Harvey Barnes

[Toepoke]

1 hour ago, Third Lanark said:

This reminds me of the old days when some fans wanted an all-tartan team of home-based Scots, as they thought the 'Anglos' were less committed. No one would argue for that now; instead we have the dichotomy between 'real' Scots and 'eligibles'. Doubt if other nations can be bothered with such niceties; they just want the best team.

In the early days, only Scottish based players were eligible.

Eg. John Campbell, regarded in his prime as the greatest goalscorer in the game was never capped due to him playing for Sunderland in England...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Campbell_(footballer,_born_1869)

 

[breeks_mctavish]

This leaves a bit if a bad taste for me. Glory hunter taking advantage of lax rules. Once you play for one country at full international level, you’ve already chosen.

[Big Ramy 1314]

11 minutes ago, breeks_mctavish said:

This leaves a bit if a bad taste for me. Glory hunter taking advantage of lax rules. Once you play for one country at full international level, you’ve already chosen.

That is spot on. They should implement that rule. Once you play for a country once, you cannot change, you are committed to that country whether you play or not.. End of !!! Fuck these glory hunting pricks.... Alba Gu Brath 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿.   

Example. I am eligible to play for Scotland, Northern Ireland, and Canada. I would only ever represent Scotland. Even if Canada and Ireland made a World Cup final, and I was asked to join, I would never do it. I am Scottish and fuckin proud. I bleed neeps and tatties, play the great Highland Bagpipe, worship Kevin Bridges, and wear ma kilt with pride. I only bleed for one nation, and that nation is Scotland !!!!! I should have ma own fuckin song !!!!! 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿💪💪💪♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️

[Scots_Wha_Hae]

6 minutes ago, Big Ramy 1314 said:

That is spot on. They should implement that rule. Once you play for a country once, you cannot change, you are committed to that country whether you play or not.. End of !!! Fuck these glory hunting pricks.... Alba Gu Brath 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿.   

Example. I am eligible to play for Scotland, Northern Ireland, and Canada. I would only ever represent Scotland. Even if Canada and Ireland made a World Cup final, and I was asked to join, I would never do it. I am Scottish and fuckin proud. I bleed neeps and tatties, play the great Highland Bagpipe, worship Kevin Bridges, and wear ma kilt with pride. I only bleed for one nation, and that nation is Scotland !!!!! I should have ma own fuckin song !!!!! 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿💪💪💪♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️

That’s you projecting your views into someone else though. The nationality of an individual is complex. If Andy Robertson’s kids (assuming he has any) were to want to play for Scotland some of the posters here would be against it because they would only qualify on parentage, they weren’t born in Scotland. 
 

David Weir and Darren Fletcher were also both Scotland captains and both of them have kids who play for England youth sides. At some point they might decide they want to play for Scotland as it is possible for someone to have allegiances to more than one country. I am sure they are proud of their fathers’ achievements but equally they have their own lives which have largely been in England. Their mothers may or may not be English too. All this adds to a complex decision on who to play for and how they feel. They should be given the opportunity to make that decision themselves and should not have to prove or justify their decision to anyone.

[Third Lanark]

1 hour ago, Scots_Wha_Hae said:

I understand the unease of plenty posters to an extent but for me eligibility is a complex thing. It is perfectly possible for someone to have/feel multiple nationalities perhaps even some more strongly that others. For me it’s really about whether the player will improve on what we have and I think all of those being talked about as potentially wanting to play for us add something to our squad. 

There’s a scenario here where by next year we end up with Barnes, Gordon, Doak, Fraser and to an extent McGinn and Anderson (depending on where each is to play) fighting it out for starting spots. That can never be a bad thing.

The same applies to Livramento, he may or may not get into our squad in any given international window but having him fighting for a place is surely a good thing.

He's behind the following: Hickey, Patterson, Ramsay, Johnston and Ralston.

[Hertsscot]

18 minutes ago, Third Lanark said:

He's behind the following: Hickey, Patterson, Ramsay, Johnston and Ralston.

Not as a footballer he isn't. He's coming back from injury but Newcastle paid £30 million or more for him and I doubt they'd have paid half of that for the last four combined! 

Harvey Barnes leaves a bit of a bad taste à it does look like he's on the rebound from England. However I'm content to leave it up to Stevie Clarke (as if my opinion counted for anything anywa).

On a general point, if you have been capped at full international level you should not be allowed to change. When people are younger fair enough but for me swapping after you've made your full debut is wrong. I don't want to go down the rugby union route.

[Big Ramy 1314]

40 minutes ago, Scots_Wha_Hae said:

That’s you projecting your views into someone else though. The nationality of an individual is complex. If Andy Robertson’s kids (assuming he has any) were to want to play for Scotland some of the posters here would be against it because they would only qualify on parentage, they weren’t born in Scotland. 
 

David Weir and Darren Fletcher were also both Scotland captains and both of them have kids who play for England youth sides. At some point they might decide they want to play for Scotland as it is possible for someone to have allegiances to more than one country. I am sure they are proud of their fathers’ achievements but equally they have their own lives which have largely been in England. Their mothers may or may not be English too. All this adds to a complex decision on who to play for and how they feel. They should be given the opportunity to make that decision themselves and should not have to prove or justify their decision to anyone.

I get what your saying mate, but Barnes is 26 years old. He has been eligible for Scotland since the under 15s. So it took him 11 years to make his mind up???? I don't buy it. Here is a question... if Scotland were bottom of this group instead of top, would Harvey Barnes declare desire to represent Scotland??? We all know the answer.  Respect your opinion though pal....

[ParisInAKilt]

One could argue, Scottish players don’t play for England, friendly or not. 

I mean it is what it is, I don’t Barnes is any less Scottish than Anderson. 

The rules are the rules, Clarke, like every manager before and after him will pick this best available players. 

[Big Ramy 1314]

33 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said:

One could argue, Scottish players don’t play for England, friendly or not. 

I mean it is what it is, I don’t Barnes is any less Scottish than Anderson. 

The rules are the rules, Clarke, like every manager before and after him will pick this best available players. 

If I represented engerland, I would set a new world record for most own goals scored in the history of football. That's even if you drugged me, I was comatose, and you managed to get that shit engerland top over me body... Just saying like. Some folk might call me a bigot against the English. That's false, I just don't like the cnuts, never have, and never wilI. I am 55 years old, I won't change my mind now...🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

[bigfingers]

I know we have benefitted from it but I think they need to change the rules. If you have played for a international team any age group then you are locked to that country. Getting a bit of a joke players in their mid 20s wanting to join a country they had no interest in before. 

[mccaughey85]

9 hours ago, duncan II said:

Can't imagine the current good players who have waited patiently for their chance will be too happy. It risks upsetting the balance of what we've achieved with this squad. Everyone knows, and is happy with, the fact that you need to work your way into the squad and then hang about until earning your chance in the team. Parachuting in a "superstar " risks disharmony.

Also, from the other point of view, is Harvey Barnes willing to hang around to work for his place. He might well make our squad but does he realise that he'll have to work at dislodging McTominey or McGinn? Will he hang about over the course of several squads without getting a sniff?

If Harvey barnes is willing to sit on the bench for a while and earn his spot in the first team then i have no problem with him coming in. If he turns up expecting to go straight into the first team then its a no from me.

Barnes should really have declared a game or 2 before and he wouldn't have this problem. We have pretty much looked like we are going to qualify since the norway game. If barnes had declared back then or even before the cyprus game he could have been seen as helping us qualify, especially if played well in the remaining games.

It's a bit crappy of him to come in now and i think clarke will be forced to make him wait on the bench so that he doesnt disrupt the harmony and upset the guys who have dedicated themselves to us since the start.

Saying that hes a good player. He has a better goal scoring record from the wing in the epl than any of our strikers have since steven fletcher. 

We could probably just stick him upfront as we dont really play with wingers and mcginn and mctominay are guarenteed starters right now.

[mccaughey85]

8 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Why is he transferring over to us? If he is.

Will he be made aware he won't just walk into the team and has to be prepared to wait?

Those are the questions I'd want answered. Who would he be an upgrade on given we have established midfielders all doing a damned good job at international level with Serie A player waiting patiently in the wings. 

Considering he scores more than any of our current strikers then upfront might be an option.

[Caledonian Craig]

3 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

Considering he scores more than any of our current strikers then upfront might be an option.

No he doesn't really. He has played around 240 games with around 60 goals so around a goal every four games. Dykes has played 31 times for us with 9 goals so a goal around every three and a half games.

[mccaughey85]

12 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

No he doesn't really. He has played around 240 games with around 60 goals so around a goal every four games. Dykes has played 31 times for us with 9 goals so a goal around every three and a half games.

Eh? Why are you comparing dykes international record with barnes at club level. Barnes has never played international football for us. 

Barnes has scored more goals in the last three seasons in a top league than any striker we have.

He's even got a better record in the last three seasons than dykes despite dykes playing spl and english championship. 

Infact I dont think dykes has an overall better strike rate in his whole career despite playing lower league football for a large part of it.

Also international football is arguably easier to score in than the epl or a top european league. Theres alot of minnows in international football who are easy to score against.

Edited September 10, 2023 by mccaughey85

[Caledonian Craig]

2 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

Eh? Why are you comparing dykes international record with barnes at club level. Barnes has never played international football for us. 

Barnes has scored more goals in the last three seasons in a top league than any striker we have.

He's even got a better record in the last three seasons than dykes despite dykes playing spl and english championship. 

Infact I dont think dykes has an overall better strike rate in his whole career despite playing lower league football for a large part of it.

Point taken. However, in my eyes Dykes has proven himself at international level whilst Barnes has not. Barnes could not offer Dykes lay offs and holding the ball up either in my opinion. I just do not see Barnes operating as a striker at all.

[Hertsscot]

12 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Point taken. However, in my eyes Dykes has proven himself at international level whilst Barnes has not. Barnes could not offer Dykes lay offs and holding the ball up either in my opinion. I just do not see Barnes operating as a striker at all.

And some players, for whatever reason, are just better on the international stage. David Healy is an obvious example but there are others.

[mccaughey85]

3 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Point taken. However, in my eyes Dykes has proven himself at international level whilst Barnes has not. Barnes could not offer Dykes lay offs and holding the ball up either in my opinion. I just do not see Barnes operating as a striker at all.

He scored 13 in 34 epl games last season for a team that got relegated. Most strikers would be happy with a record like that for a relegated team. 

He obviously knows how to score and if dykes or adams gets injured then i would say barnes would be an option for the upfront role given his ability to score goals. Who else is there, both nisbet and shankland have never played high at high level. Stewart might not be the same after his injury and has never played a high level either.

Even if barnes wasnt played as a striker hes probably a better player than armstrong and christie. So if either mctominay or mcginn gets injured then barnes would probably be straight into the side as an attacking midfielder.

I aint really happy with him declaring right now as its obvious he is just doing it to play at a major tournament but let's not pretend the guy doesn't improve our squad. Hes a good player who scores a fair bit at epl level. Thats something we rarely have. Adams is the only one who actually does this and even hes not massively prolific.

[mccaughey85]

Just now, Hertsscot said:

And some players, for whatever reason, are just better on the international stage. David Healy is an obvious example but there are others.

Am a big fan of dykes, especially in a scotland shirt but his goalscoring record at club level is pretty average considering the level hes played at.

[Bobby Russell's Lovechild]

https://foxesofleicester.com/2023/05/31/leicester-city-harvey-barnes-top-6/

Interesting read

[Bobby Russell's Lovechild]

Quote from Harvey's dad 

[Caledonian Craig]

16 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

 

I aint really happy with him declaring right now as its obvious he is just doing it to play at a major tournament but let's not pretend the guy doesn't improve our squad. Hes a good player who scores a fair bit at epl level. Thats something we rarely have. Adams is the only one who actually does this and even hes not massively prolific.

We are on a run of eleven successive wins in qualifying matches so obviously what we have just now is working just fine. There is a great feeling amongst the players in the squad which is greatly risked by bringing in a player which the fans can see its only to play at a major tournament so players will sense that too and risks upsetting the atmosphere and feel within the squad which is perfect at the moment. So not worth the risk for a player unproven at international level.

 

[mccaughey85]

4 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

We are on a run of eleven successive wins in qualifying matches so obviously what we have just now is working just fine. There is a great feeling amongst the players in the squad which is greatly risked by bringing in a player which the fans can see its only to play at a major tournament so players will sense that too and risks upsetting the atmosphere and feel within the squad which is perfect at the moment. So not worth the risk for a player unproven at international level.

 

How can barnes be unproven at international level when he hasn't had a chance yet? 

Also international football isnt the highest standard alot of the time.

The epl is a better standard than international football. I would say at least half the sides we play in international wouldnt last a season or 2 in the epl. Teams like georgia, Albania, Israel, cyprus are english championship level or worse. 

[Caledonian Craig]

Just now, mccaughey85 said:

How can barnes be unproven at international level when he hasn't had a chance yet? 

Also international football isnt the highest standard alot of the time.

The epl is a better standard than international football. I would say at least half the sides we play in international wouldnt last a season or 2 in the epl. Teams like georgia, Albania, Israel, cyprus are english championship level or worse. 

I explained my thoughts in my last post with regards of upsetting squad equilibrium which is perfect just now. I feel comfortable and confident in saying Barnes needs us (a tick in his bucket list of playing a major international tournament) more than we need him.

[mccaughey85]

4 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

I explained my thoughts in my last post with regards of upsetting squad equilibrium which is perfect just now. I feel comfortable and confident in saying Barnes needs us (a tick in his bucket list of playing a major international tournament) more than we need him.

Yeh thats fair enough. I aint really that bothered about him declaring or not I am just saying that hes a good player who would improve our squad in terms of quality and standard of player and thats what clarke will have to consider.

If barnes is willing to wait on the bench for a while would you be happy with him declaring for us or do you not want him at all?

[Caledonian Craig]

1 minute ago, mccaughey85 said:

Yeh thats fair enough. I aint really that bothered about him declaring or not I am just saying that hes a good player who would improve our squad in terms of quality and standard of player and thats what clarke will have to consider.

If barnes is willing to wait on the bench for a while would you be happy with him declaring for us or do you not want him at all?

It doesn't matter what myself or any fan wants to be honest as it is up to Clarke and Barnes. Personally, no I wouldn't want him in the squad as we are doing excellently just now with a brilliant feeling within the squad. Plus I do not like what I have read with his dad saying he is English through and through and Malky Mackay stating tBarnes had been asked years ago multiple times and said no. To me that says he says yes now because he sees no prospect of England picking him and sees us as a route to play  in a major international tournament nothing else.