst others or you’ll sometimes have 2 well rounded midfield who’ll play in a double pivot, 1 sits, 1 presses, which is how Everton play at the moment. We have none of this, and I don’t think a midfield of McGregor and Gilmour is so special that it negates the need. Especially against better teams, we might get away with it against Cyprus or Georgia, but I think better teams, like the teams we will face in the Euros will exploit this. Just like Ukraine and Ireland did.  McTominay isn’t at his best, most effective deep. He’s a box to box midfielder not a holding, sitting, defensive midfielder.
Someone said Tierney plays in there, no he doesn’t, Tierney is very rarely near central midfield. Id imagine if you were to look at Tierneys heat map when he plays for Scotland it would be very similar to Robertson’s, it would almost exclusively be up and down the left side of the pitch. 

Why would them both being left footers be an issue. Dont think using the same foot has ever been an issue with central midfielders. 

I can see your point about wanting a defensive minded midfielder in the side but I think Christie is multifaceted and could do the defensive aspects in midfield. Hes always been a good tackler and good at winning the ball back. He's got heaps of stamina as well. 

I think he could perhaps add a bit of bite in midfield alongside either gilmour or McGregor.

[mccaughey85]

4 hours ago, Diamond Scot said:

Lets not rewrite history, he properly broke into the Rangers team when Taviner got injured towards the end of the 20/21 season. Thats the season Rangers won the league and stopped 10 in a row. As soon as Tavinier was fit Patterson dropped back to bench, only really making cameo appearences at the start of the next season when Rangers were reigning champions. As Aaid says I also dont think this is a massive slight against him but it is the facts. 

He then moved to Everton in Jan 22 when Benetiz quickly got sacked. He didnt get a look in until April when he started due to Coleman being N/A and Patterson himself then got injured. Since then he has been in and out of the Everton team, never holding down the position when another recognised RB was available. In fact Dyche played a CB out right instead of him on a good few occasions.

Ive not said he is a bad defender. Ive said he isnt good defensively. All the stats show this and you would be hard pushed to find anybody who watches him that thinks that defending is one of his strengths.

He will / should improve and I really hope he does however if we are talking about our best players for each position, Patterson doesnt win that at RB and isnt currently good enough to change things about for imo. (Unlike Tierney who was too good to leave out so things got shifted). If Patterson was at Tierney levels then by all means try moving Hickey elsewhere.

With good coaching and more first team experience his defending will get better imo.

[BryanBlessed]

Another poor night for McTominay and the rest of Man Utd. I think he's a very good player but I don't think he's at that elite level that Man Utd need to challenge for the title.  A top half EPL side for sure but not title contenders.

[todd]

4 minutes ago, BryanBlessed said:

Another poor night for McTominay and the rest of Man Utd. I think he's a very good player but I don't think he's at that elite level that Man Utd need to challenge for the title.  A top half EPL side for sure but not title contenders.

Surely the same should be said for the whole Man Utd team then, why just single out Mctominay?

[mccaughey85]

12 minutes ago, BryanBlessed said:

Another poor night for McTominay and the rest of Man Utd. I think he's a very good player but I don't think he's at that elite level that Man Utd need to challenge for the title.  A top half EPL side for sure but not title contenders.

As brilliant as hes been for us in the euros campaign I have to agree that hes probably not good enough for a top 6 epl side. Hes scored a few recently for united but overall his career there has been full of average/poor performances. 

United are a mess in general right now. 

[mccaughey85]

14 minutes ago, todd said:

Surely the same should be said for the whole Man Utd team then, why just single out Mctominay?

Well mctominay is our player. Hes hardly gunna start a discussion on Luke Shaw or rashford as that would be irrelevant to Scotland fans. 

[Caledonian Craig]

15 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

As brilliant as hes been for us in the euros campaign I have to agree that hes probably not good enough for a top 6 epl side. Hes scored a few recently for united but overall his career there has been full of average/poor performances. 

United are a mess in general right now. 

All Scotland fans should be bothered about is the bit in bold. Club form is an irrelevance if a player does the business for Scotland. For his own career sake he needs either a move or a manager that can utilize him to the best of his ability.

[ProudScot]

39 minutes ago, BryanBlessed said:

Another poor night for McTominay and the rest of Man Utd. I think he's a very good player but I don't think he's at that elite level that Man Utd need to challenge for the title.  A top half EPL side for sure but not title contenders.

Man U are miles off the title.

Where they are at currently McTominay is close to their best player. He’s easily good enough for Aston Villa, Newcastle, Spurs and other clubs in and around the top 6.

 

[ceudmilefailte]

15 minutes ago, ProudScot said:

Man U are miles off the title.

Where they are at currently McTominay is close to their best player. He’s easily good enough for Aston Villa, Newcastle, Spurs and other clubs in and around the top 6.

 

Not sure were you sit in Old Trafford, but your pretty much on your own there. 

[Scot1]

On 12/10/2023 at 10:52 PM, mccaughey85 said:

Why would them both being left footers be an issue. Dont think using the same foot has ever been an issue with central midfielders. 

I can see your point about wanting a defensive minded midfielder in the side but I think Christie is multifaceted and could do the defensive aspects in midfield. Hes always been a good tackler and good at winning the ball back. He's got heaps of stamina as well. 

I think he could perhaps add a bit of bite in midfield alongside either gilmour or McGregor.

It’s worth a try, I’d be happy to see the coming friendlies used to try to find a balanced midfield partnership. Hickey, Christie, Ferguson or Souttar beside McGregor and Gilmour and perhaps Christie also playing the playmaker role with Hickey or Souttar or Ferguson tried as the defensive midfielder. I’m all for trying different combinations as sometimes the solution isn’t always the most obvious candidate. I think on paper Hickey looks the best, most “natural” fit for the role, but it could well be that Christie or Souttar works better in reality.

[Scot1]

As far as Man Utd go, in my opinion their main problem is midfield. They don’t have a balanced midfield. They need to get away from the 4/2/3/1, it doesn’t work for them at the moment. I’d be tempted to go 4/3/3 and drop Bruno Fernandez who has offered next to nothing for months now. Or if insisting on Fernandez starting try a 4/3/1/2, with Fernandez playing behind a front 2. 

[Scot1]

On 12/10/2023 at 9:01 PM, DC92 said:

Gilmour started 7 games in a row for Brighton until yesterday when he replaced Dahoud at half-time. Seems to be a firm first pick at the moment.

Patterson has 0 goals and 2 assists in 39 games for Everton while Hickey has 0 goals and 1 assist in 37 games for Brentford. Not much difference, and Patterson has never demonstrated regular goalscoring like Hickey did in 21/22 when he chipped in with 5 goals in Serie A.

I do think Patterson is more direct and aggressive going forward than Hickey, but it doesn't necessarily translate to a better end product, and he's not as good a defender. There might be some situations where he's a better tactical fit, but I'd be starting Hickey ahead of him at the Euros.

Hickey has 0 goals, 0 assists for Scotland

Patterson has 1 goal and 2 assists, Patterson has played a few more games for Scotland than Hickey, not many more, but a few.  And if Brown would’ve got a touch onto that beauty of a pass from Patterson against Norway that would’ve been another assist. 
Id start Patterson and move Hickey to defensive midfield, see how he gets on there, that just my opinion. 

[mccaughey85]

1 hour ago, Caledonian Craig said:

All Scotland fans should be bothered about is the bit in bold. Club form is an irrelevance if a player does the business for Scotland. For his own career sake he needs either a move or a manager that can utilize him to the best of his ability.

Might as well close this thread then lol.

[Tartan blood]

38 minutes ago, Scot1 said:

It’s worth a try, I’d be happy to see the coming friendlies used to try to find a balanced midfield partnership. Hickey, Christie, Ferguson or Souttar beside McGregor and Gilmour and perhaps Christie also playing the playmaker role with Hickey or Souttar or Ferguson tried as the defensive midfielder. I’m all for trying different combinations as sometimes the solution isn’t always the most obvious candidate. I think on paper Hickey looks the best, most “natural” fit for the role, but it could well be that Christie or Souttar works better in reality.

I think Hickey and Souttar would be more than capable of slotting in during an injury crisis, but I really don't see it ever happening. McGregor and Gilmour are most likely first choice, then you have McKenna, Christie, McTominay, Armstrong and McGinn who can all play that role. Jack as well. Though his Scotland career is rapidly fizzling out.

Knowing all of the aforementioned players can play defensive mid means Souttar and Hickey are pretty unlikely to ever be considered there. I think Souttar will actually struggle to get in a 23 man squad in general.

Having players that can play more than 1 position is vital. But Hickey's backup up position is left back. Patterson's back up position would be winger. 

Edited December 13, 2023 by Tartan blood

[Scot1]

1 hour ago, Tartan blood said:

I think Hickey and Souttar would be more than capable of slotting in during an injury crisis, but I really don't see it ever happening. McGregor and Gilmour are most likely first choice, then you have McKenna, Christie, McTominay, Armstrong and McGinn who can all play that role. Jack as well. Though his Scotland career is rapidly fizzling out.

Knowing all of the aforementioned players can play defensive mid means Souttar and Hickey are pretty unlikely to ever be considered there. I think Souttar will actually struggle to get in a 23 man squad in general.

Having players that can play more than 1 position is vital. But Hickey's backup up position is left back. Patterson's back up position would be winger. 

My concern with a midfield of McGregor and Gilmour is we get “outmuscled” in midfield. This will have the likely affect of the likes of McGinn and McTominay dropping deeper more often than not to compensate. This will result in us playing more in a “counter attacking” style. And it’ll mean we will again look like we aren’t taking the game to Hungary or Switzerland or even Germany. When Clarke has probably set up the team to be on the front foot. That’s why I think it’s so important to have someone who is more athletic, who has more physicality in centre mid alongside our playmaker (most probably McGregor). 

[todd]

3 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

Well mctominay is our player. Hes hardly gunna start a discussion on Luke Shaw or rashford as that would be irrelevant to Scotland fans. 

Well it read to me like the reason man utd were failing was because Mctominay isn't good enough for them. In fact that is what he said

[mccaughey85]

1 hour ago, todd said:

Well it read to me like the reason man utd were failing was because Mctominay isn't good enough for them. In fact that is what he said

Well the truth is he probably isnt good enough for them. Man utd have loads of players who are not good enough to challenge for the title. 

They need to replace most of their team with better players.

[BryanBlessed]

5 hours ago, todd said:

Surely the same should be said for the whole Man Utd team then, why just single out Mctominay?

Because he's the only one who plays for Scotland. Man Utd have a lot of players who aren't good enough to mount a title challenge.

[BryanBlessed]

1 hour ago, todd said:

Well it read to me like the reason man utd were failing was because Mctominay isn't good enough for them. In fact that is what he said

No it isn't. 

[BryanBlessed]

4 hours ago, ProudScot said:

Man U are miles off the title.

Where they are at currently McTominay is close to their best player. He’s easily good enough for Aston Villa, Newcastle, Spurs and other clubs in and around the top 6.

 

The only potential takers were West Ham in the last transfer window. He wasn't even particularly highly regarded by Scotland fans until the last campaign. He does really well for us but I can see why other clubs might not want him.

[ProudScot]

44 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

Well the truth is he probably isnt good enough for them. Man utd have loads of players who are not good enough to challenge for the title. 

They need to replace most of their team with better players.

They are a Europa league level club. Hes easily good enough for them.

They haven’t been title challengers for donkeys