Optimism or doomed for another glorious failure

[Toepoke]

I don't think you can underestimate the difference bringing Armstrong and Tierney into the side made. And as we know from watching our awful, failing club sides, bringing in a couple of decent players can have a big impact on a campaign...

 

[JECK]

Why do folk still use this term 'glorious failure' when there's absolutely nothing remotely glorious about it? Sounds like it's been attributed by the yoon/cringer media fraternity 

[ProudScot]

5 minutes ago, JECK said:

Why do folk still use this term 'glorious failure' when there's absolutely nothing remotely glorious about it? Sounds like it's been attributed by the yoon/cringer media fraternity 

Yes exactly.

most seem to be forgetting how badly we have been managed throughout this campaign and that we were virtually out after 4 games, two of which were against Malta and Lithuania.

this one could be our most inglorious failure yet...

[wanderer]

Game does give us hope again, but I think its just delaying the inevitable.

So far England are doing what was required of them (from our point of view) and winning their matches against the rest of the group, but end of the day Slovenia came playing for a draw (Slovenian boy I was speaking to who was across for the game says their press is hounding them just now) and its the Lithuania result that has majorly cost us.

Ideal case will be we pick up something v England (thus canceling out the Lithuania result) and Slovakia held by Lithuania in June and then Slovenia in September to set up a winner takes all match at Hampden in October.

Unfortunately I can not see past England beating us and Slovakia beating Lithuania is go further ahead of us (us on 7 and Slovakia on 12...)

[Reevesy]

7 minutes ago, wanderer said:

Game does give us hope again, but I think its just delaying the inevitable.

So far England are doing what was required of them (from our point of view) and winning their matches against the rest of the group, but end of the day Slovenia came playing for a draw (Slovenian boy I was speaking to who was across for the game says their press is hounding them just now) and its the Lithuania result that has majorly cost us.

Ideal case will be we pick up something v England (thus canceling out the Lithuania result) and Slovakia held by Lithuania in June and then Slovenia in September to set up a winner takes all match at Hampden in October.

Unfortunately I can not see past England beating us and Slovakia beating Lithuania is go further ahead of us (us on 7 and Slovakia on 12...)

That's the scenario that I expect after the England game too but Slovakia would still have us and England away so they'd still be within reach. 

At least when we travel to Lithuania we will still be in with a slight chance regardless.

[wanderer]

5 minutes ago, Reevesy said:

That's the scenario that I expect after the England game too but Slovakia would still have us and England away so they'd still be within reach. 

At least when we travel to Lithuania we will still be in with a slight chance regardless.

Yeah, defeat v England is not ideal, but it just makes things that bit more harder for us as its adding in more results elsewhere that we would need to go our way here and there.

[Donaldo87]

England are normally shite in June so I'm hopeful

 

But aye my main worry is it was all a bit of a dead cat bounce. 

[andyD]

4 hours ago, Bino's said:

Naismith buzzed about admirably but without Griffiths pace didn't have the same impact

For me it was more about positioning.. Griffiths led the line and was up the top offering as an outlet, making runs and working angles. Naismith didn't play as a center forward, he spent far too much time deep, was rarely the furthest player forward and often left us with just the winger from the opposite side in the area.

When we play with 1 striker he needs to play as a striker. Griffiths did that.. Naismith didn't.

[ProudScot]

6 minutes ago, andyD said:

For me it was more about positioning.. Griffiths led the line and was up the top offering as an outlet, making runs and working angles. Naismith didn't play as a center forward, he spent far too much time deep, was rarely the furthest player forward and often left us with just the winger from the opposite side in the area.

When we play with 1 striker he needs to play as a striker. Griffiths did that.. Naismith didn't.

Yep Naismith is pretty much done. He has been a good servant and made the most of fairly limited attributes but Griffiths is a much better option than him and wouldn't be surprised to see Naismith out of the squad in the near future. 

[Rossy]

12 minutes ago, andyD said:

For me it was more about positioning.. Griffiths led the line and was up the top offering as an outlet, making runs and working angles. Naismith didn't play as a center forward, he spent far too much time deep, was rarely the furthest player forward and often left us with just the winger from the opposite side in the area.

When we play with 1 striker he needs to play as a striker. Griffiths did that.. Naismith didn't.

Could also be to do with the fact that Forrest dropped out of the game completely around that time, and even though he had an excellent game, Armstrong's performance dropped a bit for around 25 mins in the second half.

For a while in the 2nd half, Naismith was completely isolated and got little support.

Things improved when Anya came on and we pushed a bit further forward. 

[andyD]

I think it's important for us as fans not to be too down if we lose to england.

we're at the half way stage, everyone is pretty much even at this point and we're 2 points off where we need to be. It's fully in our hands right now, and the key games are the ones against out rivals in the group. england will likely take the points from everyone else, it's what they do in qualifying, even getting a draw from them would be really good.

But should we lose we need to keep our heads up, not drop into the doom and gloom of "we're 5 point behind, it's over".

Remember that Slovenia and Slovakia are starting this 2nd half of the fixtures with the two easiest games in the group and we're starting with the hardest. The fixtures will come around and it will still be in our hands.

Really we must get 12 points from the remaining games to be certain. Get that and it's down to what happens in the other groups and Group E looks like being the most contested and so the lowest points come the end. 

While we should play with commitment and try to win each game, the reality is this:

June ultimately doesn't matter.
September we need to be business-like. We must be on at least 13 points come the end of September.
October is where we will truly be tested and that's where out fate should be decided.

So I'm just going to ask everyone to remember that there are 5 games left, not 1. Slovenia were the 2nd best team in the group till they played us, we stifled their game and played ours and ran out deserved winners. We are capable of doing this and we still have good players like Fraser and Philips to in following injuries. It's in our hands now and it still will be regardless of the england result.

[andyD]

2 minutes ago, Rossy said:

Could also be to do with the fact that Forrest dropped out of the game completely around that time, and even though he had an excellent game, Armstrong's performance dropped a bit for around 25 mins in the second half.

For a while in the 2nd half, Naismith was completely isolated and got little support.

Things improved when Anya came on and we pushed a bit further forward. 

To be fair that was the period where Forrest's forward running ahead of Naismith made the chance for Anya.. it was also when Forrest did great to get to the byline.. only for Naismith to stand completely still on the penalty spot, both feet on the ground, behind a couple of defenders, not even trying and offer for a cutback. Instead Morrison was running forwards to try and offer because Naismith was not playing as a striker.

Where you say Naismith was isolated, I'd say he isolated himself, by not being where a striker should be and not offering for the balls like Griffiths did. Not completely against Naismith, he did work back and closed down, but that's what Morrison's job was. I imagine that's why Strachan took Morrison off and put Martin on to play up top was because Naismith had been dropping so deep that our midfield was becoming too congested.

Naismith had a decent few games a couple of years back while playing up front on his own for us, but it seems like he's forgotten how to do it for now. To my mind he's competing with Morrison and Cairney for that slot in behind, and sadly for him they're both better at that role than he is.

[JECK]

This will be our 4th game v England since 2013 and we've yet to beat them - surely to feck we are due something in June 

[ProudScot]

9 minutes ago, JECK said:

This will be our 4th game v England since 2013 and we've yet to beat them - surely to feck we are due something in June 

Due a hiding probably... 

[JECK]

Aye they've hit 3 in each of the last 3 games against us.

(trying not to imagine the scenes of us beating them in June)

[ceudmilefailte]

Slovakia							11/10															1			11/10
Slovenia							7/4															7/4			9/5
Scotland							2															2			2
Lithuania							20															18			17
Malta

 

 

 Odds on who finishes second

[Scout]

I think it was a tale of two games got the team right on Sunday night we can't argue with that and played some good stuff and it was the game that counted - The  Canada game we should have learned a lot more from what's the point of giving Berra - Wallace-  Fletcher - Naysmith etc guys that have played a lot of games for Scotland surely you name two squads and try players out  - All we tried was Cairney who was our best player IMO we could have looked at Liam Lindsay - Kevin Macdonald - Liam Cooper - Murray Wallace - Liam Britdcutt - Scott Bain - Jamie Walker -Jason Cummings- more  game time Jordon Rhodes -Michael Devin plus the Aberdeen lads - I know I named 4 centre backs but that's the problem area it was a great chance to try out and bring younger players who have played a few games back in 

[Caledonian Craig]

28 minutes ago, Scout said:

I think it was a tale of two games got the team right on Sunday night we can't argue with that and played some good stuff and it was the game that counted - The  Canada game we should have learned a lot more from what's the point of giving Berra - Wallace-  Fletcher - Naysmith etc guys that have played a lot of games for Scotland surely you name two squads and try players out  - All we tried was Cairney who was our best player IMO we could have looked at Liam Lindsay - Kevin Macdonald - Liam Cooper - Murray Wallace - Liam Britdcutt - Scott Bain - Jamie Walker -Jason Cummings- more  game time Jordon Rhodes -Michael Devin plus the Aberdeen lads - I know I named 4 centre backs but that's the problem area it was a great chance to try out and bring younger players who have played a few games back in 

I do agree with that. We need to exhaust ALL options out there and give as many players as possible in friendlies a chance. Who knows what gem we may unearth.

[andyD]

I agree that I can't see the logic behind a lot of the Canada selections. Mulgrew and Cairney made sense. Good for Burke to get another game, even if it he wasn't at his best.

Aside from that..
Anya at right back, when Tierney's going to play there in the next game and Anya will be bought on at left wing.
Berra.. very much a known quantity. Either play Martin so he and Mulgrew can build an understanding or put in a younger player.
Wallace.. if ever there was a performance to end an international career, that was it.
Fletcher.. known quantity and this was probably one of his worst games. Bridcutt or McDonald would have made more sense.
Snodgrass.. Given he seems to be low on stamina (faded significantly in the 2nd half of both games) why not rest him.
Naismith.. cap number 44 for him.. not sure what we learned.
Martin.. given his physicality it would have made more sense to play him with someone along side, like Griffiths or Rhodes. See if that combination would be effective and usable in games like Malta and Lithuania.

It was very much a game of asking the same players to do the same things we've asked them to do before.

All that said.. Given that we secured the three vital points from the must-win qualifier, and played well while doing it.. I'm not really that fussed about the non-optimal use of a friendly before hand.

[fraz65]

On 3/28/2017 at 10:24 PM, Bino's said:

we had a glorious failure last time round

 

winning v Poland and going to the play off

 

discover Ireland leading v Germany and then last minute goal for Poland to cap it off

I was at the Poland match- incidentally the only game i've been to in around three years as I live in Australia.

It didn't feel that glorious but I understand your point.

[bonny78]

There is no way we cud win a 2 legged playoff against a 2nd placed team i.e. a GOOD team. 

[Reevesy]

16 minutes ago, bonny78 said:

There is no way we cud win a 2 legged playoff against a 2nd placed team i.e. a GOOD team. 

We couldn't beat,as an example, Northern Ireland over 2 legs? I find that hard to believe

[ProudScot]

14 minutes ago, Reevesy said:

We couldn't beat,as an example, Northern Ireland over 2 legs? I find that hard to believe

If we play like we did against Slovenia then yes we probably would.

If we play like we did for most of the matches over the last 2 and a half years then no we robably wouldn't. In addition to the fact that we would never make it to a play off.

[Reevesy]

Just now, ProudScot said:

If we play like we did against Slovenia then yes we probably would.

If we play like we did for most of the matches over the last 2 and a half years then no we robably wouldn't. In addition to the fact that we would never make it to a play off.

Well in the last 2 and a half years we have actually beaten Northern Ireland, keeping a clean sheet in the process.

[ProudScot]

2 minutes ago, Reevesy said:

Well in the last 2 and a half years we have actually beaten Northern Ireland, keeping a clean sheet in the process.

Wow we are actually really good, sorry my mistake.

We also have a good manager. Let's extend his contract.