Rossy Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 1 minute ago, Squirrelhumper said: What benefit would not qualifying do? You're trying to use an argument that I'm not trying to make. I'm only pointing out facts, not offering solutions that aren't in my power. I don't want Scottish teams not to qualify for Europe. I want them to get there, do well, and bring through top class footballers that help the international side be succesful. But that's not happening at all, and the reasoning that 'Scottish players playing in the Champions League benefits Scottish football', simply doesn't hold water in the slightest.....and yet people continue to make it, in the face of reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamntg Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 12 minutes ago, Squirrelhumper said: What benefit would not qualifying do? Make the league more competitive? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbcmfc Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 47 minutes ago, adamntg said: Make the league more competitive? I'm going to throw out a slightly bizarre argument... When Celtic weren't in the Champions league, they bought the best players from Inverness, Dundee United (3 times) and Hibs. With the champions league money, they're less likely to be shopping in that market.... So in a round about way, it may stop them weakening other sides to strengthen their bench. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanderark14 Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 Since Celtic and rangerrs regularly qualified for the CL, the Scottish national team has been nothing short of an embarrassment so how anyone can say scottish players playing at that level benefits Scottish fitba is beyond me. It's been no benefit to anyone other than the two clubs in question. strachan peddles this line on a regular basis about the players playing at the highest possible level benefits the game. He's clueless because there's no evidence of this at all. I hate the fact a dons legend is such a ##### Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tartan_Don Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 2 hours ago, Squirrelhumper said: I can't remember either Celtic or Rangers getting pumped in 90% of games? Care to provide info on when this was? No ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Langtonian Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 Sure there,ll be a number of club chairmen happy Celtic qualified as the other clubs in the premier benefit by around £200,000 out of it King will be laughing up his sleeve,200 k less he has to pump into Rangers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellyman Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 Let me try to answer one of the questions as put by one of our country cousins. "How does Celtic playing in Europe benefit the national team" ? For Example - Scotland v Spain at Hampden - Broony - Hello Mr Iniesta and how are you, the weather in the Nou camp was very good last month ? Iniesta - Hello Mr Broony nice to see you again, will you be kicking me tonight ? The morale of the above is this, that you get to know your opponent and he gets to know you, in turn you gain a certain respect for each other and that helps at International level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamntg Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 1 hour ago, sbcmfc said: I'm going to throw out a slightly bizarre argument... When Celtic weren't in the Champions league, they bought the best players from Inverness, Dundee United (3 times) and Hibs. With the champions league money, they're less likely to be shopping in that market.... So in a round about way, it may stop them weakening other sides to strengthen their bench. You're right - them having an extra £22 million will make it easier for somebody outside the Old Firm to win the league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 Are folk honestly arguing that playing in the european cup / chumps league does not benefit the development of players? So what they would be better players if they never had this experience? That would seem a bizarre argument if the case. Some of those players are Scottish and some play for Scotland so yes it benefits the players and thus the team. What it does not do is transform average ability players into world class players. It is not a magic wand FFS. As for the benefit of the Scottish game it is arguable. It raises the profile of Scottish football, injects more cash into the league to attract better talent and possibly make it more interesting and marketable blah blah. On the down side it reduces the competitiveness by concentrating more cash in the old firm. But that two horse race had bolted anyway long ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbcmfc Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 7 minutes ago, adamntg said: You're right - them having an extra £22 million will make it easier for somebody outside the Old Firm to win the league. No, but they're going to win the league anyway, at least they're not weakening the opposition in the process. Wasn't a completely serious point, but think there's something in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlueGaz Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 2 hours ago, Squirrelhumper said: What benefit would not qualifying do? His team would be £22m closer in their finances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrelhumper Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 45 minutes ago, Tartan_Don said: No ?? That'll be made up then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrelhumper Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 27 minutes ago, thplinth said: Are folk honestly arguing that playing in the european cup / chumps league does not benefit the development of players? So what they would be better players if they never had this experience? That would seem a bizarre argument if the case. Some of those players are Scottish and some play for Scotland so yes it benefits the players and thus the team. What it does not do is transform average ability players into world class players. It is not a magic wand FFS. As for the benefit of the Scottish game it is arguable. It raises the profile of Scottish football, injects more cash into the league to attract better talent and possibly make it more interesting and marketable blah blah. On the down side it reduces the competitiveness by concentrating more cash in the old firm. But that two horse race had bolted anyway long ago. Totally agree, especially the last bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dipped flake Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 bit of a catch 22 situation with celtic and the cl. Pros - It helps Scotland's coefficient, It adds media coverage of our game which should, if we didn't have total numpties running our game, increase broadcasting money to Scottish football. A few Scottish players get to play high-class European teams. Other Premiership teams get £200k. It puts pressure on Dave King to open his imaginary wallet Cons - It means celtic will win the league even more convincingly. Celtic will buy any player that plays well against them and not play them (no change there). Chris Sutton will be even more of a **** than he already is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanderark14 Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 7 minutes ago, dipped flake said: bit of a catch 22 situation with celtic and the cl. Pros - It helps Scotland's coefficient, It adds media coverage for Celtic which should, if we didn't have total numpties running our game, increase broadcasting money to Scottish football. A few Scottish players get to play high-class European teams. Other Premiership teams get £200k, great, thats the gap only £19,800,000 now. It puts pressure on Dave King to open his imaginary wallet Cons - It means celtic will win the league even more convincingly. Celtic will buy any player that plays well against them and not play them (no change there). Chris Sutton will be even more of a **** than he already is fixed it for you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbcmfc Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 19 minutes ago, dipped flake said: Celtic will buy any player that plays well against them and not play them (no change there). I was thinking that it might go the other way. Celtic aren't quite going to be shopping at Waitrose, but might be moving from Lidl to Morrisons with the CL money. ie they will be looking outside Scotland for players, rather than hoovering up all the best players in Scotland to sit on the bench. If they buy the best of the Scottish players and Give them experience at this level, that's a good thing for the national team, but we'll see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toepoke Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 2 hours ago, vanderark14 said: Since Celtic and rangerrs regularly qualified for the CL, the Scottish national team has been nothing short of an embarrassment so how anyone can say scottish players playing at that level benefits Scottish fitba is beyond me. I would say since Celtic and Rangers stopped qualifying for the Champions League regularly the Scotland team has got even worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macy37 Posted August 24, 2016 Author Share Posted August 24, 2016 2 hours ago, Langtonian said: Sure there,ll be a number of club chairmen happy Celtic qualified as the other clubs in the premier benefit by around £200,000 out of it King will be laughing up his sleeve,200 k less he has to pump into Rangers No he won't. They don't get a penny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rossy Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 59 minutes ago, sbcmfc said: If they buy the best of the Scottish players and Give them experience at this level, that's a good thing for the national team, No. One of Scottish football's great urban myths. There's no evidence at all to suggest that over the last 20 years, Scottish players playing in the Champions League have somehow become better, skilled, accomplished international players. I've no idea why people keep on repeating this lie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marky Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 5 hours ago, Rossy said: I don't think you saw the part about going on to 'better things with top European clubs, and become international stars'. In fairness Rossy Alan Hutton is probably the closest (and only player) to fitting your description. He's played pretty consistently in the EPL and for years was comfortably one of our best players. Whether the relative success of his career is down to having been exposed to Champions League football with Rangers is another question altogether. 13 hours ago, Squirrelhumper said: I want to see as many Scottish players playing elite European football as possible. Likes of Griffiths, Tierney, Forrest, Gordon, McGregor, Henderson will be playing champions league football. Whether celtic get £22m is immaterial IMO. They'll win the league at a canter regardless. SH, I think the point being made (and what history would suggest) is that Celtic scooping large dollops of CL cash is likely to result in less Scottish players being exposed to football at the top level, because as soon as the cash starts rolling in, Scottish players will disappear off Celtic's shopping list like snow aff a dyke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbcmfc Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 2 minutes ago, Rossy said: No. One of Scottish football's great urban myths. There's no evidence at all to suggest that over the last 20 years, Scottish players playing in the Champions League have somehow become better, skilled, accomplished international players. I've no idea why people keep on repeating this lie. There's no evidence it hasn't improved them either. Not specifically the Champions league, that's just a platform to play at a higher level. Kieran Tierney is going to be better tested coming up against Bale and Ronaldo or Suarez and Neymar than Marvin Johnson and Lionel Ainsworth. It hasn't improved the results of the national team, but that's a different point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rossy Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 Just now, sbcmfc said: There's no evidence it hasn't improved them either. Not specifically the Champions league, that's just a platform to play at a higher level. Kieran Tierney is going to be better tested coming up against Bale and Ronaldo or Suarez and Neymar than Marvin Johnson and Lionel Ainsworth. It hasn't improved the results of the national team, but that's a different point. You (and others) have said that 'it's a good thing for the national team'. There's no evidence at all that this is the case. If anything, we've regressed considerably ability-wise over the last 20 years. Qualification wise, Scotland were a better team with Brian Irvine playing for them than we have been with all these Old Firm superkids who supposedly become better players because of the Champions League. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellyman Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 9 minutes ago, Rossy said: You (and others) have said that 'it's a good thing for the national team'. There's no evidence at all that this is the case. If anything, we've regressed considerably ability-wise over the last 20 years. Qualification wise, Scotland were a better team with Brian Irvine playing for them than we have been with all these Old Firm superkids who supposedly become better players because of the Champions League. Scotland were a better team with Dalglish & Souness playing in it but thats in the past. Looking at now and to the future it is better to have the young guys playing against high calibre players in Europe. You play against or with better players you will become an improved player , not saying it will improve the national team but it certainly helps to compete when they do come up against international players. I think your problem is that it is Celtic in Europe and not your mob ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalgety Bay TA Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 1 hour ago, dipped flake said: Cons - It means celtic will win the league even more convincingly. Celtic will buy any player that plays well against them and not play them (no change there). Chris Sutton will be even more of a **** than he already is See this bolded part. Its just p!sh! We have bought 7 players from other Scottish clubs in the last 9 seasons, including this one. One of those was Paul Slane. We have hit Dundee Utd hardest, taking Armstrong, GMS and Ciftci although considering the deal for the last one, I think we know who benefited most out that deal. We have taken Stokes and Scott Allan from Hibs but Allan was in the Championship at the time and not exactly someone who could "play well against them". We also loaned Hibs Henderson as part of that deal I believe. The other one is Ryan Christie who is now starting to get the odd appearance. So thats it, 7 players over 9 seasons, unless we go mad and plunder the SPL in the next week. Ohh and you could add Charlie Mulgrew in there as another but I believe that was freedom of contract? Is that really such a crime that so many make out it to be? 8 players at most over 9 seasons, less than 1 a season. FTR, Hearts have taken 25 players from other Scottish clubs in the same period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rossy Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 9 minutes ago, wellyman said: Scotland were a better team with Dalglish & Souness playing in it but thats in the past. Looking at now and to the future it is better to have the young guys playing against high calibre players in Europe. You play against or with better players you will become an improved player , not saying it will improve the national team but it certainly helps to compete when they do come up against international players. Again. There is absolutely no evidence at all that this is the case. Celtic (or Rangers) being in the CL...or CL qualifiers and Europa League....every season for the last 20 has not produced a better standard of Scottish player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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