antidote Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 The stress fractures weren't found on the last maintenance checks and if the opposition, mainly the red tories, hadn't blocked the building of a new bridge for a year in Holyrood then the new bridge may well have been in operation today. The opposition have to tread carefully on this one too Auld Reekie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoonTheSlope Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 The stress fractures weren't found on the last maintenance checks and if the opposition, mainly the red tories, hadn't blocked the building of a new bridge for a year in Holyrood then the new bridge may well have been in operation today. The opposition have to tread carefully on this one too Auld Reekie. Labourbad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antidote Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 Labourbad Labour hypocritically very bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hampden_loon2878 Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 Looks to me that all parties have blame in this, given how little greif the snp have had so far,,, maybe the unionist parties have more to lose on this one,,, i dont think the media have it in them to bide their time,,, i think the fact that the snp pushed forward with the new crossing against the unionist parties will has sheltered them from the media storm as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auld_Reekie Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 The stress fractures weren't found on the last maintenance checks and if the opposition, mainly the red tories, hadn't blocked the building of a new bridge for a year in Holyrood then the new bridge may well have been in operation today. The opposition have to tread carefully on this one too Auld Reekie. P*sh. Im not going to play a game of whataboutery. If funding cuts by Scottish Government really are to blame there should be hell to pay. No amount of whataboutery will save the Scottish Government from the criticism that's coming their way, and attempting to do so will make them look even worse. It needs to be taken on the chin and the contingency effort so far suggests they aren't underestimating what it will take to keep them sweet with the electorate. The only reason there's not been more made of this is because the opposition and the media are taking their time to get their knives sharpened. There is absolutely no way they're going to let this slide. FOI's, off the record briefings, finding out who has axes to grind. This story is going nowhere for a month at least so there's plenty of time to dig. And that's assuming it can be fixed by within the month. I think it's likely to be longer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antidote Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 P*sh. Im not going to play a game of whataboutery. If funding cuts by Scottish Government really are to blame there should be hell to pay. No amount of whataboutery will save the Scottish Government from the criticism that's coming their way, and attempting to do so will make them look even worse. It needs to be taken on the chin and the contingency effort so far suggests they aren't underestimating what it will take to keep them sweet with the electorate. The only reason there's not been more made of this is because the opposition and the media are taking their time to get their knives sharpened. There is absolutely no way they're going to let this slide. FOI's, off the record briefings, finding out who has axes to grind. This story is going nowhere for a month at least so there's plenty of time to dig. And that's assuming it can be fixed by within the month. I think it's likely to be longer. Not playing whataboutery, but you then went on to play whataboutery about the Scottish Gov possible funding cuts. If you want to know the real reason then why not look at the previous Scottish Lab/Lib Gov who didn't take action in their tenure. If you think the hapless opposition are sharpening their knives on this then you are somewhat deluded. The opposition have never flinched before on using blunt knives. They'll look for an angle, SNP bad again, but it will be the unionist media that infest our lives here in Scotland that will try to do the dirty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 P*sh. Im not going to play a game of whataboutery. If funding cuts by Scottish Government really are to blame there should be hell to pay. No amount of whataboutery will save the Scottish Government from the criticism that's coming their way, and attempting to do so will make them look even worse. It needs to be taken on the chin and the contingency effort so far suggests they aren't underestimating what it will take to keep them sweet with the electorate. The only reason there's not been more made of this is because the opposition and the media are taking their time to get their knives sharpened. There is absolutely no way they're going to let this slide. FOI's, off the record briefings, finding out who has axes to grind. This story is going nowhere for a month at least so there's plenty of time to dig. And that's assuming it can be fixed by within the month. I think it's likely to be longer. I'm hard as a rock!!! Tell me more!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoonTheSlope Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 These Fifers really need to remember that Fife is not an island Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larky Masher Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 As a qualified bridge engineer I'd say the bridge was probably on annual visual inspections, possibly reduced to six monthly if there was any particular concerns. An entirely reasonable examination frequency. The photo I've seen shows a fatigue crack at a critical connection. Obviously not ideal. The problem then is identifying the extent of damage in other connections given the same detail would be replicated over the entire structure. They would have done this fairly quickly, and the fact the bridge is now closed suggests they didn't like what they found. In terms of a fix, physically getting to these will be the biggest problem. Largely dependant on weather and whether or not it's reachable by a walkway (unlikely) or by roped access. Then you have to get steel plates done there to fix it. Interesting to see how this one pans out but glad it ain't my job. A month to fix it would be good going. Out of curiosity are "modern" bridges of the Forth Road Bridge's size built with any remote sensing for real-time monitoring of key parameters? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alibi Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 i'm a civil engineer too although not a bridge specialis. How exactly would funding cuts (which would no doubt be a result of Westminster cuts) cause steelwork to develop fatigue or stress cracks? It would seem more likely that increases in traffic loading since the bridge was designed (which would be around 1960 as it opened in 1964 i think) would be a far more likely casue, and if the cracks had developed before now they would have been picked up by inspections. If they try to blame the SG for this, it's purely political mischief making. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daddybuc16 Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 Diversion routes here folks https://trafficscotland.org/UploadedFiles/Schematic-Overview_Rev_C.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoonTheSlope Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 Hopefully there's a very small non injury causing bump or two on one of the diversions tomorrow... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larky Masher Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 Diversion routes here folks https://trafficscotland.org/UploadedFiles/Schematic-Overview_Rev_C.jpg Those will put people's petrol bills up a bit, but at least there's at been some response from the government. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 Those will put people's petrol bills up a bit, but at least there's at been some response from the government. No hovercraft? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 (edited) Glasgow, the beating heart of Scotland. Edinburgh, some will say "its brains" they are kunts. Its wallet. Aberdeen, its sphincter(s) Why dont folk in Edinburgh just take the tube to work instead? Edited December 6, 2015 by thplinth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daddybuc16 Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 Those will put people's petrol bills up a bit, but at least there's at been some response from the government. 40 odd mile diversion according to radio. Was up to 50 on one radio station at least they have done something about it, tried to separate what is, a shitload of traffic for one road. Maybe a bit busier around the bridges especially at rush hour, but maybe the best they could come up with. Extra trains on as well, so that may ease the pressure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auld_Reekie Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 (edited) IMO, the response has been thorough and they seem to have given it the severity it deserves. The cynic in me suggests this is for two reasons: 1) they know this is a monumental f*** up on their part and they have to throw everything at it if they want to minimise damage. And 2) the scale of the damage and risk to public safety is greater than many realise and they know they are in for the long haul to get it fixed. Not a chance of it being open for start of January if you ask me. Be surprised if they've even started before Christmas. You don't just rock up and starting fixing something like this. If damaged parts really are load bearing - that means some other means will need to be devised to take the load while new parts are installed. Probably worst part of bridge to get access to as well. It certainly doesn't have the feel of a 2-4 week job to me. Looks more like 3-6 months to my untrained eye. Might be possibility of compromised work plan (immediate repairs, reopen single carriageway each way, with deferred works next summer requiring week or two closure at a time - would allow everyone more time to plan ahead for disruptions). Either way, cost is going to be huge. And that's just the overtime. Impact on economy will be massive as well. Edited December 6, 2015 by Auld_Reekie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 IMO, the response has been thorough and they seem to have given it the severity it deserves. The cynic in me suggests this is for two reasons: 1) they know this is a monumental f*** up on their part and they have to throw everything at it if they want to minimise damage. And 2) the scale of the damage and risk to public safety is greater than many realise and they know they are in for the long haul to get it fixed. Not a chance of it being open for start of January if you ask me. Be surprised if they've even started before Christmas. You don't just rock up and starting fixing something like this. If damaged parts really are load bearing - that means some other means will need to be devised to take the load while new parts are installed. Probably worst part of bridge to get access to as well. It certainly doesn't have the feel of a 2-4 week job to me. Looks more like 3-6 months to my untrained eye. Might be possibility of compromised work plan (immediate repairs, reopen single carriageway each way, with deferred works next summer requiring week or two closure at a time - would allow everyone more time to plan ahead for disruptions). Either way, cost is going to be huge. And that's just the overtime. Impact on economy will be massive as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PompeySon Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 Out of curiosity are "modern" bridges of the Forth Road Bridge's size built with any remote sensing for real-time monitoring of key parameters? Yes. The new bridge will have some of the most technically advanced monitoring systems in the world. Almost all new structures on that scale would have some form of remote monitoring. The existing bridge may well have been monitored but it would have been retrospective and therefore only installed in known areas of high stress, areas of concern etc. The issues with the cables that formed the basis for the business case for a new crossing were identified using monitoring apparatus. The bridge was never designed to carry the volume and weight of modern traffic, so it's not difficult to see why it's starting to show signs of distress. I'm told the defects were in hard to reach areas, so it may be that these were only inspected at longer intervals, say 5-years, during detailed surveys, rather than a more general annual inspection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lamia Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 i'm a civil engineer too although not a bridge specialis. How exactly would funding cuts (which would no doubt be a result of Westminster cuts) cause steelwork to develop fatigue or stress cracks? It would seem more likely that increases in traffic loading since the bridge was designed (which would be around 1960 as it opened in 1964 i think) would be a far more likely casue, and if the cracks had developed before now they would have been picked up by inspections. If they try to blame the SG for this, it's purely political mischief making. IMO, the response has been thorough and they seem to have given it the severity it deserves. The cynic in me suggests this is for two reasons: 1) they know this is a monumental f*** up on their part and they have to throw everything at it if they want to minimise damage. And 2) the scale of the damage and risk to public safety is greater than many realise and they know they are in for the long haul to get it fixed. Not a chance of it being open for start of January if you ask me. Be surprised if they've even started before Christmas. You don't just rock up and starting fixing something like this. If damaged parts really are load bearing - that means some other means will need to be devised to take the load while new parts are installed. Probably worst part of bridge to get access to as well. It certainly doesn't have the feel of a 2-4 week job to me. Looks more like 3-6 months to my untrained eye. Might be possibility of compromised work plan (immediate repairs, reopen single carriageway each way, with deferred works next summer requiring week or two closure at a time - would allow everyone more time to plan ahead for disruptions). Either way, cost is going to be huge. And that's just the overtime. Impact on economy will be massive as well. Just wondered what your view of the above post was? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auld_Reekie Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 A fair to decent chance of a proper SNP scandal. Bet you haven't stopped thrashing the heid aff it all week eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auld_Reekie Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 Just wondered what your view of the above post was? i dont disagree with it but there's clear evidence out there that contracts have been out to tender from as far back as 2010 that explicitly refer to work on over-stressed truss end links. I certainly do not deny that the bridge is massively over-stressed and over-capacity and the SNP now deserve huge credit for starting the new crossing, but that cannot be an excuse to turn the other cheek if public safety has been compromised or budget cuts have led to this. Dont get me wrong, politicians might not be to blame - it's equally possible that civil servants, FETA, Transport Scotland, whoever have failed to adequately manage or articulate the risk to the bridge - a thorough investigation is required and it's important people put their party loyalty aside and ensure that regardless of the colour of the rosette, an explanation is given as to how this has happened. And for what it's worth, Labour will be equally culpable when the long-term questions and investment is investigated. But no matter what way you cut it, the SNP are in for a horrendous time whether it's the questions about cancelled maintenance contracts or ending tolls that would have covered the cost of these contracts. I dont like it as much as you, but that's the reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tangerinetartan Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 Its no all bad the bridge being shut ,just got a fare Dundee to Edinburgh airport £180 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deecie Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 Those will put people's petrol bills up a bit, but at least there's at been some response from the government. Fantastic news! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted December 6, 2015 Share Posted December 6, 2015 One bridge goes down and the whole of the East Coast is in disarray. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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