Indyref 2 (2)

[phart]

12 minutes ago, PapofGlencoe said:

Sorry I dont agree and dont get what you mean.  The mechanism and mandates are different things in my eyes.

A mandate is the authority given by the electing franchise.

The mechanism is how you go about taking a mandate forward.

You could have a mechanism but no mandate.  Or a mandate but no mechanism.

 

mandate meaning legal authority to have a referendum.

The main point is without a section 30 there would be no referendum. A vote in the Scottish parliament , majority of seats don't give that.

[PapofGlencoe]

Just now, phart said:

mandate meaning legal authority to have a referendum.

The main point is without a section 30 there would be no referendum. A vote in the Scottish parliament , majority of seats don't give that.

I think we're describing different things.

There will be no section 30 without a mandate. 

 

 

[phart]

10 minutes ago, PapofGlencoe said:

I think we're describing different things.

There will be no section 30 without a mandate. 

 

 

Section 30 is at the whim of whoever is primeminister.

[PapofGlencoe]

1 minute ago, phart said:

Section 30 is at the whim of whoever is primeminister.

Don't disagree although whim is a strong word depending on the extent of the mandate given by the people of Scotland.

 

[scotlad]

49 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

Looking pretty grim on the face of it

And then you have shite like this:

I know it's silly season at the moment - and heaven knows, I'm not the most conscientious of workers myself - but I'd like to think if I was privileged enough to be elected to Holyrood I'd find something more useful to do than dance about like a cretin with a pair of daft shoelaces on. Or if I did I'd make sure no one was there filming me!

Some of these eejits are so far removed from reality it's almost frightening. 🤦‍♂️

 

[scotlad]

55 minutes ago, PapofGlencoe said:

In the grand scheme of things having Kate Forbes would have made no difference.

Well, she's done the job previously with some success and crucially she isn't a complete moron.

Robison was so bad a Health Secretary that despite being one of Sturgeon's pals even she got rid of her.

[Ally Bongo]

Surely now is the time for the Humza led cabal being pressurised to resign

They have spunked hundreds of thousands on the GRA court case and as expected have now lost

What a hill to die on

For fuck sakes go and go now

[scotlad]

1 hour ago, Ally Bongo said:

Surely now is the time for the Humza led cabal being pressurised to resign

They have spunked hundreds of thousands on the GRA court case and as expected have now lost

What a hill to die on

For fuck sakes go and go now

As with the UK government's "Rwanda plan", it's a very niche issue that isn't a priority for the vast majority of the public, or even those who voted for them.

[phart]

Wasn't the issue UK government blocking Scottish legislation. The law being blocked is irrelevant to process of being able to block it.

[Hertsscot]

32 minutes ago, phart said:

Wasn't the issue UK government blocking Scottish legislation. The law being blocked is irrelevant to process of being able to block it.

I was going to post similar as this is how I see it as well. It's not a particular hill that I would choose to die on but the principle is the key thing. As it stands it's a reminder that any legislation passed by Holyrood (and it's worth remembering that it was supported by MSPs from all parties) can be overturned by Westminster, thus making democracy in Scotland meaningless.

[Ally Bongo]

1 hour ago, phart said:

Wasn't the issue UK government blocking Scottish legislation. The law being blocked is irrelevant to process of being able to block it.

 

37 minutes ago, Hertsscot said:

I was going to post similar as this is how I see it as well. It's not a particular hill that I would choose to die on but the principle is the key thing. As it stands it's a reminder that any legislation passed by Holyrood (and it's worth remembering that it was supported by MSPs from all parties) can be overturned by Westminster, thus making democracy in Scotland meaningless.

https://unherd.com/thepost/scotlands-gender-ruling-is-a-victory-for-feminists/

 

[Ally Bongo]

 

Lucy HunterBlackburn

 

@LucyHunterB

 

It puts beyond doubt that the SG, either deliberately or incompetently, spent 5 years avoiding getting to grips with how the GRA and the Equality Act inter-act or talking about that in detail with the UK govt. Despite being told repeatedly all that time it was a central issue

[hampden_loon2878]

19 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

 

Lucy HunterBlackburn

 

@LucyHunterB

 

It puts beyond doubt that the SG, either deliberately or incompetently, spent 5 years avoiding getting to grips with how the GRA and the Equality Act inter-act or talking about that in detail with the UK govt. Despite being told repeatedly all that time it was a central issue

Said it before and I will say it again, the snp have been intentionally destroyed from within 

[hampden_loon2878]

20 hours ago, PapofGlencoe said:

In the grand scheme of things having Kate Forbes would have made no difference.

Feel the pulse of the people, the SNP are the unpopular kid at school now, like Labour were years ago.  I dont hear many standing up for them. No amount of moving the deck chairs between now and the next election is going to change that (unless something incredible happens).  Some people swing with momentum and the momentum turned against the SNP when Sturgeon resigned and got arrested. 

She would have made all the difference, I could have bet my house on that. Not saying we would win a majority ect however she would have made a solid platform to build on that was bang in the middle appealing to all voters 

[phart]

3 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

 

https://unherd.com/thepost/scotlands-gender-ruling-is-a-victory-for-feminists/

 

That isn't what we are saying that doesn't address the principle at all as presented in our posts.

 

It just shows that UK government are legally entitled to reach into Scottish politics and push the reset button and folk are happy for them to do so.

 

Edited December 8, 2023 by phart

[phart]

Got to love the Irony as well

[aaid]

6 minutes ago, phart said:

That isn't what we are saying that doesn't address the principle at all as presented in our posts.

 

It just shows that UK government are legally entitled to reach into Scottish politics and push the reset button and folk are happy for them to do so.

 

But surely thats a good thing as long as it’s only used to overturn things that I don’t agree with.   I mean why bother with democracy when WM obviously know better. 

[Ally Bongo]

1 hour ago, aaid said:

But surely thats a good thing as long as it’s only used to overturn things that I don’t agree with.   I mean why bother with democracy when WM obviously know better. 

The point is that the SG were advised they would come into conflict with Westminster and the devolution settlement and went ahead anyway - twice 

[Hertsscot]

4 hours ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

She would have made all the difference, I could have bet my house on that. Not saying we would win a majority ect however she would have made a solid platform to build on that was bang in the middle appealing to all voters 

It was certainly my experience that Forbes was more likely to bring onboard those who were currently 'no' or 'undecided'. 

[Ally Bongo]

5 minutes ago, Hertsscot said:

It was certainly my experience that Forbes was more likely to bring onboard those who were currently 'no' or 'undecided'. 

But would lose the Trans woo woo & Green brigade

And that's why the heads of the SNP went all in on promoting a dumpling that would be an easy target

[Hertsscot]

8 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

But would lose the Trans woo woo & Green brigade

And that's why the heads of the SNP went all in on promoting a dumpling that would be an easy target

I'll happily agree to the first bit. I was at an SNP meeting and one member who fitted that description absolutely tore into Forbes making her sound like the devil incarnate. To be honest if those people left I'd shed no tears. 

[scotlad]

18 hours ago, Hertsscot said:

I was going to post similar as this is how I see it as well. It's not a particular hill that I would choose to die on but the principle is the key thing. As it stands it's a reminder that any legislation passed by Holyrood (and it's worth remembering that it was supported by MSPs from all parties) can be overturned by Westminster, thus making democracy in Scotland meaningless.

Absolutely; but the piece of legislation they chose as their proxy was one that is either unpopular or, at best, unimportant to the majority of the population. 

To those opposed to the GRA, many of whom are of the pro-independence persuasion going by what I've seen on social media, it makes the UK government look like the good guys; the adults stepping in and removing the unruly child's toy. It has a whiff of the Empire-era propaganda of the British being "civilisers", interfering with the lives of these backward people for their own good.

Personally, I share the view of Jo Cherry, which is essentially that it's a shite piece of legislation but we should be able to sort it out ourselves.

If I was an SNP FM though I would "go to war" over something that carried more public support than the GRA; that's a better way to highlight the democratic deficit. Making the UK look good is the last thing you should be doing if you're leading a pro-independence Scottish government.

 

[TDYER63]

37 minutes ago, scotlad said:

Absolutely; but the piece of legislation they chose as their proxy was one that is either unpopular or, at best, unimportant to the majority of the population. 

To those opposed to the GRA, many of whom are of the pro-independence persuasion going by what I've seen on social media, it makes the UK government look like the good guys; the adults stepping in and removing the unruly child's toy. It has a whiff of the Empire-era propaganda of the British being "civilisers", interfering with the lives of these backward people for their own good.

Personally, I share the view of Jo Cherry, which is essentially that it's a shite piece of legislation but we should be able to sort it out ourselves.

If I was an SNP FM though I would "go to war" over something that carried more public support than the GRA; that's a better way to highlight the democratic deficit. Making the UK look good is the last thing you should be doing if you're leading a pro-independence Scottish government.

 

Agree with all this but tbh I despair as much at the pro independence folk on here who seem more concerned about the SG challenge than the fact Westminster can just slap us down when they feel like it. Let’s see what happens when its a subject that folk do care about and the faux outrage that ensues. 

[PapofGlencoe]

4 hours ago, TDYER63 said:

Agree with all this but tbh I despair as much at the pro independence folk on here who seem more concerned about the SG challenge than the fact Westminster can just slap us down when they feel like it. Let’s see what happens when its a subject that folk do care about and the faux outrage that ensues. 

Agree, unionism couldn't have picked a better wedge issue but those falling for it are as bad.  Whatever the views, it's a slap in the face to our parliament.

It does seem like the trans stuff is not as trendy as it once was.  Is it just me or with more sports authorities coming out with realistic female policies, more acceptance and proliferation of gender neutral toilets and how folk want to dress, we've sort of got to a reasonable position as things stand without the complete self id?  Maybe if the Govt just let it lie, it wouldn't be a bad thing. 

 

[Hertsscot]

16 minutes ago, PapofGlencoe said:

Agree, unionism couldn't have picked a better wedge issue but those falling for it are as bad.  Whatever the views, it's a slap in the face to our parliament.

It does seem like the trans stuff is not as trendy as it once was.  Is it just me or with more sports authorities coming out with realistic female policies, more acceptance and proliferation of gender neutral toilets and how folk want to dress, we've sort of got to a reasonable position as things stand without the complete self id?  Maybe if the Govt just let it lie, it wouldn't be a bad thing. 

 

I'd just love it if some journalist interviewed the Tory MSPs (or even Labour or Lib Dem) who voted for it. I'd love to hear why they voted for it. I suspect no one will ask them. Far easier to continue to give the impression that it was just the SNP and Greens voting in favour of this legislation.