Holyrood Election - Second Vote

[thplinth]

You try again to spin something out of nothing.

"The U-Turn happened AFTER the election when the SNP had formed a government."

The telegraph article detailing the Labour minister's threat to block the SNP scrapping council tax for a fairer income tax came out ... April 25th 2007.

The election was May 3rd 2007.

 

 

 

 

 

[Lamia]

1 hour ago, Scunnered said:

You have a guy there attempting to rewrite history, but you focus on my shite patter?  I agree, tedious.

It is utterly irrelevant what he did or did not say. This is about you and your tedious mantra and posts that do nothing but wind people up rather than constructively attempt to make your case. 

It is not just about the people you are responding to some of whom will not be open to listening but also about others who might be reading your posts

if you simply aren't interested in pursuading anyone crack on but that seems incredibly self defeating and pointless 

[Scunnered]

19 minutes ago, thplinth said:

You try again to spin something out of nothing.

"The U-Turn happened AFTER the election when the SNP had formed a government."

The telegraph article detailing the Labour minister's threat to block the SNP scrapping council tax for a fairer income tax came out ... April 25th 2007.

The election was May 3rd 2007.

 

 

 

 

 

Jesus Christ you're scraping the barrel. Then you posted an article from 2008 where the first minister still intends to introduce his bill within the year. 8 months later the SNP u turned without introducing the bill. No one caused this other than the SNP. IF the SNP had introduced the bill and had it been voted down as your comrade claimed it had, you'd have grievance. But they didn't, the SNP broke a pledge from their manifesto... That's not spin, that's fact.

[Dave78]

1 hour ago, Parklife said:

Nope. I'm simply pointing out a broken manifesto pledge. The SNP didn't even bring a bill before parliament to scrap the council tax. 

We've subsequently had folk attempt to re-write history and defend the breaking of the promise. 

Looks like you cant. 

 

They didn't bring a bill proposing an independence referendum in that parliament either, because they knew it would have been blocked, and weak minority governments don't like to be seen to be defeated.

That was a broken promise too, eh?

[Parklife]

22 minutes ago, Dave78 said:

They didn't bring a bill proposing an independence referendum in that parliament either, because they knew it would have been blocked, and weak minority governments don't like to be seen to be defeated.

That was a broken promise too, eh?

Is that a serious comment? 

[Dave78]

9 minutes ago, Parklife said:

Is that a serious comment? 

Yep. With that out of the way, do you have a response to it, or...?

[thplinth]

It is pretty hard to take something out of a manifesto a week before an election so I will just assume you are not crazy enough to be suggesting that.

Should the SNP then drop it the day after, a week after, a year after.... who fecking cares what matters is why they dropped it.  Because Labour said they would yank the 400m subsidy effectively blocking the plan before it even got started. Labour knifed the  local income tax idea in the womb. But also at that point I suspect the SNP realized that a minority government is not the same as majority government you don't have the same (majority backed) mandate. That and Labour in London were clearly going to use it as an excuse to act like utter dicks and cut the 400m council tax subsidy to Scotland if it was replaced by local income tax.

So personally even now I would not do it as Westminster will use it to screw over Scotland somehow (in order to make the SNP unpopular), bank on it, and the tories and labour would gleefully collude in the screw over as they always do. Do it post independence.

Edited April 26, 2016 by thplinth

[Scunnered]

14 minutes ago, thplinth said:

It is pretty hard to take something out of a manifesto a week before an election so I will just assume you are not crazy enough to be suggesting that.

Should the SNP then drop it the day after, a week after, a year after.... who fecking cares what matters is why they dropped it.  Because Labour said they would yank the 400m subsidy effectively blocking the plan before it even got started. Labour knifed the  local income tax idea in the womb. But also at that point I suspect the SNP realized that a minority government is not the same as majority government you don't have the same (majority backed) mandate. That and Labour in London were clearly going to use it as an excuse to act like utter dicks and cut the 400m council tax subsidy to Scotland if it was replaced by local income tax.

So personally even now I would not do it as Westminster will use it to screw over Scotland somehow (in order to make the SNP unpopular), bank on it, and the tories and labour would gleefully collude in the screw over as they always do. Do it post independence.

Are you actually claiming that Alex Salmonds SNP, famous for "It's our pound" etc...  Shat out of raising a bill on an election pledge a full year after some Blairite made an unsubstantiated claim?  Is that what your getting at?

Here's the more plausible explanation.  The SNP simply changed their mind on scrapping the unfair council tax, hence why we didn't see it in the 2011 manifesto and we're not seeing it now.  The SNP have settled into their position as the establishment party the same way that every party does.  Lies, and broken promises.

Edited April 26, 2016 by Scunnered

[Parklife]

13 minutes ago, Dave78 said:

Yep. With that out of the way, do you have a response to it, or...?

It's pretty obviously not the same, as you well know. I'm not really interested in getting in to facile debates.

The SNP made a manifesto commitment (one which they made a big play on in the run up to the 2007 election btw), they then completely failed to bring a bill before parliament. These are the facts. You can defend it or excuse it any way you like. I'm not buying it though. 

 

[thplinth]

From the telegraph article...

"Earlier this month, Mr Salmond announced he would publish his Council Tax Abolition Bill over the next 12 months, with a view to introducing a local income tax in April 2011.

But experts have claimed that without the council tax benefit money, the First Minister would have to set his levy at 5p in the pound, a level that would see working families' bills soar."

And of course that is exactly why Labour would have taken the 400m subsidy away... to make this happen.

After Labour did this the local income tax plan could only work by a big increase in people tax bills. That was the moment Labour killed the proposal. If they had acted fairly who knows it might even have got proposed and voted through. But that is like asking a jackal not to be a jackal. Labour in London would have revoked the 400m subsidy and then Labour in Scotland would have supported the bill to screw the SNP. And the fact Scottish people would get badly shafted in the process would not have bothered them one bit. 

And then of course after they killed the chance of council tax reform they use it to blame the SNP for 'broken promises'. Classic New Labour stuff. They are a piece of work make no mistake.

Edited April 26, 2016 by thplinth

[aaid]

19 minutes ago, Parklife said:

It's pretty obviously not the same, as you well know. I'm not really interested in getting in to facile debates.

The SNP made a manifesto commitment (one which they made a big play on in the run up to the 2007 election btw), they then completely failed to bring a bill before parliament. These are the facts. You can defend it or excuse it any way you like. I'm not buying it though. 

 

In 2016, you are complaining about something the SNP didn't do in 2007-2011 and yet you voted for them in 2011.  That sounds a bit odd to me.

[Scunnered]

11 minutes ago, thplinth said:

From the telegraph article...

"Earlier this month, Mr Salmond announced he would publish his Council Tax Abolition Bill over the next 12 months, with a view to introducing a local income tax in April 2011.

But experts have claimed that without the council tax benefit money, the First Minister would have to set his levy at 5p in the pound, a level that would see working families' bills soar."

From the same article:

He said: 'This is a massive change in the UK Government's position whereby they've at last accepted that if the council tax is scrapped, then council tax benefit money can stay in Scotland."

Sake Plinthy.  I never took you as the naive type.  The SNP simply changed their mind, a broken promise is a broken promise.

 

[thplinth]

And from the other telegraph article...

"The row over SNP and Liberal Democrat plans to scrap council tax intensified last night when John Hutton, the Work and Pensions Secretary, said that it would leave a £381 million hole in council spending.

This is the sum currently paid by his department to the Scottish Executive to defray the cost of those who don't pay council tax.

Both the nationalists and the Lib Dems have said that they would expect the DWP to continue to hand over the cash, even if they replaced council tax with a local income tax, as it was money that was earmarked for the poorest."

So there you have it - had the SNP replaced council tax with local income tax Labour were going to use it as an excuse to take 400m off the 'poorest'.

That is what killed local income tax not just then but now as well. Labour killed it as it was a win win for them. If the SNP are forced to ditch it they can whine endlessly about 'broken promises'. If the SNP press ahead they fall into the trap of being 400m short. It is the usual deeply cynical stuff from New Labour and there is no difference with the Corbyn mob it seems.

[Orraloon]

I think this council tax thing highlights one of the main reasons Labour are in such a mess. When they still had some power up until 2010 they did everything they could to try to stop the SNP implementing any of their policies. Since 2010 they have no power and very little influence and all they do is shout "SNP BAD, SNP BAD". Folk who used to vote Labour want to know what they would do different, but all they do is slag off the SNP. 

[aaid]

24 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

I think this council tax thing highlights one of the main reasons Labour are in such a mess. When they still had some power up until 2010 they did everything they could to try to stop the SNP implementing any of their policies. Since 2010 they have no power and very little influence and all they do is shout "SNP BAD, SNP BAD". Folk who used to vote Labour want to know what they would do different, but all they do is slag off the SNP. 

It's SLab policy, it even has a name - the Bain Principle.

[Orraloon]

31 minutes ago, aaid said:

It's SLab policy, it even has a name - the Bain Principle.

http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2012/03/31/the-bain-principle/

 

[Parklife]

1 hour ago, Orraloon said:

I think this council tax thing highlights one of the main reasons Labour are in such a mess. When they still had some power up until 2010 they did everything they could to try to stop the SNP implementing any of their policies. Since 2010 they have no power and very little influence and all they do is shout "SNP BAD, SNP BAD". Folk who used to vote Labour want to know what they would do different, but all they do is slag off the SNP. 

I've never voted Labour in my life. I'm just not any unquestioning SNP fanboy, like most on here are. 

You're like one of those Old Firm fans who thinks that anyone questioning Rangers must be a Celtic fan (or vice versa). 

[Orraloon]

48 minutes ago, Parklife said:

You're like one of those Old Firm fans 

I know I accused you of being an Arsenal fan, but there's nae need for that. Tooooo far.

[Orraloon]

50 minutes ago, Parklife said:

I've never voted Labour in my life. 

I never said you did. My point was a general comment. It's not all about you, you know.

[Orraloon]

56 minutes ago, Parklife said:

I've never voted Labour in my life. I'm just not any unquestioning SNP fanboy, like most on here are. 

You're like one of those Old Firm fans who thinks that anyone questioning Rangers must be a Celtic fan (or vice versa). 

If you had been paying attention, you would have seen that I have already said that I don't agree with the SNPs planned policy on Council Tax. 

[stocky]

10 hours ago, Parklife said:

So in the 9 years since winning election (5 of which have been in majority government) the SNP have not brought to parliament one single proposal to replace the council tax, despite vowing to do so in their 2007 manifesto? 

A manifesto only lasts the length of the parliament. They dont last forever and a day.....

They didnt bring it to a vote in 2007 as they were a minority

they didnt bring it to the vote in 2011 as it wasnt in their manifesto

it wont be in the 2016 parliament as its not in the manifesto

 

And if you dont win a majority you cant do what you said and compromise has to be reached..

 

You do understand how things work dont you??

Edited April 26, 2016 by stocky

[stocky]

4 hours ago, Scunnered said:

Are you actually claiming that Alex Salmonds SNP, famous for "It's our pound" etc...  Shat out of raising a bill on an election pledge a full year after some Blairite made an unsubstantiated claim?  Is that what your getting at?

Here's the more plausible explanation.  The SNP simply changed their mind on scrapping the unfair council tax, hence why we didn't see it in the 2011 manifesto and we're not seeing it now.  The SNP have settled into their position as the establishment party the same way that every party does.  Lies, and broken promises.

the second part of that is correct.except for the last line..

 No Lies or Broken Promises, if they had been a majority in 2007 then your point would be valid, and you are well aware of this Scunny, that point is beneath someone of your political experience and knowledge,

 

When they got into powerin 2007  they couldnae do it so they dropped it.  a realisation that the will of the Parliament would be against them.  

 

[Dave78]

6 hours ago, Parklife said:

It's pretty obviously not the same, as you well know. I'm not really interested in getting in to facile debates.

The SNP made a manifesto commitment (one which they made a big play on in the run up to the 2007 election btw), they then completely failed to bring a bill before parliament. These are the facts. You can defend it or excuse it any way you like. I'm not buying it though. 

 

What was the difference exactly? Both were manifesto pledges that they didn't have the support to enact.

 

[hampden_loon2878]

19 hours ago, Scunnered said:

Jesus Christ you're scraping the barrel. Then you posted an article from 2008 where the first minister still intends to introduce his bill within the year. 8 months later the SNP u turned without introducing the bill. No one caused this other than the SNP. IF the SNP had introduced the bill and had it been voted down as your comrade claimed it had, you'd have grievance. But they didn't, the SNP broke a pledge from their manifesto... That's not spin, that's fact.

Scunnerd has a point,there are a few occasions they have back tracked, the snp were close to losing my vote when they did a huge u turn on the common fishing policy,,, they campaigned shoulder to shoulder with the fishermen then when they had a foot hold of power they completely abandoned them,,, i was very disillusioned for a while and had there been another half decent indy party my votes would have gone to them 

[Orraloon]

5 hours ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

Scunnerd has a point,there are a few occasions they have back tracked, the snp were close to losing my vote when they did a huge u turn on the common fishing policy,,, they campaigned shoulder to shoulder with the fishermen then when they had a foot hold of power they completely abandoned them,,, i was very disillusioned for a while and had there been another half decent indy party my votes would have gone to them 

What did they do a u turn on?