wwta2007.com Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 There are very positive messages emanating from LFI people that Scots trades unionists are actively trying to bring about a pro-indy "labour" party asap in order that they can take part in a Yes-type alliance for Holyrood 2016. Pat Rafferty from Unite is believed to be one of the principal players in this caucus which focuses on Scots trade unionists funding going direct to a real pro-indy Scots "labour" party. Clearly, this would be braw in addition to those real scunnered lab/socialist activists (who are left) putting socialism first, as many Scots would understand it. If this scenario takes place how could a Northern Brit Labour party recover from such damaging loss of revenues and workers ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UPROAR Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 Id like to see the current SLAB reorganise itself as a independent labour party in Scotland. Their forced focus on Holyrood plus the increased powers would take them eventually to support indy with a wee detour through full devo.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotlad Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 I would hazard a guess that most 'Labour people' in Scotland have largely abandoned the party anyway. However, if their affiliated trade unions also abandoned them they really would be up shit creek financially. I think the way forward for them has to be to formally break away from the UK Labour party, a la the Scottish Greens. Whether they should then back independence for Scotland is another matter. As an aside, but on a related topic, apparently James Connolly's Scottish Labour Party membership card is up for auction: http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/fine-art-antiques/james-connolly-s-membership-card-for-the-scottish-labour-party-to-be-auctioned-1.2205142#.VU80CGIFC3U.twitter I suspect Connolly, a Marxist, would have taken a dim view of his card being put up for auction! Hopefully it goes to a good home. Incidentally, one of the founders of the Scottish Labour Party, Robert Bontine Cunningham Grahame, went on to found the SNP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 From watching the news British Labour seem almost guaranteed to move further right than under Miliband. A Scottish Labour Party is essential I think, can't see it happening though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northernscum Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 Over the last couple of days since the capitulation of Labour (especially in Scotland) there has been a fair amount of chat on various political programmes voicing this very idea. UK Labour have a massive dilemma on their hands in the coming parliament. They must realise that the political climate in Scotland is miles from that in the majority of England where they are trying to gain a foothold, therefore it is impossible for them to have two completely different campaigns running simultaneously. Last weeks results will have their party strategists earning their corn for the next few years! I think an alternative Scottish union based Labour movement would be welcomed in Scotland, but only if there was absolutely no links of any kind to the shambles that is UK Labour. Interesting times ahead...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 I too have watched a few political programmes about this subject. I think it was Ken Livingstone who said the Labour party has to re-organise itself now and 'regionalize' (I think his term was). He recognizes that Scottish Labour are now frowned upon as they don't operate in the best of Scottish voters interests and likewise for Labour across the UK. He says what is relevant and important in one part of the UK is not necessarily so in other parts. He even touted having a North England branch etc. However, I don't think they should be railroaded into being a pro-Independence if that is not what their party wants - it is a democracy you know. If a breakaway Scottish Labour party broke from English Labour they'd obviously need to work out what their beliefs and stance was on independence and voters would need to accept and understand that. A Labour party under Livingstone's regionalization I believe would still pander to the Westminster big brother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 I think the only way back for Labour in Scotland is for the grass roots organisers to take back control of the party and get back to fighting for ordinary folk. They need to ditch everything associated with New Labour which almost as toxic as Toryism. They need to break away from London Labour who are trying to represent a very different section of society. If they are serious about winning back the support that they have taken for granted for decades they need to put FFA/Devomax (or whatever they want to call it) as one of their main goals. If we are to believe the opinion polls that is what most folk in Scotland want. Ironically, if they were to do that they may also reinvigorate the Scottish Tories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bzzzz Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 The labour party in Scotland is dead and buried, no-one joins the labour party now because of its traditional values... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 I think the only way back for Labour in Scotland is for the grass roots organisers to take back control of the party and get back to fighting for ordinary folk. They need to ditch everything associated with New Labour which almost as toxic as Toryism. They need to break away from London Labour who are trying to represent a very different section of society. If they are serious about winning back the support that they have taken for granted for decades they need to put FFA/Devomax (or whatever they want to call it) as one of their main goals. If we are to believe the opinion polls that is what most folk in Scotland want. Ironically, if they were to do that they may also reinvigorate the Scottish Tories. No I don't agree (well not with all of it). True they have to sever their bondage ropes with Westminster-based Labour but really if that happens it is still up to what that party believes is just (to them) that they fight for. If they still want to keep the union together as it is what they believe in then so be it. Scotland should not be telling political parties what they should or shouldn't believe in. They primarily should focus chiefly on what is happening in Scotland and Scotland alone and work to improve things for the better in Scotland. If they protract that across they'll win more supporters but anti-independent (too severely so) then they'll lose support. It would be up to them to how they want to play it and after that it would be up to the voters if they like what they see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 (edited) I cannot see any way back for the Labour party in Scotland for 2 main reasons 1 - The SNP have taken over Scottish Labour's clothes 2 - For Scottish Labour to get those clothes back they would have to be completely at odds with Labour in the rest of the UK who it would appear will tragically be drifting back to being more centre right. As someone tweeted today - Labour was born in Scotland and it died in Scotland. Whatever the party calls itself now it is not Labour. The only possible way they could make a comeback is if the SNP follow the same mistakes of the Labour party and i cant see that happening with the make up up of the current SNP membership who in essence are mostly ex Labour voters not to mention the Labour party would have to be more left than the SNP - See point 2 Edited May 10, 2015 by Ally Bongo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotlad Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 No I don't agree (well not with all of it). True they have to sever their bondage ropes with Westminster-based Labour but really if that happens it is still up to what that party believes is just (to them) that they fight for. If they still want to keep the union together as it is what they believe in then so be it. Scotland should not be telling political parties what they should or shouldn't believe in. They primarily should focus chiefly on what is happening in Scotland and Scotland alone and work to improve things for the better in Scotland. If they protract that across they'll win more supporters but anti-independent (too severely so) then they'll lose support. It would be up to them to how they want to play it and after that it would be up to the voters if they like what they see. I guess the simplest way to settle the independence question would be to have a vote on it, like the Scottish Greens did. Hardie's Scottish Labour Party backed home rule for Scotland. However, if this hypothetical party is to truly be a Labour party in the traditional spirit of that organisation then that should be its main focus, not independence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 I guess the simplest way to settle the independence question would be to have a vote on it, like the Scottish Greens did. Hardie's Scottish Labour Party backed home rule for Scotland. However, if this hypothetical party is to truly be a Labour party in the traditional spirit of that organisation then that should be its main focus, not independence. Precisely. A political party is founded on and stands by its own beliefs however much it may rile some or please others. They are what they are. Besides what would the point in them being too similar to the SNP? As I said if they did split from Westminster Labour then it would be like having a blank canvas I suppose and would depend on who or what ideals that it held true to but either way the voters would judge them on their merits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bristolhibby Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 An I Labour would have to decide which side of the Indi debate it was on. I guess it could go on the left wing Unionist ticket. But that's just crazy, considering what Scotland voted last Thursday. Very difficult times ahead for Labour. Meanwhile England is about to come out of the Human Rights Act. FFS! Arguing against human rights. We are through the looking glass now. Just as well this can't be the case in Scotland as it is protected under the Scotland Act. J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northernscum Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 From a purely practical point of view, how would Scottish Labour actually break away from the UK party? What would the actual protocol be? I can't see UK Labour basically throwing away any future seats in Scotland regardless of how hopeless it looks at the moment. So basically there would just have to be a completely new party set up alongside the skeleton of Scottish Labour, Yes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 (edited) No I don't agree (well not with all of it). True they have to sever their bondage ropes with Westminster-based Labour but really if that happens it is still up to what that party believes is just (to them) that they fight for. If they still want to keep the union together as it is what they believe in then so be it. Scotland should not be telling political parties what they should or shouldn't believe in. They primarily should focus chiefly on what is happening in Scotland and Scotland alone and work to improve things for the better in Scotland. If they protract that across they'll win more supporters but anti-independent (too severely so) then they'll lose support. It would be up to them to how they want to play it and after that it would be up to the voters if they like what they see. The Labour party founded in Scotland by Keir Hardie had very, very different values to those of the Labour party today. Many Labour supporters in Scotland want them to get back to those fundamental values. Keir Hardie's Labour party were in favour of Home Rule. Edited May 11, 2015 by Orraloon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggy Jim Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Scotland should not be telling political parties what they should or shouldn't believe in. I agree, but the UK Labour Party has changed it's beliefs to make it electable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wwta2007.com Posted May 11, 2015 Author Share Posted May 11, 2015 The drive behind a potential ILP is that many trades unionists and some labour activists are pro-independence, clearly. Certainly there are tens of thousands of traditional labour voters who appear to have voted for independence on three occasions now; 2011, 2014 & 2015. They know SLAB is firmly Brit in political direction and will continue to remain a Brit branch office. This dichotomy is leading them to merely one conclusion; they must start their own party. Is the word "labour" toxic or worth maintaining within the name of a new political party ? They've got to decide. One thing is for sure for is that many trades unionists, labour activists and "labour" voters don't want to/can't join the SNP. IMHO a Scots ILP would be very, very healthy for Scots democracy and very welcome. A socialist conscience for the SNP ? Sounds kinda familiar...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teecee- Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 What has caused the Scottish electorate to move to the Left? Blair and his policies were backed on many occasions here at General Elections. Left Wing tendency will certainly be the SNP mantra now Sturgeon has replaced Salmond. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 What has caused the Scottish electorate to move to the Left? I don't think it has. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teecee- Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Well they did back New Labour previously which was more to the Right than the current Labour party. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Well they did back New Labour previously which was more to the Right than the current Labour party. I think Labour and Lib Dems have moved to the right to try to get Tory votes down south. I think it has just taken a lot of the electorate a wee while to realise this, and also to realise that there just might be an alternative. Folk in the Labour party keep saying that the voters have deserted them but the reality is that the Labour party has deserted the voters who used to vote for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teecee- Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 It has taken a while for the "penny to drop" in Scotland but that was probably down to a deep sense of loyalty towards Labour. Add in Iraq war, sharing a stage with the Tories and incompetent Labour MSPs. They have converted now and this will be what gets us Independence when added to core SNP voters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 What has caused the Scottish electorate to move to the Left? Blair and his policies were backed on many occasions here at General Elections. Left Wing tendency will certainly be the SNP mantra now Sturgeon has replaced Salmond. Probably the Scottish electorate were not as politically aware Have to remember you could put a monkey with a red rosette up for Labour & it would get elected in Scotland at that time Probably never realised how centre right new Labour was plus the alternative was Tory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kumnio Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Folk in the Labour party keep saying that the voters have deserted them but the reality is that the Labour party has deserted the voters who used to vote for them. Absolutely. Someone in the Labour party said that the voters had let them down, think it was after the Holyrood 2011 election, with no hint of irony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UPROAR Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 It has taken a while for the "penny to drop" in Scotland but that was probably down to a deep sense of loyalty towards Labour. Add in Iraq war, sharing a stage with the Tories and incompetent Labour MSPs. They have converted now and this will be what gets us Independence when added to core SNP voters. They all took a step right.... we stayed roughly where we were. Apart from geopolitics you have to remember only the U.S. and the UK value MBAs highly, Miliband was at Harvard, the main parties are stuffed full of Republican and Democrat strategists and analysts. Our politics, media and our world view is slowly converging with the U.S. Scotland's is not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.