Ally Bongo Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 (edited) 18 minutes ago, aaid said: Not bothering to do a minutes scouting on Peru or Iran? In his mind we had the better players and it was more about what we did than them But yes - today it is unthinkable However we never lost to Peru and drew with Iran because they were not scouted by MacLeod IMO - it's just another stick to beat him with and ignoring what had gone beforehand with the accommodation and bonuses issues We lost to Peru because we were missing McGrain and McQueen, MacLeod's loyalty to Rioch and Masson and an unhappy squad due to the SFA Edited June 9, 2018 by Ally Bongo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fringo Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 I think the whole Argentina '78 experience and emotional rollercoaster is summed up by the famous quote : "Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 5 minutes ago, Marky said: To say he was hampered by those two losses is an understatement in the extreme. They were massive losses. McGrain was arguably the best full back in the world at the time and Kenny Burns was certainly no McQueen. Indeed. McLeod was guilty of complacency, but he wasn’t the only one. He wasn’t guilty of over confidence. The confidence was very much an asset. Err, Kenny Burns won the League and was the player of the year in England that season. The truly great and successful has huge confidence in their abilities, the also have abilities that back up that confidence.  Having self confidence in itself isn't enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 1 hour ago, aaid said: Err, Kenny Burns won the League and was the player of the year in England that season. The truly great and successful has huge confidence in their abilities, the also have abilities that back up that confidence.  Having self confidence in itself isn't enough. Andy Gray was Player of the Year and Young Player of the Year and didn't even get in the squad. So I'm not sure what your point is here. Kenny Burns was nowhere near as good as McQueen. McQueen was possibly the best centre half in the world at the time. Burns would have been pushed to make the top 50.  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 3 minutes ago, Orraloon said: Andy Gray was Player of the Year and Young Player of the Year and didn't even get in the squad. So I'm not sure what your point is here. Kenny Burns was nowhere near as good as McQueen. McQueen was possibly the best centre half in the world at the time. Burns would have been pushed to make the top 50.  You're kind of making my point for me be mentioning him not selecting Andy Gray. So he didn't pick Andy Gray, didn't play Derek Johnstone,  played Bruce Rioch and Don Masson that were past it.  Didn't do any work on the opposition but it was all down to Danny McGrain and Gordon McQueen being injured.  Gie's peace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 2 hours ago, Ally Bongo said: Â MacLeod was hampered by the injuries to McGrain and McQueen I Â Â Don't forget Sandy Jardine. I know he was there and played but I'm pretty sure he wasn't fully fit. That's 3 of the best defenders in the world at the time. Willie Donachie, our back up left back, was suspended. So he had to totally rebuild the defence. Buchan, Burns and Kennedy were very good players but not nearly as good as the guys who were missing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 17 minutes ago, aaid said: You're kind of making my point for me be mentioning him not selecting Andy Gray. So he didn't pick Andy Gray, didn't play Derek Johnstone,  played Bruce Rioch and Don Masson that were past it.  Didn't do any work on the opposition but it was all down to Danny McGrain and Gordon McQueen being injured.  Gie's peace. My point is that being POTY isn't as important as you are making out. I would have had Gray in the squad in place of Harper. At that point big DJ was a far better player than Andy Gary. I'm not convinced that the non selection of big DJ was all McCloud's decision. I don't remember anybody of any significance suggesting that Masson and Rioch were past it, before a ball was kicked in Cordoba. I am convinced that no manager on the planet would have dropped them at that stage. He made loads of mistakes, no doubt about that, but a lot of the stuff that happened was out of his control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 10 minutes ago, Orraloon said: My point is that being POTY isn't as important as you are making out. I would have had Gray in the squad in place of Harper. At that point big DJ was a far better player than Andy Gary. I'm not convinced that the non selection of big DJ was all McCloud's decision. I don't remember anybody of any significance suggesting that Masson and Rioch were past it, before a ball was kicked in Cordoba. I am convinced that no manager on the planet would have dropped them at that stage. He made loads of mistakes, no doubt about that, but a lot of the stuff that happened was out of his control. Knowing that Willie Donachie would be suspended for the first game, you would think that a manager might think "I need to try out an alternative left back".  Not McLeod though, Donachie played in 3 out of 4 of our warm up matches prior to Argentina. Even if you take the point about injuries to McQueen and McGrain - especially McGrain - being significant, that doesn't really explain how we were unable to score against Iran.  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 17 minutes ago, Orraloon said: I don't remember anybody of any significance suggesting that Masson and Rioch were past it, before a ball was kicked in Cordoba. I am convinced that no manager on the planet would have dropped them at that stage. He made loads of mistakes, no doubt about that, but a lot of the stuff that happened was out of his control. David Lacey of the Guardian did but your are right - it would be hard to drop either of them after their performances the previous summer This is good https://thesefootballtimes.co/2016/04/13/once-upon-a-time-in-argentina-the-story-of-ally-macleod-and-his-tartan-army/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 8 minutes ago, aaid said: Knowing that Willie Donachie would be suspended for the first game, you would think that a manager might think "I need to try out an alternative left back".  Not McLeod though, Donachie played in 3 out of 4 of our warm up matches prior to Argentina. Even if you take the point about injuries to McQueen and McGrain - especially McGrain - being significant, that doesn't really explain how we were unable to score against Iran.  Aye, the Iran game was awful. I wasn't totally surprised by the Peru result. I knew they were a very good side. And Cubillas was still a fantastic player. I think we were so shyte against Iran, at least partly anyway, because our players had had the self belief and confidence knocked out of them after Peru. McCloud didn't have time to build that back up again before Iran. He was too busy trying to deal with all the other shit going on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 7 minutes ago, Orraloon said:  I knew they were a very good side. And Cubillas was still a fantastic player.  We'd have been better with you as manager then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fringo Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 14 minutes ago, Orraloon said: Aye, the Iran game was awful. I wasn't totally surprised by the Peru result. I knew they were a very good side. And Cubillas was still a fantastic player. I think we were so shyte against Iran, at least partly anyway, because our players had had the self belief and confidence knocked out of them after Peru. McCloud didn't have time to build that back up again before Iran. He was too busy trying to deal with all the other shit going on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 22 minutes ago, fringo said: That would've been an upgrade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exile Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 22 hours ago, Ally Bongo said: More to do with the threadbare squad we had rather than Craig Brown going gung ho Despite us starting with 3 forwards (Gallacher Durie and Jackson) we mostly played 4-5-1 from what i can recall    OK fair enough. I may need to look into that. It is a distraction from 1978.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, exile said: OK fair enough. I may need to look into that. It is a distraction from 1978.... http://www.worldfootball.net/teams/schottland-team/wm-1998-in-frankreich/2/  Brutal Edited June 9, 2018 by Ally Bongo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 2 hours ago, fringo said: Sorry, oops. Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 2 hours ago, aaid said: We'd have been better with you as manager then But then we wouldn't have qualified and we would all have missed out on an experience of a lifetime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 2 hours ago, aaid said: We'd have been better with you as manager then I also knew that Cubillas could fairly whack a baw with the outside of his foot, but that doesn't mean I would have made a better effort of stopping him than Alan Rough did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques Hunt Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 I watched this today on iplayer and thought it was very good. Very fair to Ally too; the press built him up and then he took all the flak. He was very naive as we all now know and the stuff about hotel and training facilities was not known by fans until much later. We did have a great squad - as we did in 74 and 82 - but we had gone off the boil and McLeod should have changed things earlier. Fair play to the folk who went over though. I regret allowing myself to fall at first hurdle as mentioned in previous post. Just as in the late sixties as a wee boy in Dunfermline when I did not think about the Pars NOT playing in a European competition, I did not imagine my nation not being at a World Cup finals. We even had the luxury then of dismissing the Euros as unimportant. We have to go to another WC finals very soon, especially for all youze who have never experienced it. For the record, I believe we will get to Qatar. Not saying we’ll win it mind. If we do qualify, make every effort to go. I am lucky enough to have been and, however excruciating it was to get knocked out in first stage, especially in  ‘82, they were fantastic experiences. Wonderful memories and 77/78 was brilliant even though I did not go over to Argentina. Wembley, Hampden, Anfield. Only 2 other teams in our qualifying group. 4 games. Changed days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 45 minutes ago, Jacques Hunt said: Only 2 other teams in our qualifying group. 4 games. Changed days. We've only got 2 other teams in our next group as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim Jim Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 11 hours ago, Orraloon said: We've only got 2 other teams in our next group as well. I'll take that as a good omen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BraveheartGordon Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 (edited) 14 hours ago, Jacques Hunt said: I watched this today on iplayer and thought it was very good. Very fair to Ally too; the press built him up and then he took all the flak. He was very naive as we all now know and the stuff about hotel and training facilities was not known by fans until much later. We did have a great squad - as we did in 74 and 82 - but we had gone off the boil and McLeod should have changed things earlier. Fair play to the folk who went over though. I regret allowing myself to fall at first hurdle as mentioned in previous post. Just as in the late sixties as a wee boy in Dunfermline when I did not think about the Pars NOT playing in a European competition, I did not imagine my nation not being at a World Cup finals. We even had the luxury then of dismissing the Euros as unimportant. We have to go to another WC finals very soon, especially for all youze who have never experienced it. For the record, I believe we will get to Qatar. Not saying we’ll win it mind. If we do qualify, make every effort to go. I am lucky enough to have been and, however excruciating it was to get knocked out in first stage, especially in  ‘82, they were fantastic experiences. Wonderful memories and 77/78 was brilliant even though I did not go over to Argentina. Wembley, Hampden, Anfield. Only 2 other teams in our qualifying group. 4 games. Changed days. I’m 24 and it seems almost unthinkable to me what Scotland being in a major tournament is actually like. Its almost like it’s in the back of my head that we just won’t ever do it again, I don’t think I even feel the crushing disappointment that I used to when we inevitably don’t qualify. The energy of the country playing in a World Cup looked incredible. Must have been some experience. Edited June 10, 2018 by BraveheartGordon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toepoke Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 28 minutes ago, BraveheartGordon said: I’m 24 and it seems almost unthinkable to me what Scotland being in a major tournament is actually like. It's incredible and sad to know so many of the TA have grown up like that. I'd watched us play in 8 tournaments before I was 30.  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques Hunt Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 3 hours ago, BraveheartGordon said: I’m 24 and it seems almost unthinkable to me what Scotland being in a major tournament is actually like. Its almost like it’s in the back of my head that we just won’t ever do it again, I don’t think I even feel the crushing disappointment that I used to when we inevitably don’t qualify. The energy of the country playing in a World Cup looked incredible. Must have been some experience.  I'm nearly 60 so you will have many more years than me to be alive and watch Scotland. In those 70s and 80s tournaments the Holy Grail was not qualifying so much as progressing from the group stages in the finals. Look on the bright side, you may well see us qualify and progress. Maybe even win something!! I reckon 99.9% of fans support unsuccessful teams. Just keep supporting Scotland, be proud and get behind the young men of your age who pull on the jersey. Enjoy supporting Scotland, representing the country abroad and everything that goes with that. Wha's like us? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billy corby Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 I'll go along with most thats being said about the way scotland approached things , taking injured players and not checking the opposition but I think one of the main issues was the shirts ! We had short sleeved airtex and everyone else had long sleeved cotton ! Did nobody check the temperature! ! I rest my case . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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