Was The Referendum Rigged ?

[Goozay]

MOSCOW, September 19 (RIA Novosti) - Russian observers think that Westminster put significant pressure on Scots during the independencereferendum on September 18.

"According to what our observers at the polling offices tell us, there were more Yes votes during the vote count. Scotland found itself under immense pressure Those on the UK side campaigning for a No vote resorted to every violation imaginable," Georgy Fyodorov, the head of the Association for the protection of electoral rights "Civil control," told RIA Novosti on Friday.

Igor Morozov, a member of the Council of the Federation Committee for Foreign Affairs, said that the results were influenced by "Westminster propaganda."

http://en.ria.ru/world/20140919/193097294/Russian-Observers-Say-Westminter-Put-Pressure-on-Scots-on.html

So the Russians think the referendum wisnae democratic?

The Russians....democratic.

[thplinth]

The part about no one here believing official Russian observers is not believable IMHO.

I stand corrected.

[redstevie007]

I stand corrected.

[thplinth]

Other, more cynical, campaigners, on the other hand, see darker forces at play in the outcome of the referendum. As a guest writer on this page, it is not the place of this author to state definitively that the vote was rigged by MI5, the CIA or any other shadowy operation, but with over eighty-thousand different people from all over Scotland making complaints to the Electoral Commission it must be at least considered that something was fishy.

http://thebutterflyrebellion.org/

80,000 wow.

[saintlyscot]

The Russian observers said all this before they left Scotland but surprise surprise it was barely reported. Issues about size and control of counting environs, boxes not being correctly sealed. It would be dangerous to poo poo this just because of their nationality. I'd imagine it would be easy for electoral officials to verify the character of these observers and investigate further or otherwise. What is the point of having international observers if you don't take account of what they say?

[thplinth]

There are different levels to this...

The most serious rigging was adding Devo Max back on the ballot if You vote No. This alone was enough to invalidate the No vote for me.

Then we have mass media collusion to campaign for No.

Then we have the well planned and orchestrated drip feeding of trumped up scare stories into the media who breathlessly reported it all as if were true and not trumped up crap.

Then we have the pressured interventions of countless figures strong armed by the UK government to speak out against Yes.

You could go on and on...

None of the above even involves physical vote tampering...this one was always going to take some time to surface if happened. And sure enough six days after it appears a LOT of people are complaining that things were not done properly. This one will emerge as a serious problem or it will not but if true it is merely the cherry on a giant rigged cake.

[phart]

It's plain prejudice to allow nationality rather than veracity as the measuring stick for information.

[thplinth]

150,000 through various petitions...some interesting comments reported below.

More than 150,000 people have signed petitions demanding a recount or a new vote of the Scottish independence referendum after videos have emerged allegedly showing evidence of vote fraud.

Nearly 90,000 people had signed a petition on the global platform change.org by Tuesday morning, and a separate petition on 38degrees.org.uk had over 63,000 signatories.

The 38degrees.org.uk petition called for an independent recount of all votes cast in last week’s independence referendum.

This is while the change.org petition demanded a revote of the Scottish referendum, in which “each vote shall be counted by two individuals, one of whom should be an international impartial party without a stake in the vote.”

According to Kirstie Keatings, who created the change.org petition, there has been “countless evidences of fraud” documented during the independence poll.

The petitions were launched after several video clips went viral on the Internet showing examples of potential vote fraud during the Scottish referendum.

Among the clips, one woman appears to place a bundle of “yes” votes onto the “no” pile, while another video footage shows piles of “yes” votes lying on a table designated for “no” votes.

In addition, election observers from a Russian monitoring agency slammed the referendum procedure as fraudulent.

Georgy Fyodorov, head of the Association for the Protection of Electoral Rights, reported that “there were more yes votes during the vote count.” Fyodorov also argued that the “no” campaign “resorted to every violation imaginable.”

Russian polling expert Igor Borisov also stated that the voting procedure was “last century,” adding it was “impossible to see what (was) going on at [polling tables]” and that ballot boxes were “lying around… without any protection.”

On September 18, Scottish voters cast their ballots in the independence referendum, which resulted in a 55-45 percent vote against breaking away from the UK.

[Larky Masher]

I'd argue that taking lessons in democracy from the Russians is pushing it.

[jailender]

Of course Russia has nothing to gain by causing rifts in Britain/UK (delete as appropriate)

[thplinth]

I have to give them Butterfly folks some credit. They nailed it!

[EvilScotsman]

It's plain prejudice to allow nationality rather than veracity as the measuring stick for information.

I'd argue that taking lessons in democracy from the Russians is pushing it.

[Alibi]

I would be very surprised if the UK establishment HADN'T done something to fiddle the vote.

If there is doubt, why not re-count the votes? Of course if the postal votes for example have been replaced with new ballot papers marked as no, that might not change anything, but it would at least get rid of the suspicion that actual Yes votes were counted as No votes.

Another thing: Why was it said in advance that were would not be a recount?

Edited September 24, 2014 by Alibi

[Goozay]

This thread is reducing the independence debate to:

Videos on Youtube

Online polls

Quotes from Russian Officials about democracy

Throw in a few quotes from the bible and a global conspiracy including The Vatican, The Queen and Colonel Sanders and you've got all the credibility of Scotty CTA and Jude.

The referendum has clearly given a lot of people a lot of energy. If you want to affect positive change for Scotland you'll need to use that energy wisely.

[Larky Masher]

The Russian are representatives of an and morally corrupt oppressive regime not the people as a whole.

Edited September 24, 2014 by Larky Masher

[thplinth]

Not a full ten hours after the declaration of the defeat of Scotland’s bid for independence the Russian observers had raised a flag that the election had not been conducted in a manner that conformed to good practice and they stated their concerns that the referendum count had been “rigged.” Two of these observers have come forward and have made it clear that they are now willing to give evidence to the effect that the count was illegal. We can have no doubt that these accounts will not stand in either a Scottish or English court of law as they come from Russian sources. The whole world knows that Russia is not to be trusted. So it now must be asked why the British government sought Russian observers. Knowingly the Westminster administration sought tainted witnesses to witness its crime; almost the perfect crime. Earlier this evening a senior civil servant in the Irish Department of Foreign Affairs in Dublin made it known to us that this decision was known in advance in Dublin, and that preparation for a Yes vote had been cancelled. According to this source, from whom we have requested documentary evidence, it had been made clear to his department that “Westminster will not, under any circumstances, let go of Scotland.” Open diplomatic opinion in Ireland, a young state with hard experience of an independence struggle with Westminster, is that clandestine moves were made to safeguard Scottish resources for London.

http://thebutterflyrebellion.org/page/2/

[saintlyscot]

We have officials from polling stations told not to record seals, boxes arriving at counts with seals broken and unsafe areas for at some counts. WHY not just have a proper independent investigation to determine the truth? Separately, I am sceptical about the Russians but they were invited as part of the international scrutiny team and have flagged up some Issues. If this happened in certain other countries we would be making a song and dance about the result being invalid.

[thplinth]

The official observers said it was rigged.

It does not get much more black and white than that.

And people want you to discount it because they are Russians.

[jailender]

We have officials from polling stations told not to record seals, boxes arriving at counts with seals broken and unsafe areas for at some counts. WHY not just have a proper independent investigation to determine the truth? Separately, I am sceptical about the Russians but they were invited as part of the international scrutiny team and have flagged up some Issues. If this happened in certain other countries we would be making a song and dance about the result being invalid.

Have other members of the international scrutiny team raised the same issues ?

[Armchair Bob]

Why does that butterfly rebellion site use phrases like: separation from Great Britain? Makes it sound like it is written by a unionist.

[ShedTA]

Regardless of whether the vote was rigged and whether it has any material impact on the result, if these procedure breaches occurred it's very serious stuff.

[saintlyscot]

I am unsure as to whether any other observers had issues. Unsurprisingly it is difficult to find who they are. It was only the Russians who spoke out as far as I'm aware. As shed says, some of these issues Are serious criminal offences and should at the very least be investigated in the normal Ways By the electoral authorities and police.

[jailender]

If Wm were going to rig the vote, which must have taken a fair bit of organising, why did they bother offering the "vow" for more powers? It would have been better to not make an offer which is going to come back and give them more grief than they can possibly imagine.

[Toepoke]

Plus you would've thought Dave wouldn't be worried about his ulcers in that case either...

[thplinth]

Why does that butterfly rebellion site use phrases like: separation from Great Britain? Makes it sound like it is written by a unionist.

I do not know. It is a curiosity.