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8 hours ago, aaid said:

Imagine someone was suggesting that there should be a limit on the number of black players that could play in a game and how that would fly. It'd be okay though because you'd be paying them.

It is common though around the world right?
La Liga regulations permit up to three "foreign" players per team (Players with ancestry of an EU country may also use this to be counted as an EU player, and therefore not as foreign)
MLS has a foreign player limit of 8 in the squad.
A League in Australia allows 5 foreign players.
The Russians have a rule that no less than five players eligible to play for Russia should be on the field at all times.

 

Edited by infamous

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2 hours ago, infamous said:

It is common though around the world right?
La Liga regulations permit up to three "foreign" players per team (Players with ancestry of an EU country may also use this to be counted as an EU player, and therefore not as foreign)
MLS has a foreign player limit of 8 in the squad.
A League in Australia allows 5 foreign players.
The Russians have a rule that no less than five players eligible to play for Russia should be on the field at all times.

 

Different countries have different laws though that's the whole point.    Again it's not whether or not it's a good thing, it's whether - in Scotland - it would be legal and it wouldn't. 

In the UK - immigration being reserved to Westminster - curbs on the number of non-EU players are put in place by the immigration system, they have to get work permits which isn't straightforward for all but the best players.   Once they have the work permit and are legally employed then they are entitled to all the same rights and protections as anyone else.

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On 10/7/2019 at 11:46 PM, The_Dark_Knight said:

I’m back in time for the Russia away match. I have to say, my prediction of losing 0-2 and 0-3 (Actual results: 1-2 and 0-4) wasn't all that bad, barring a couple of goals. At least I got the results right. I still say that Russia will beat us in the upcoming match 5-0. (If the pattern of an extra goal being scored continues then it’ll be 6-0)
The football international rankings is a bottomless pit, and with the help of the SFA, the Scotland team are sinking to lower and lower depths.

The SFA don't care about the Scotland football team, the managers, the players or the fans. They never have. They have a history of blatant disregard to anything regarding the Scotland national team if it means them investing money and effort. It's not a new thing, the SFA have been treating Scotland managers, players and fans with contempt for as long as they've been in existence:

During the World Cup in 1954 we were allowed a squad of 18 players, but we took 13 (two were goalkeepers), the rest of the plane was taken up by SFA committee members and their wives. Our boots and strips were from the 30’s. The tops were so heavy that Tommy Docherty said that he lost a couple of stone during the national anthem, the players were sweating that much.

During the World Cup in ’78 our players were holed in a hotel was wasn’t 100% built, the swimming pool wasn’t filled with water and the training ground resembled a tennis hard-court. Not only that, but when Willie Johnston got hauled over the coals and sent home for “drug abuse” (He took Reactivan, a hayfever medication) Instead of sticking by him, fighting tooth and nail and insisting that it was all an honest mix-up, and threatening FIFA with an ultimatum of “If Johnston goes home, we all do”, the SFA just watched from afar as Johnston was fed to the wolves and treated like a common criminal.

I was watching the documentary “Scotland 78: A love Story (I recorded it on TiVo a few months ago) -

The drop in standard of players from that era to now isn't worth thinking about, unless you want exasperation and depression to be on the menu. It's frightening.

Looking at club football. Why the hell is there four leagues? What is the point of having three leagues of ten and one league of twelve? For the life of me I'll never understand why our leagues are so small. If a league is small it pretty much makes every single match a must-win (Unless you're Celtic or Rangers), even for the likes of Aberdeen, three or four defeats in a row and you'll find yourself in a relegation battle. In such a pressure cooker environment managers are forced to look towards the lower English leagues for seasoned professionals rather than blooding untested and raw kids from their youth system. If leagues were bigger this would give managers more scope to bring kids through and give them game-time as not every match would be a six-pointer.

In Scottish football there should be a homegrown rule. Many other countries have one, it's typical of Scottish football that we're last in the queue. There should also be a limit of how many foreign players in match squads. I've debated this a while back and someone said that it was against the law and that it was discriminatory, etc. It's not against the law. It would only be against discriminatory law if zero foreigners were allowed in a match day squad. That isn't the case. Teams would be able to buy as many foreigners as they like, but they'd be obliged to play a limited amount. Again, not against the law. In the early-mid 90s there was a three foreigner rule in the European Cup, it wasn't abolished because of law, it was abolished because the bigger teams in Europe weren't happy with being handicapped by being restricted to playing a certain amount of foreign players.

The blame doesn't entirely fall at the door of the SFA, though. The clubs in Scotland have an odd philosophy. It’s like they’re living each day as it comes, irrespective of what tomorrow brings. If clubs in Scotland really invested in youth development it could be a goldmine. Just look at Ajax, in the 19/20 season they’ve brought in £185.1m from selling playing that have come through their youth system. Scottish teams have the capacity of doing this, if they work with their respective council, etc, they could quite easily follow the Ajax template. Hell, Celtic are loaded, they have the capacity and resources to be able to build their own facilities without the help of a council’s financial aid. 

But no, that would require progressive thinking and patience. “Why wait 10+ years to produce a player worth £50+m when we can bring in a player for £3m-£7m now”.
And don’t talk to me about Celtic producing Forrest, McGregor, Tierney. Those players, in today’s market, would probably fetch £65m between them? Ajax produce £65+m players.

instead of coaching their own, and creating a conveyor belt of superstars the other ten clubs would rather pay wages to some veteran from English league two, etc. And Celtic would rather spend tens of millions on foreign kids, because they don’t have the time to bring through their own, and besides, it’s beneath them… they once won the European Cup, you know.... Yep. Bringing through their own is own is good enough for Barcelona and Ajax, etc, but it’s beneath Celtic and Rangers. And yes, not leaving Rangers out of the narrative. Spending £7m on a player who Liverpool deem not good enough for them, that’s a shrewd piece of business.

The ONLY thing that the SFA have gotten right in their entire existence has been to introduce the performance schools. If the stories are true and they scrap them, I’m afraid it’s time to turn off the lights and lock the door. If they do close those Schools then I hope it would prompt the Tartan Army, en mass, to completely turn their backs on attending matches and purchasing merchandise. (I was going to say "completely turn their back on the Scotland national team, but no matter how bad it gets, I'll still support the team and the manager) The only way to get our message across and to show them how angry we are is by hitting them in the pocket. After attending matches since I was 14 years old I've decided that enough is enough. I'm not going to line the pockets of suits that don't care if we win, lose or draw.

The SFA have to go. What we need to do is create a footballing equivalent of Extinction rebellion and storm Hampden. Would it shut down Scottish football? Yes, but the end justifies the means. Who even cares about Scottish football anyway? I don't even bother to watch Sportscene anymore, never mind attending matches or watching matches on the TV. I'm done feeding the corrupt monsters of the SPL and the SFA. You could slip into a coma at the start of the SPL season, wake up at the end, and you'd know who wins the league. That isn't sport. Knowing the result of a sporting even before it begins is the defining of corruption. People will probably through "loyalty" at me for a reason why they attend matches. There's a thin line between being loyal and being a mug. And no, I'm not a "glory hunter", either. A glory hunting Scotland fan is a misnomer.

The suits who haunt Hampden should be sacked. Replaced by football people, a mix of people who have spent their lives in football and also progressive people. 

If some sort of change doesn't happen at the top, very soon, we're going to get worse. In football there is no bottomless pit, it just keeps dropping and dropping and dropping….

With all due respect to players like Forrest and Mulgrew and Jack and McGregor, etc, they are limited players and if everything was rosy, and the SFA actually did there job in the 90s, we'd be flush with top players and the aforementioned four wouldn't even make the bench. I'm not even going to mention calling up Gallagher and Shankland and looking at Dykes. But that's where we are. We've hit the lowest level that we've ever hit. It's gotten to the point where I'm expecting us to ship at least five against Russia and as far as San Marino go... I wouldn't be surprised if we draw it.

The SFA and Scottish domestic clubs have put their own self-interest before their fans. They've robbed this generation an opportunity of seeing Scotland participate at a top European or a World football event, as well as the Scotland fans who have passed away having never seen us compete in the most recent eleven tournaments. They've lost a generation of football fans, a generation who are either apathetic of the Scotland football team or they're just embarrassed by it.

I consider myself a part of the last generation of Scotland fans who will have witnessed (and be proud of) the Scotland national team compete at a European Championships and a World Cup. I was one of the lucky ones. I grew up and went to School during the years of Euro 96 and France 98. I feel for the younger generation of Scotland fan who have never experienced us go toe-to-toe with the likes of Brazil and England and Holland at a major football event and compete against them. I genuinely feel sorry the younger generation as they'll never, ever, see Scotland compete at the very top level. The fault lays squarely on the shoulders of the SFA and the domestic clubs.

In the past I've been accused of being negative. I'm not negative. I'm honest. Our domestic game is a joke, so much so that one of our most regular annual game is "Which tiny European team, that no one has heard of, will knock our teams out of the Qualifying stages for European football this year?". The SPL is a national disgrace, just this weekend Livingston played Celtic and played Rangers. The current market value of Livingston's players is £2.7m, opposed to the £57.3m of Celtic. Hamilton have a market value of £2m and Rangers have a value of £19.8. This imbalance is making Scottish football crumble.

The death of Scottish football is nigh.

Lol your back with a vengeance. Being serious good to see you back, your just lucky we never scored more than one goal. 

Most of your points are spot on but I still feel you are very negative considering we have a some players playing well in the epl. We have tierney, mctominay and Robertson at top 6 epl clubs, potentially we could have 5 or 6 players playing at top 6 clubs next season with mcginn and Fraser looking like they will move up. Gilmour might break through permanently at Chelsea as well. Saying that a few more genuine epl class players are needed in key positions. To me considering our country size we can't be expected to produce much more than that. As I have asked you before, can you name 6 or 7 countries under 8/9 million that produce significantly better players than us, personally I can name about 4.

Part of the decline in our game coincides with the globalisation of football imo. We are seeing the top leagues in Europe pulling in players from all over the world to the point where the epl is full of different nationalities from all over the world. By the sheer numbers you are going to get better players by casting your net out to the world as opposed to just the UK which is where your big clubs in Britain used to recruit from. It's alot harder for young Scots to break through at epl clubs when there are the finest talents from all over the world in the senior and youth squad of clubs like man city. Also our kids ain't living in the kind of poverty which makes them want to succeed. Throw in xboxs and fizzy juice diets we have obese kids with no drive to play sports.

Anyways it's not all doom and gloom as we do have some talents coming through which can hopefully reverse the trend of not qualifying for tournaments.

I think you are little off with your 5 nil prediction as we only lost 2-1 in the last game although we were admittedly very poor. I think we will lose 2 nil but hoping for a draw.

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11 hours ago, aaid said:

It's not different as both race and nationality are protected characteristics under the law.

The two scenarios are exactly the same.

The question isn't what's best for Scottish Football, it's whether the SFA should be held accountable for not implementing a scheme while would be illegal.

Even if it were to be beneficial, it's not something the SFA could do.

Football doesn't exist in some little vacuum where the law doesn't apply.

I dont think you have read what ive said properly and instead went on to lecturre me on the blantantly obvious....

Edited by Morrisandmoo

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21 minutes ago, Morrisandmoo said:

I dont think you have read what ive said properly and instead went on to lecturre me on the blantantly obvious....

You said that you thought discrimation on the basis of race and nationality were different, they aren't.   The rationale behind why someone would want to discriminate on the basis of race may be a lot more sinister than a sincere attempt to encourage youth development but under the law, the discrimination would be the same.

You then said you thought that the home grown players rules in England was discriminatory.  It isn't, it's solely based on a player being with an English club for a defined period during their development, it makes no difference what nationality the player is.  Hence you have players like Cesc Fabregas who is considered as home grown.

What did I miss?

Edited by aaid
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1 hour ago, mccaughey85 said:

Lol your back with a vengeance. Being serious good to see you back, your just lucky we never scored more than one goal. 

Most of your points are spot on but I still feel you are very negative considering we have a some players playing well in the epl. We have tierney, mctominay and Robertson at top 6 epl clubs, potentially we could have 5 or 6 players playing at top 6 clubs next season with mcginn and Fraser looking like they will move up. Gilmour might break through permanently at Chelsea as well. Saying that a few more genuine epl class players are needed in key positions. To me considering our country size we can't be expected to produce much more than that. As I have asked you before, can you name 6 or 7 countries under 8/9 million that produce significantly better players than us, personally I can name about 4.

Part of the decline in our game coincides with the globalisation of football imo. We are seeing the top leagues in Europe pulling in players from all over the world to the point where the epl is full of different nationalities from all over the world. By the sheer numbers you are going to get better players by casting your net out to the world as opposed to just the UK which is where your big clubs in Britain used to recruit from. It's alot harder for young Scots to break through at epl clubs when there are the finest talents from all over the world in the senior and youth squad of clubs like man city. Also our kids ain't living in the kind of poverty which makes them want to succeed. Throw in xboxs and fizzy juice diets we have obese kids with no drive to play sports.

Anyways it's not all doom and gloom as we do have some talents coming through which can hopefully reverse the trend of not qualifying for tournaments.

I think you are little off with your 5 nil prediction as we only lost 2-1 in the last game although we were admittedly very poor. I think we will lose 2 nil but hoping for a draw.

:lol:  Thank you.

Really? And that was me being positive. :P  The players you listed still have question marks hanging over them. A lot of fans are questioning Tierney's commitment. This is McTominay's first season of being a first-team regular, and to be honest, he's regressing... as are all the Man United players. Doesn't help that he's playing out of position. Playing McTominay and Pogba as anchormen... you wonder why some people have such big in football management. And we all know how amazing Robertson is. It's nice to see McGinn doing well, but it's less nice to see Fraser having an intimate relationship with the bench this season.

I wanted Hornby and Gilmour in this squad. They aren't to learn anything in the U21s.

Uruguay, Switzerland, Sweden Denmark, Wales, Austria. Looking at the FIFA rankings, all those countries are in the top 27.

Over the years it's just how we train our kids (or don't train them). In France, Holland, Germany, even England now, the skill-sets are implemented into their youth at the foundation-level. This why when our "seasoned" pros are faced with a stressful situation on the park, their reactionary impulse is to kick it as high and as far as possible, as opposed to the foreign equivalent that has the imparted skill-sets to condition the situation whilst maintaining possession of the football. Hopefully the Performance schools work out, and hopefully the SFA don't ditch them.

It was 2-1, but it was going on 7-1, to be fair. Apparently Putin is going to attend the match, I think this'll motivate the Russians even more.

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12 hours ago, ger intae them said:

..... s’mbdy pls offer him a big chariddy bet ...... pls

I'm actually starting to enjoy his/her/its posts, I dont see them all because it's on ignore but it's funny as fuck when you see he lengths they go to prove a point on a message board. Incredibly they've found an even more long winded way of being an arrogant asshole and telling everyon ehow awesome 3 at the back is and how shit the SFA are.😂😂😂😂😂😂

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51 minutes ago, aaid said:

You said that you thought discrimation on the basis of race and nationality were different, they aren't.   The rationale behind why someone would want to discriminate on the basis of race may be a lot more sinister than a sincere attempt to encourage youth development but under the law, the discrimination would be the same.

You then said you thought that the home grown players rules in England was discriminatory.  It isn't, it's solely based on a player being with an English club for a defined period during their development, it makes no difference what nationality the player is.  Hence you have players like Cesc Fabregas who is considered as home grown.

What did I miss?

You are missing quite a lot by funelling your thoughts and argument through the narrow prism of what is legal or not. And compounding that by mistakenly thinking that others are (1) ignorant of the law (2) also applying a similarly simplistic thought process. 

You explain clearly why discrimination in question here (on basis of nationality for the benfit of youth development) is different from racism.

Similarly the homegrown rule in england, when viewed in context, means that it does (in fact) discriminate and (in fact) intends to. The context being that the limitations on cross border youth transfers means that a homegrown rule results (necesaarily) in the vast majority of those players being English and that is the full point. It is legal because the law looks at the apparent form rather than looking through to the actual result and intent. 

The point being that if the SFA wanted to it could put in place a rule that intends to discriminate in favour of Scotftsh players, and results in that favourable treatment, while taking a form that is legal (as in England). 

Legal argument aside, which is an overly simplistic way to look at these things. Given that law should help rather than hinder positive societal outcomes (and can be changed to ensure that is the case). I dont actually believe that discriminating against forwign players would resultin a better Scottish national team - so no point.

 

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1 hour ago, The_Dark_Knight said:

:lol:  Thank you.

Really? And that was me being positive. :P  The players you listed still have question marks hanging over them. A lot of fans are questioning Tierney's commitment. This is McTominay's first season of being a first-team regular, and to be honest, he's regressing... as are all the Man United players. Doesn't help that he's playing out of position. Playing McTominay and Pogba as anchormen... you wonder why some people have such big in football management. And we all know how amazing Robertson is. It's nice to see McGinn doing well, but it's less nice to see Fraser having an intimate relationship with the bench this season.

I wanted Hornby and Gilmour in this squad. They aren't to learn anything in the U21s.

Uruguay, Switzerland, Sweden Denmark, Wales, Austria. Looking at the FIFA rankings, all those countries are in the top 27.

Over the years it's just how we train our kids (or don't train them). In France, Holland, Germany, even England now, the skill-sets are implemented into their youth at the foundation-level. This why when our "seasoned" pros are faced with a stressful situation on the park, their reactionary impulse is to kick it as high and as far as possible, as opposed to the foreign equivalent that has the imparted skill-sets to condition the situation whilst maintaining possession of the football. Hopefully the Performance schools work out, and hopefully the SFA don't ditch them.

It was 2-1, but it was going on 7-1, to be fair. Apparently Putin is going to attend the match, I think this'll motivate the Russians even more.

Mctominay hasn't regressed, he's just in a very poor man United team. As for Fraser I wouldn't look to much into his spell on the bench, he will still be wanted by bigger clubs come January or the end of the season. He will start to get more starts for Bournemouth as well especially if they want to stay up, cos the guys still a class player.

Switzerland,Wales and Austria don't produce better players than us. Wales recently have produced some top players but over the last 30 years they haven't had better players than us overall. Switzerland and Austria have never produced significantly better players in the last 30 years. A quick look at both squads will show a similar level of player with maybe a few more quality players in their favour but overall there isn't a massive difference. FIFA rankings are not to be used as a yardstick, some poor squads can managed properly and get good results. Even ourselves in recent years have gotten high up the rankings with our relatively poor squads. Sweden are 10m(double our pop.), so they don't count, maybe not massively bigger than us but it makes a fair difference. Imagine if we had double the top players we have right now then we would be a really good team/squad.

So you have managed to name Uruguay and Denmark, I will throw in Croatia as well. So there's 3 countries of below 9m that consistently produce much better players than us and even then I wouldn't say Denmark is massively better. 

As I said before my expectations are to have another 5 or 6 genuine epl class players to add to what we have. Ideally they would be in the positions we desperately need like centre back or striker. Expecting more than this is a bit like expecting Kilmarnock or motherwell to start signing players from the epl or to sign guys for 8m. It's never going to happen. 

As for the Russia game it was 2-1, doesn't matter if it could of been 7-1, you could say that we underperformed so it's unlikely we will be as bad in this upcoming game. You already got the last prediction regarding us not scoring a goal. I think you will be wrong with this prediction of 5 nil, Russia are not that good and we don't usually get beat 5 nil by a team of Russia's level.

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Mctominay hasn’t regressed, he just wasn’t that great to begin with. If he’s as good as Fletcher was we’ll be lucky but I don’t see him going beyond that level. 

Edited by ParisInAKilt

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8 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

Mctominay hasn't regressed, he's just in a very poor man United team. As for Fraser I wouldn't look to much into his spell on the bench, he will still be wanted by bigger clubs come January or the end of the season. He will start to get more starts for Bournemouth as well especially if they want to stay up, cos the guys still a class player.

Switzerland,Wales and Austria don't produce better players than us. Wales recently have produced some top players but over the last 30 years they haven't had better players than us overall. Switzerland and Austria have never produced significantly better players in the last 30 years. A quick look at both squads will show a similar level of player with maybe a few more quality players in their favour but overall there isn't a massive difference. FIFA rankings are not to be used as a yardstick, some poor squads can managed properly and get good results. Even ourselves in recent years have gotten high up the rankings with our relatively poor squads. Sweden are 10m(double our pop.), so they don't count, maybe not massively bigger than us but it makes a fair difference. Imagine if we had double the top players we have right now then we would be a really good team/squad.

So you have managed to name Uruguay and Denmark, I will throw in Croatia as well. So there's 3 countries of below 9m that consistently produce much better players than us and even then I wouldn't say Denmark is massively better. 

As I said before my expectations are to have another 5 or 6 genuine epl class players to add to what we have. Ideally they would be in the positions we desperately need like centre back or striker. Expecting more than this is a bit like expecting Kilmarnock or motherwell to start signing players from the epl or to sign guys for 8m. It's never going to happen. 

As for the Russia game it was 2-1, doesn't matter if it could of been 7-1, you could say that we underperformed so it's unlikely we will be as bad in this upcoming game. You already got the last prediction regarding us not scoring a goal. I think you will be wrong with this prediction of 5 nil, Russia are not that good and we don't usually get beat 5 nil by a team of Russia's level.

This is a pivotal time for McTominay's career. He has no one to learn from and look up to. People talk about the Class of 92, but they had players like Pallister, Parker, Irwin, Bruce, Keane, Schmeichel, Ince, Hughes, etc, to look to and to learn from, The kids at United have no one of that ilk. I agree about Fraser. I'm confused with regards the whole situation, as Bournemouth have still have a contract for Fraser on the table, what's the incentive for him extending his contract if he's got splinters?

Switzerland currently have 13 players in the Bundesliga (With Leipzig, Borussia Dortmund, Werder Bremen), 2 players in Serie A (One with AC Milan), three in the EPL, 1 player each in the French top league and Portugal's top league. 

Austria have 16 players in German's Bundesliga (Including Leipzig and Bayern Munich) and a player with Inter Milan.

Wales have players with Juventus, Real Madrid, Chelsea, Tottenham, Manchester United and a youngster with Schalke. Plus Ashley Williams is miles better than even our best center backs.

To suggest that Switzerland or Austria don't produce better players than us is ridiculous. Switzerland are 11th in the World and Austria are 27th. Those nations aren't just because of nothing, They're there because they have better players than we do. We're picking players from England's league One and the Scottish Championship, plus a mass amount of players from the SPL and the English Championship. 

Yes, my prediction of us not scoring a goal was wrong. Do you remember the goal we scored? A cross bounced off their keeper, rebounded back to McGinn and he poked it home. Apart from that, I'd say that my predictions were pretty much spot on. I said we'd lose both matches.

And no, we didn't underperform against Russia. We performed just at the level that we're at.

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12 minutes ago, The_Dark_Knight said:

This is a pivotal time for McTominay's career. He has no one to learn from and look up to. People talk about the Class of 92, but they had players like Pallister, Parker, Irwin, Bruce, Keane, Schmeichel, Ince, Hughes, etc, to look to and to learn from, The kids at United have no one of that ilk. I agree about Fraser. I'm confused with regards the whole situation, as Bournemouth have still have a contract for Fraser on the table, what's the incentive for him extending his contract if he's got splinters?

Switzerland currently have 13 players in the Bundesliga (With Leipzig, Borussia Dortmund, Werder Bremen), 2 players in Serie A (One with AC Milan), three in the EPL, 1 player each in the French top league and Portugal's top league. 

Austria have 16 players in German's Bundesliga (Including Leipzig and Bayern Munich) and a player with Inter Milan.

Wales have players with Juventus, Real Madrid, Chelsea, Tottenham, Manchester United and a youngster with Schalke. Plus Ashley Williams is miles better than even our best center backs.

To suggest that Switzerland or Austria don't produce better players than us is ridiculous. Switzerland are 11th in the World and Austria are 27th. Those nations aren't just because of nothing, They're there because they have better players than we do. We're picking players from England's league One and the Scottish Championship, plus a mass amount of players from the SPL and the English Championship. 

Yes, my prediction of us not scoring a goal was wrong. Do you remember the goal we scored? A cross bounced off their keeper, rebounded back to McGinn and he poked it home. Apart from that, I'd say that my predictions were pretty much spot on. I said we'd lose both matches.

And no, we didn't underperform against Russia. We performed just at the level that we're at.

Lol you really are ridiculously negative. If mctominay is a genuine talent he will turn into a really good player no matter where he is, so far he's doing pretty well. It's not like he's at East Fife, he's at man united who still have top players and top coaches. Mctominay will have a good career at man united or another top club and we are lucky he decided to pick us over England. Somehow you have managed to turn his career into a negative. You have done the Same with Fraser just because he's spent a couple of months on the bench of a club he's likely to leave. 

You have listed the players from Switzerland and Austria as if it's better than ours. 

We have about 13 epl players, we have 1 la Liga player and 1 serie a player. 3 of our epl players play for top 6 clubs. Are you trying to suggest that Switzerland and Austria currently have loads more players playing at a top level. Switzerland have 5 more and Austria have 2. Do you consider that a massive difference because I don't. You will always have fluctuations and cycles especially with small countries. My original point was that Switzerland and Austria don't have significantly better players than us and you have somehow interpretated that having a handful more is a significantly better squad or an indication of being much better at producing top players.

Wales in the last 5 or so years have been producing some top players but have never really produced better players than us over a long period. They have had a good batch over the last few years and fair play to them but if your trying to suggest they consistently produce better players than us over the last thirty years then sorry you are wrong.

Yet again you have quoted FIFA rankings as if they are relevant, lots of countries with poor squads outrank countries with better squads, what makes a massive difference is management and we have been under exceptionally poor management over the past ten years and have had relatively poor squads as well.  Put those two factors together and you will end up low down in the rankings. For example Ireland, northern Ireland and Iran are currently ahead of Serbia and Russia, does that mean they have better squads? No it doesn't.

So again we are back to croatia, Uruguay and Denmark. I have allowed Denmark but tbh they only have a handful of better players than us as well but they did have a really good batch of players in the 90s. So 3 nations under 9m are significantly better at producing players than us yet you somehow get pissed off at the fact we are in the same boat as all the other nations of similar size. 

I do agree with you that we should be doing better at producing top players and I agree with you that we have been shambolic in our approach to developing young players. What I want to see is us producing a handful more players that are genuine good players at epl level. This is achievable imo and we need to maximize our small pool of talent along with good management.

You can talk about underperforming or not versus Russia but the fact is we lost by one goal. It was a poor performance that could of yielded a worse scoreline but at the same time our players could of played better and got a result. It was Russia at home, not Spain or Belgium. 

I think you will be very surprised by tomorrow night's game as it's very unlikely we will lose by 5. When was the last time we lost to a team by 5 who were of a similar level to Russia. I honestly couldn't tell you. Maybe you could?

 

 

 

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35 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

Lol you really are ridiculously negative. If mctominay is a genuine talent he will turn into a really good player no matter where he is, so far he's doing pretty well. It's not like he's at East Fife, he's at man united who still have top players and top coaches. Mctominay will have a good career at man united or another top club and we are lucky he decided to pick us over England. Somehow you have managed to turn his career into a negative. You have done the Same with Fraser just because he's spent a couple of months on the bench of a club he's likely to leave. 

You have listed the players from Switzerland and Austria as if it's better than ours. 

We have about 13 epl players, we have 1 la Liga player and 1 serie a player. 3 of our epl players play for top 6 clubs. Are you trying to suggest that Switzerland and Austria currently have loads more players playing at a top level. Switzerland have 5 more and Austria have 2. Do you consider that a massive difference because I don't. You will always have fluctuations and cycles especially with small countries. My original point was that Switzerland and Austria don't have significantly better players than us and you have somehow interpretated that having a handful more is a significantly better squad or an indication of being much better at producing top players.

Wales in the last 5 or so years have been producing some top players but have never really produced better players than us over a long period. They have had a good batch over the last few years and fair play to them but if your trying to suggest they consistently produce better players than us over the last thirty years then sorry you are wrong.

Yet again you have quoted FIFA rankings as if they are relevant, lots of countries with poor squads outrank countries with better squads, what makes a massive difference is management and we have been under exceptionally poor management over the past ten years and have had relatively poor squads as well.  Put those two factors together and you will end up low down in the rankings. For example Ireland, northern Ireland and Iran are currently ahead of Serbia and Russia, does that mean they have better squads? No it doesn't.

So again we are back to croatia, Uruguay and Denmark. I have allowed Denmark but tbh they only have a handful of better players than us as well but they did have a really good batch of players in the 90s. So 3 nations under 9m are significantly better at producing players than us yet you somehow get pissed off at the fact we are in the same boat as all the other nations of similar size. 

I do agree with you that we should be doing better at producing top players and I agree with you that we have been shambolic in our approach to developing young players. What I want to see is us producing a handful more players that are genuine good players at epl level. This is achievable imo and we need to maximize our small pool of talent along with good management.

You can talk about underperforming or not versus Russia but the fact is we lost by one goal. It was a poor performance that could of yielded a worse scoreline but at the same time our players could of played better and got a result. It was Russia at home, not Spain or Belgium. 

I think you will be very surprised by tomorrow night's game as it's very unlikely we will lose by 5. When was the last time we lost to a team by 5 who were of a similar level to Russia. I honestly couldn't tell you. Maybe you could?

 

 

 

Am I, though? It reminds me of the proverb "In the kingdom of the blind the one eyed man is king". It would appear that the vast majority of people here are drunk with delusion: The majority think that Scotland can compete at international level playing two central defenders. It would appear that people think we still have Willie Miller and Alex McLeish playing for us, apart from Gallagher and Mulgrew...

Oh. Apparently people think our best players are central midfielders... and yet they want to play a system (4-2-3-1) that doesn't even accommodate central midfielders. I would understand it if fans wanted to see us playing 4-3-3 or 4-2-2-2-1 or 4-4-2, as those formations use central (box-to-box) midfielders.

It literally is insane. If I didn't know any better I'd think that the majority of people here were secret agents who wanted Scotland to fail.

Hey!! I won't hear you talk like about East Fife! There were my football manager club all those years ago. Oh, I'm not slamming Scott McTominay. On the contrary, I think he's a fantastic player. In pre-season he was head and shoulders better than his team-mates. He's just playing out of position, that might be fine for a seasoned campaigner, but he's just a kid. When Man United bring in a new manager (I like Julian Nagelsmann) I think McTominay will be used and coached properly and he'll flourish. McTominay is the only central midfielder I trust, so I'm far from slamming him.

Switzerland and Austria have a combined 29 players in the German Bundesliga, three in Serie A, three in the EPL. I think I'd take that over 13 players who play in the EPL, 1 in Serie A and 1 in La Liga. How many of those 15 players playing in those leagues will win a trophy this season? One? Robertson. The rest are treading water. Plus I'm not even going to mention Armstrong, Snodgrass and Fraser making the bench all nice and toasty.

Look at the Swiss defence, they have 6 players playing in the Bundesliga. Where do our defenders play? Wigan, Sheffield Wednesday, Motherwell, Kilmarnock. If you think that's comparable then good luck to you. Austria have 5 from the Bundesliga and 1 from a small club called AC Milan. Both have keepers from the Bundesliga, whereas, our goalkeepers play for Portsmouth, Wigan and Sunderland.

Look at the midfield, the latest Swiss team they called up 6 midfielders: 4 from the Bundesliga, 1 from Serie A and 1 from Arsenal. Austria have 5 from the Bundesliga (2 from Leipzig) and 1 from Inter Milan. We have limited players like McGregor, Christie, Forrest, Fleck and Armstrong. Again, this isn't comparable.

In attack the Swiss have 2 from Bundesliga, one at Benfica and one in the EPL. The Austrians have 4 in the Bundesliga. We have a player in the MLS and the Scottish Championship. LOL!!!!

From the current squads, the Swiss top goal scorer has 17, the Austrian top marksman has 26 and our top scoring striker is Shankland, with 0. Unless you want to call Burke or Russell strikers, which I don't, and I won't.

So yes, the Austrian team and the Swiss team are better than ours. Before I did my research I didn't know just how far superior to us they are.

Whoa there! Three countries under 9m are better at producing players than us? Austria, Croatia, Uruguay, Switzerland and Denmark are five. In the rankings I stopped at 27, so I'm sure they'd be another ten or eleven countries who are better at it than we are.

I like the performance schools, In theory. I think it's long overdue and the more training and more professionally our kids are trained, the better. Let's just hope the SFA don't pull the plug. From the match against Belarus I wouldn't exactly say that our kids are better than the ones that have come before them, but it's a long term strategy. I've heard people say stuff like "Our kids now play patient football, almost total-football", etc. Yeah.... Not so much. I mean, if you can't beat Japan or Belarus then I think comparing our kids to the ideology of the Dutch is a little bit of a stretch.

But as I said, long term stategy.

From memory, I think the last time we lost by 5 was against Portugal in 92, I think. You could make the argument that that Portugal team is better than this Russia team, but you could also say that that Scotland team was better than this Scotland team.

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11 hours ago, ParisInAKilt said:

Mctominay hasn’t regressed, he just wasn’t that great to begin with. If he’s as good as Fletcher was we’ll be lucky but I don’t see him going beyond that level. 

Player of the month for Manchester United in September.

He's currently outshining (by a distance) two midfielders that cost a combined £141m.

He's having to carry the Man United midfield by himself, the same way that Dan James in carrying his fellow attackers. If every Manchester United player had the same passion and heart as McTominay they'd be top of the league.

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12 hours ago, vanderark14 said:

I'm actually starting to enjoy his/her/its posts, I dont see them all because it's on ignore but it's funny as fuck when you see he lengths they go to prove a point on a message board. Incredibly they've found an even more long winded way of being an arrogant asshole and telling everyon ehow awesome 3 at the back is and how shit the SFA are.😂😂😂😂😂😂

Errrr…. No. 3 at the back isn't awesome.

Never once said it was.

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49 minutes ago, The_Dark_Knight said:

Player of the month for Manchester United in September.

He's currently outshining (by a distance) two midfielders that cost a combined £141m.

He's having to carry the Man United midfield by himself, the same way that Dan James in carrying his fellow attackers. If every Manchester United player had the same passion and heart as McTominay they'd be top of the league.

I don’t doubt his passion and he’s definitely better than Fred. Player of the month in a team that’s shown relegation form since the end of last season isn’t much to get excited about on its own. I think he’s got potential to be a solid midfielder for us, nothing more. I hope I’m wrong.

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5 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

. For example Ireland, northern Ireland and Iran are currently ahead of Serbia and Russia, does that mean they have better squads? No it doesn't.

 

 

 

Yeah, the Russians partly were screwed over due to hosting the World Cup, they went from 25 after Euro 2016 to 70 for the World Cup (Think Germany for 2006 dropped down to 20 from hosting). Agree on your point, FIFA rankings don't mean shit, qualifying regularly and doing stuff at these tournaments is what it is about. 

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16 hours ago, The_Dark_Knight said:

Am I, though? It reminds me of the proverb "In the kingdom of the blind the one eyed man is king". It would appear that the vast majority of people here are drunk with delusion: The majority think that Scotland can compete at international level playing two central defenders. It would appear that people think we still have Willie Miller and Alex McLeish playing for us, apart from Gallagher and Mulgrew...

Oh. Apparently people think our best players are central midfielders... and yet they want to play a system (4-2-3-1) that doesn't even accommodate central midfielders. I would understand it if fans wanted to see us playing 4-3-3 or 4-2-2-2-1 or 4-4-2, as those formations use central (box-to-box) midfielders.

It literally is insane. If I didn't know any better I'd think that the majority of people here were secret agents who wanted Scotland to fail.

Hey!! I won't hear you talk like about East Fife! There were my football manager club all those years ago. Oh, I'm not slamming Scott McTominay. On the contrary, I think he's a fantastic player. In pre-season he was head and shoulders better than his team-mates. He's just playing out of position, that might be fine for a seasoned campaigner, but he's just a kid. When Man United bring in a new manager (I like Julian Nagelsmann) I think McTominay will be used and coached properly and he'll flourish. McTominay is the only central midfielder I trust, so I'm far from slamming him.

Switzerland and Austria have a combined 29 players in the German Bundesliga, three in Serie A, three in the EPL. I think I'd take that over 13 players who play in the EPL, 1 in Serie A and 1 in La Liga. How many of those 15 players playing in those leagues will win a trophy this season? One? Robertson. The rest are treading water. Plus I'm not even going to mention Armstrong, Snodgrass and Fraser making the bench all nice and toasty.

Look at the Swiss defence, they have 6 players playing in the Bundesliga. Where do our defenders play? Wigan, Sheffield Wednesday, Motherwell, Kilmarnock. If you think that's comparable then good luck to you. Austria have 5 from the Bundesliga and 1 from a small club called AC Milan. Both have keepers from the Bundesliga, whereas, our goalkeepers play for Portsmouth, Wigan and Sunderland.

Look at the midfield, the latest Swiss team they called up 6 midfielders: 4 from the Bundesliga, 1 from Serie A and 1 from Arsenal. Austria have 5 from the Bundesliga (2 from Leipzig) and 1 from Inter Milan. We have limited players like McGregor, Christie, Forrest, Fleck and Armstrong. Again, this isn't comparable.

In attack the Swiss have 2 from Bundesliga, one at Benfica and one in the EPL. The Austrians have 4 in the Bundesliga. We have a player in the MLS and the Scottish Championship. LOL!!!!

From the current squads, the Swiss top goal scorer has 17, the Austrian top marksman has 26 and our top scoring striker is Shankland, with 0. Unless you want to call Burke or Russell strikers, which I don't, and I won't.

So yes, the Austrian team and the Swiss team are better than ours. Before I did my research I didn't know just how far superior to us they are.

Whoa there! Three countries under 9m are better at producing players than us? Austria, Croatia, Uruguay, Switzerland and Denmark are five. In the rankings I stopped at 27, so I'm sure they'd be another ten or eleven countries who are better at it than we are.

I like the performance schools, In theory. I think it's long overdue and the more training and more professionally our kids are trained, the better. Let's just hope the SFA don't pull the plug. From the match against Belarus I wouldn't exactly say that our kids are better than the ones that have come before them, but it's a long term strategy. I've heard people say stuff like "Our kids now play patient football, almost total-football", etc. Yeah.... Not so much. I mean, if you can't beat Japan or Belarus then I think comparing our kids to the ideology of the Dutch is a little bit of a stretch.

But as I said, long term stategy.

From memory, I think the last time we lost by 5 was against Portugal in 92, I think. You could make the argument that that Portugal team is better than this Russia team, but you could also say that that Scotland team was better than this Scotland team.

I don't understand why you have added Switzerland and Austrias squads together. It doesn't matter if combined they 29 players in the bundesliga. It still works out that each of those countries has less than a handful more players playing in top European leagues more than us. I wouldn't personally consider that a huge difference. Switzerland and Austria are better managed and have a better spread of good players in key positions. This means they get better results than us but by no means is there squad massively better than ours.

You have brought up certain players on the bench as well, Snodgrass plays regularly for west ham and Fraser has only been benched for a month or so but there's no mention of the fact shaquiri spends most of his time on the Liverpool bench. I am also pretty sure there's bound to be Swiss and Austrian players that are on the bench alot in the bundesliga. It seems like one rule for us and another rule for them if it suits the point you are making.

You have brought up the Swiss defence as an example, but I have never argued that they don't have better defenders than us. Our problem is we don't have good players in key positions like centre back for example. This doesn't mean overall their squad is alot better, what it means is they have a more even spread of players that cover all positions. Our problem is we don't have this, we have good midfielders and wingers and two great left backs. As I said before a few more epl quality players is needed in our squad in key positions in order for us to compete. 

You also want to ignore that we have two top class left backs playing for top 6 sides, do Switzerland or Austria have that, instead you focus on our other defiencies while ignoring the fact we have one of the best left backs in the world who plays for the champions League winners. As I said you focus on the defiencies to make your point if it suits you. You need to look at things in an even handed way instead of just pulling up our faults. If you can't look at our squad and see any positives then it's probably best you support another country because expecting a huge change in quality in players is a bit like expecting Motherwell or rotherham to start producing world class players. 

We have 5 epl central midfielders, one of which plays for man utd but somehow Switzerland and Austria are much better with 6 players from top leagues. Is that a huge difference because I don't think so. 

Strikers we are very poor but as I said we have not got an even spread of talent throughout our squad and that is a huge problem.

As I have maintained both of those countries have a handful of better players than us and so far you have managed to make that point for me. 

So basically we are back to three countries under 9m that produce significantly better players than us over the last 20 plus years unless you can name others which you clearly can't. FIFA rankings mean nothing as I said Ireland, ni and Iran are above Russia and Serbia does that mean they produce better players. The answer is no.

You have trawled back to 92 for a 5 nil drubbing against Portugal but you can't name a 5 nil loss to a team of similar standard to Russia. I think you will have to eat alot of humble pie(again) after tonight because a 5 nil loss is extremely unlikely given our history.

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Squirrelhumper said:

I'm convinced The Dark Knight is a burd - the lengths she goes to argue she's right, even when she knows she's wrong is the only explanation.

What am i wrong about?

Are you saying that we're better than Switzerland and Austria?

Are you saying that the SFA aren't incompetent?

Are you saying that the current system we're using is paying off?

I'm right on all counts. 

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29 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

I don't understand why you have added Switzerland and Austrias squads together. It doesn't matter if combined they 29 players in the bundesliga. It still works out that each of those countries has less than a handful more players playing in top European leagues more than us. I wouldn't personally consider that a huge difference. Switzerland and Austria are better managed and have a better spread of good players in key positions. This means they get better results than us but by no means is there squad massively better than ours.

You have brought up certain players on the bench as well, Snodgrass plays regularly for west ham and Fraser has only been benched for a month or so but there's no mention of the fact shaquiri spends most of his time on the Liverpool bench. I am also pretty sure there's bound to be Swiss and Austrian players that are on the bench alot in the bundesliga. It seems like one rule for us and another rule for them if it suits the point you are making.

You have brought up the Swiss defence as an example, but I have never argued that they don't have better defenders than us. Our problem is we don't have good players in key positions like centre back for example. This doesn't mean overall their squad is alot better, what it means is they have a more even spread of players that cover all positions. Our problem is we don't have this, we have good midfielders and wingers and two great left backs. As I said before a few more epl quality players is needed in our squad in key positions in order for us to compete. 

You also want to ignore that we have two top class left backs playing for top 6 sides, do Switzerland or Austria have that, instead you focus on our other defiencies while ignoring the fact we have one of the best left backs in the world who plays for the champions League winners. As I said you focus on the defiencies to make your point if it suits you. You need to look at things in an even handed way instead of just pulling up our faults. If you can't look at our squad and see any positives then it's probably best you support another country because expecting a huge change in quality in players is a bit like expecting Motherwell or rotherham to start producing world class players. 

We have 5 epl central midfielders, one of which plays for man utd but somehow Switzerland and Austria are much better with 6 players from top leagues. Is that a huge difference because I don't think so. 

Strikers we are very poor but as I said we have not got an even spread of talent throughout our squad and that is a huge problem.

As I have maintained both of those countries have a handful of better players than us and so far you have managed to make that point for me. 

So basically we are back to three countries under 9m that produce significantly better players than us over the last 20 plus years unless you can name others which you clearly can't. FIFA rankings mean nothing as I said Ireland, ni and Iran are above Russia and Serbia does that mean they produce better players. The answer is no.

You have trawled back to 92 for a 5 nil drubbing against Portugal but you can't name a 5 nil loss to a team of similar standard to Russia. I think you will have to eat alot of humble pie(again) after tonight because a 5 nil loss is extremely unlikely given our history.

 

 

I'll reply after the matches.

I don't know if it's sweet or deranged that you think that we're as good as those two teams. Both of this two are in the mix to qualify.  This time last year the Swiss best Belgium 5-2 in the Nations League.

Whereas, Kazakhstan trounce us 4-0 and we need a last-minute winner to beat Cyprus.

So many here have their head in the collective clouds. 

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40 minutes ago, Squirrelhumper said:

I'm convinced The Dark Knight is a burd - the lengths she goes to argue she's right, even when she knows she's wrong is the only explanation.

Wait, is it not the done thing for people in this place to substantiate their view and opinions?

And I'm going to ignore your incredibly misogynistic and derogatory comment about women.

"I'm convinced Squirrelhumper is a spineless man as he talks about people in the third person and not directly to them."

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16 minutes ago, The_Dark_Knight said:

I'll reply after the matches.

I don't know if it's sweet or deranged that you think that we're as good as those two teams. Both of this two are in the mix to qualify.  This time last year the Swiss best Belgium 5-2 in the Nations League.

Whereas, Kazakhstan trounce us 4-0 and we need a last-minute winner to beat Cyprus.

So many here have their head in the collective clouds. 

First of all I have never said we are as good as those two teams. I have said that they don't have massively better squads and they don't produce loads of better players than us. They produce a handful more players who play in the top leagues and those players are spread across their team meaning they have a good player in each position. 

It's a valid point that very few nations under 9m produce significantly better squads or players than us. The three you are able to name are croatia, Uruguay and Denmark. As we discussed at length Switzerland and Austria only have a handful of players more than us playing in the top leagues. There's alot of squads that are poorer than ours who are higher in the rankings like Iceland and northern Ireland but that doesn't suit your argument. Nearly all Small countries do not produce squads of world class or top players and we are no different.

Kazakhstan beat us 3 nil tbf. Not that it's alot better. 

 

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