James Forrest....

[Squirrelhumper]

On 4/30/2024 at 9:34 AM, kwhitelaw said:

 

People really need to give it a rest with Gauld and Morgan though.  The MLS is not a great league, it's well marketed and is a retirement home for 35+ year old superstars, so people who've never watched a game are tricked into thinking it's a good level.  How many players have come to Scotland from an MLS team in the last few years that have either went back or disappeared off to a lower level?

Morgan and Gauld aren't good enough for the level of international football Scotland want to compete at but are above the average level required for the MLS which is why they're flourishing over there.

 

Well said, they are getting better and better in folks minds with every passing squad.

Morgan couldn't cut it at Celtic where Forrest has won has won more trophies than just about anyone in their history and Gauld is 28 and never had a sniff of a cap under numerous managers. 

[Squirrelhumper]

17 hours ago, Diamond Scot said:

I

I dont think Doak has earned a call up and wouldnt be near the squad if it was 23 or if we didnt have some injuries but he will be a big player going forward and the experience will do him good. Its unlikely any of the 24 to 26 players will get much if any gametime.

 

Absolutely agree, especially in a 26 man squad. 

[Squirrelhumper]

23 minutes ago, giblet said:

 

We dont need a winger who clearly has lost at least a yard of pace and who can only play 20 mins a game as our special weapon. 

 

We need somebody who knows how to score when given chances we created against the likes of Holland though and a winger with well over 100 career goals and still scoring now isn't something we have in abundance. He's scored some huge goals for Celtic. He's a decent sub when chasing a game IMO.

[mccaughey85]

2 hours ago, Squirrelhumper said:

We need somebody who knows how to score when given chances we created against the likes of Holland though and a winger with well over 100 career goals and still scoring now isn't something we have in abundance. He's scored some huge goals for Celtic. He's a decent sub when chasing a game IMO.

Hes never done that for Scotland though. Vast majority of his performances for Scotland were average/poor. 

Not massively against him getting picked but I think he's had more than enough chances over the years to impress and he's never done much apart from those 2 games against israel and albania where he was on fire tbf.

[Reidster78]

15 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

Hes never done that for Scotland though. Vast majority of his performances for Scotland were average/poor. 

Not massively against him getting picked but I think he's had more than enough chances over the years to impress and he's never done much apart from those 2 games against israel and albania where he was on fire tbf.

Did he not score 4 goals in a game for Scotland? 

[vanderark14]

26 minutes ago, Reidster78 said:

Did he not score 4 goals in a game for Scotland? 

He scored 5 in 2 games in the space of 4 days, that's his total for Scotland in terms of goals.

Forrest just didn't produce his celtic form for Scotland apart from that week against Israel and Albania.

[kwhitelaw]

On 4/30/2024 at 7:58 PM, mccaughey85 said:

Is the MLS any worse than the spl or English championship? Loads of MLS players played at the last world cup and loads play international football for sides of similar quality to ours.It's hardly a league that we can afford to turn our noses up at.

We are not Brazil or Spain.

Also what players have came to Scotland from the MLS that have failed? Can't think of many.

The guy Johnston seems to be doing well at Celtic. 

Ramirez the striker did ok at Aberdeen although I don't think he was some kind of star in the MLS to start with.

Who do you think should be our replacement players bearing in mind we could need 4 or 5?

If you look at it from a defensive stand point, yes it is worse than both those leagues imo.  It's common knowledge that the MLS likes to promote entertainment as well as the sport itself and encourages teams to play open attacking football.  You almost never see an MLS game end in a 0-0 shitefest, hence, why attacking players like Gauld, Morgan and Russell have thrived there.

With regards to MLS players at World Cups I can be arsed googling them but I'd like to see exactly which players and teams you refer to.  I'd wager many of those players are from countries with easier qualification paths than the European sides and many don't have players playing at a higher level than the MLS.  Off the top of my head Shaqiri for the Swiss is the only European anomoly and that's due him still being one of the best players the Swiss have despite his older age.

Off the top of my head, Mueller and Cifuentes (spelling?) at Rangers and Ramirez at Aberdeen, can't remember the lads name but he went to Hibs from (I think) Orlando and lasted only a few months.  I'm sure there's more.  A better question would have been how many players have been poor/alright/meh in the SPL but have went over there and suddenly become superstars.  That list then gets longer.

Alistair Johnston?  There's always a few that buck the trend but they're identified pretty quickly and don't tend to stay in the MLS for long.

Ramirez?  See above, he started well at Aberdeen but then seemed to disappear although that could have been due to Goodwin.  Dons fans can correct me on that one.

Our most needed replacements are defenders just now, the only definite attacker out is Ferguson who's on the bench more often than not.  Armstrong's not looking great so if he's out too then I say Fraser and Forrest.  Both are playing at a higher level (imo) and already have international experience.

For what it's worth, I'm not entirely against giving both Morgan or Gauld a shot at Scotland but there's no way I'd parachute them straight into the squad for a Finals just because of a couple of injuries and folk are panicking.

[GroundsKeeper]

James Forrest on current form, NO BRAINER.

Expect him to be in the Gib and Finland squads, the in Germany 26 man squad.

Experienced and bang on form. At 32 this would be his last Major Tournament

 

 

[vanderark14]

1 hour ago, GroundsKeeper said:

James Forrest on current form, NO BRAINER.

Expect him to be in the Gib and Finland squads, the in Germany 26 man squad.

Experienced and bang on form. At 32 this would be his last Major Tournament

 

 

He's played well in 2 matches this season. When he was on peak form a few years back, he still didn't turn it on for scotland.

People are getting carried away with these 3 goals

[kumnio]

6 hours ago, vanderark14 said:

He scored 5 in 2 games in the space of 4 days, that's his total for Scotland in terms of goals.

Forrest just didn't produce his celtic form for Scotland apart from that week against Israel and Albania.

 

36 minutes ago, vanderark14 said:

He's played well in 2 matches this season. When he was on peak form a few years back, he still didn't turn it on for scotland.

People are getting carried away with these 3 goals

Exactly. He has 38 caps, the vast majority were average at absolute best, and thats being kind.

He was excellent in two games, within the space of a week, back in 2018. Two excellent games that were almost 6 years ago, he did nothing before that spell, and nothing since. 

I do believe that we need something different than the midfielders that we currently have, but an over the hill Forrest really isn't it IMO.

[Big Ramy 1314]

Lots of good opinions on this topic, here is mine. 

I would bring him if the injuries mount up. The boy is on good form, scored come important goals for Celtic. He has experience and he is not afraid to take a player on have a crack at goal... He has played for Scotland and is loyal. 20 min left, we need a goal, he is defo the boy I would bring on.... Good thread....🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

[vanderark14]

41 minutes ago, Big Ramy 1314 said:

Lots of good opinions on this topic, here is mine. 

I would bring him if the injuries mount up. The boy is on good form, scored come important goals for Celtic. He has experience and he is not afraid to take a player on have a crack at goal... He has played for Scotland and is loyal. 20 min left, we need a goal, he is defo the boy I would bring on.... Good thread....🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

Some sort of fantasy about James Forrests ability has some how crept unto some of our support. He was never the player to bring on when need a goal for scotland, for celtic he maybe is but he was never the same for Scotland.

[BryanBlessed]

I wouldn't have him as a starter and I'd have Ryan Fraser in before him but it could be a good addition depending on injuries and the fitness of Armstrong (if he makes it) etc. I feel people are being a bit too critical of him based on previous showings for Scotland as a lot of our outstanding players now were hardly setting the world on fire back then.  

I actually quite like his brother for Hearts. I'm not suggesting he should be called up but he definitely would have been in years gone by. Shows how far we've come.

 

 

[mccaughey85]

8 hours ago, kwhitelaw said:

If you look at it from a defensive stand point, yes it is worse than both those leagues imo.  It's common knowledge that the MLS likes to promote entertainment as well as the sport itself and encourages teams to play open attacking football.  You almost never see an MLS game end in a 0-0 shitefest, hence, why attacking players like Gauld, Morgan and Russell have thrived there.

With regards to MLS players at World Cups I can be arsed googling them but I'd like to see exactly which players and teams you refer to.  I'd wager many of those players are from countries with easier qualification paths than the European sides and many don't have players playing at a higher level than the MLS.  Off the top of my head Shaqiri for the Swiss is the only European anomoly and that's due him still being one of the best players the Swiss have despite his older age.

Off the top of my head, Mueller and Cifuentes (spelling?) at Rangers and Ramirez at Aberdeen, can't remember the lads name but he went to Hibs from (I think) Orlando and lasted only a few months.  I'm sure there's more.  A better question would have been how many players have been poor/alright/meh in the SPL but have went over there and suddenly become superstars.  That list then gets longer.

Alistair Johnston?  There's always a few that buck the trend but they're identified pretty quickly and don't tend to stay in the MLS for long.

Ramirez?  See above, he started well at Aberdeen but then seemed to disappear although that could have been due to Goodwin.  Dons fans can correct me on that one.

Our most needed replacements are defenders just now, the only definite attacker out is Ferguson who's on the bench more often than not.  Armstrong's not looking great so if he's out too then I say Fraser and Forrest.  Both are playing at a higher level (imo) and already have international experience.

For what it's worth, I'm not entirely against giving both Morgan or Gauld a shot at Scotland but there's no way I'd parachute them straight into the squad for a Finals just because of a couple of injuries and folk are panicking.

You ever seen some of the defending in the spl? It's comical at times. 

Not to mention how poor some of the other aspects are like fitness and technique are.

Look how poor the non old firm teams do in Europe. 

Regardless of wether a country has had an easier path they can still be of similar standard to us. Countries like USA, Canada and mexico had MLS players. Cameroon, Uruguay and Costa rica also.

There's heaps of countries that didn't qualify who are of similar standard to us who rely on MLS players as well. 

There's probably dozens of established international footballers in the MLS. How many established internationals play in the spl? If you take out the old firm there's probably only a handful. Even with the old firm theres probably less than 15.

Why are you using Ramirez at Aberdeen. His stats were hardly stellar in the MLS and he did reasonably well at Aberdeen. 

You have pulled out a couple of guys that haven't made the transition from MLS to the spl as an example of why the spl is better. Thats hardly a very conclusive. Also there's guys like Stuart Findlay and Gary Mackay Steven who struggled in the MLS after being relatively successful in the spl. 

I would rather go by how many established international footballers each league has playing or by what I see with my own eyes in terms of technique and tempo of games.

Also what guys have struggled in the spl and went onto be stars in the MLS? Morgans the only one I can think of and even he had some decent performances for Celtic. Also Morgan didn't suddenly start doing well once he moved to the MLS. It's taken him a couple seasons at least to establish himself as a good player there.

End of the day the MLS isn't a great standard but the idea that we can overlook players from there is daft when loads of similar level nations pick players from there.

And if you think we are vastly superior to Canada or USA then go take a look at their squads and get back to me. This isn't the 80s or 90s anymore.

Edited May 2 by mccaughey85

[mccaughey85]

12 hours ago, Reidster78 said:

Did he not score 4 goals in a game for Scotland? 

 

11 hours ago, vanderark14 said:

He scored 5 in 2 games in the space of 4 days, that's his total for Scotland in terms of goals.

Forrest just didn't produce his celtic form for Scotland apart from that week against Israel and Albania.

It's not just that he didn't score goals he was generally poor with assists and performances were average(being kind) nearly every game barring 3 or 4 games.

Obviously those 2 games he was brilliant and I will give him credit for that.

[BookhouseBoys]

2 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

You ever seen some of the defending in the spl? It's comical at times. 

Not to mention how poor some of the other aspects are like fitness and technique are.

Look how poor the non old firm teams do in Europe. 

Regardless of wether a country has had an easier path they can still be of similar standard to us. Countries like USA, Canada and mexico had MLS players. Cameroon, Uruguay and Costa rica also.

There's heaps of countries that didn't qualify who are of similar standard to us who rely on MLS players as well. 

There's probably dozens of established international footballers in the MLS. How many established internationals play in the spl? If you take out the old firm there's probably only a handful. Even with the old firm theres probably less than 15.

Why are you using Ramirez at Aberdeen. His stats were hardly stellar in the MLS and he did reasonably well at Aberdeen. 

You have pulled out a couple of guys that haven't made the transition from MLS to the spl as an example of why the spl is better. Thats hardly a very conclusive. Also there's guys like Stuart Findlay and Gary Mackay Steven who struggled in the MLS after being relatively successful in the spl. 

I would rather go by how many established international footballers each league has playing or by what I see with my own eyes in terms of technique and tempo of games.

Also what guys have struggled in the spl and went onto be stars in the MLS? Morgans the only one I can think of and even he had some decent performances for Celtic. Also Morgan didn't suddenly start doing well once he moved to the MLS. It's taken him a couple seasons at least to establish himself as a good player there.

End of the day the MLS isn't a great standard but the idea that we can overlook players from there is daft when loads of similar level nations pick players from there.

And if you think we are vastly superior to Canada or USA then go take a look at their squads and get back to me. This isn't the 80s or 90s anymore.

Agree with this entirely. I think MLS and Scottish Prem are much of a muchness for now, but even that might be looking at it with tartan specs. I’m convinced that the MLS will end up being one of the top leagues in the world along with the top 5 in Europe soon enough because they’re pumping that much money at it. That’s likely why Gauld went there in the first place. There was lots of press of interest from all over Europe when he was finishing up in Portugal, but Vancouver offered him what players at the top end of the EPL are getting. It sounded like Sporting pissed him about a lot, though, so it’s not much of a surprise that he chose to go there.
 

The crowds are also getting better and better and they’re already attracting younger and better players to the league. It isn’t just a retirement home anymore. Adding to that, ‘soccer’ has grown a ton over the past twenty odd years for kids. They’re pouring money in at the grassroots, too. That brings more potential spectators because they love the game, but also more American/Canadian players of a higher quality. So yep, player quality in MLS might be roughly equivalent as the Scottish Prem, but it’s likely to be a good bit higher soon.

[mccaughey85]

14 minutes ago, BookhouseBoys said:

Agree with this entirely. I think MLS and Scottish Prem are much of a muchness for now, but even that might be looking at it with tartan specs. I’m convinced that the MLS will end up being one of the top leagues in the world along with the top 5 in Europe soon enough because they’re pumping that much money at it. That’s likely why Gauld went there in the first place. There was lots of press of interest from all over Europe when he was finishing up in Portugal, but Vancouver offered him what players at the top end of the EPL are getting. It sounded like Sporting pissed him about a lot, though, so it’s not much of a surprise that he chose to go there.
 

The crowds are also getting better and better and they’re already attracting younger and better players to the league. It isn’t just a retirement home anymore. Adding to that, ‘soccer’ has grown a ton over the past twenty odd years for kids. They’re pouring money in at the grassroots, too. That brings more potential spectators because they love the game, but also more American/Canadian players of a higher quality. So yep, player quality in MLS might be roughly equivalent as the Scottish Prem, but it’s likely to be a good bit higher soon.

I think the overall strength might be higher in MLS. You take the old firm out of the spl and the quality dips massively. 

Alot of spl teams rely on guys from english league 1 and 2 and often it's guys who weren't even that great at that level.

[Bobby Russell's Lovechild]

Are we talking about this James Forrest🤔 not exactly a Stella season

[vanderark14]

7 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

 

It's not just that he didn't score goals he was generally poor with assists and performances were average(being kind) nearly every game barring 3 or 4 games.

Obviously those 2 games he was brilliant and I will give him credit for that.

The only argument for forrest is our lack of depth due to the new squad size.

Personally if Clarke was already prepared with 23, I'd call up 2 or 3 under 21s.

[ProudScot]

It’s laughable when folk look down on the MLS or Saudi leagues etc.

Our league is amateurish beyond belief from the running of it to the majority of the standard. If you take the old firm and the money they bring out, we’re left with the league of Ireland type league

[vanderark14]

7 minutes ago, ProudScot said:

It’s laughable when folk look down on the MLS or Saudi leagues etc.

Our league is amateurish beyond belief from the running of it to the majority of the standard. If you take the old firm and the money they bring out, we’re left with the league of Ireland type league

Thats utter horse shit

[Bobby Russell's Lovechild]

1 hour ago, vanderark14 said:

Thats utter horse shit

Tbf, it was only two years ago that Sligo beat the 'well home and away in Europe

[kwhitelaw]

13 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

You ever seen some of the defending in the spl? It's comical at times. 

Not to mention how poor some of the other aspects are like fitness and technique are.

Look how poor the non old firm teams do in Europe. 

There's comical defending in every league, go watch some MLS highlights you'll find plenty there too.  The Non OF teams in Europe is such an easy stick to beat us with and actually quite unfair.  Many, many times Scottish teams have their first competitive game of the season in Europe and often against sides mid-way through their own seasons. Straight away they're at a disadvantage especially if there's been managerial changes and/or squad overhauls pre season.  Yes there's been some shockers, but those are often a result of Scottish sides underestimating other sides and are played on by the media and blown out of proportion to sell newspapers/gain clicks.  Both Hearts and Aberdeen have recently had fairly respectful performances in the Europa Conference so it shows we can actually compete with leagues similar in stature.

Regardless of wether a country has had an easier path they can still be of similar standard to us. Countries like USA, Canada and mexico had MLS players. Cameroon, Uruguay and Costa rica also.

There's heaps of countries that didn't qualify who are of similar standard to us who rely on MLS players as well. 

There's probably dozens of established international footballers in the MLS. How many established internationals play in the spl? If you take out the old firm there's probably only a handful. Even with the old firm theres probably less than 15.

You're either missing my point or avoiding it.  If we didn't have players in form for OF/EPL/EC teams then obviously we'd call up MLS based players, but we do and many of these countries only have players playing in the MLS as their highest level.  Northern Ireland and Wales both had EFL1 players in their squads for Euro 16 and the World Cup for Wales,  but that doesn't make that league spectacular.

Why are you using Ramirez at Aberdeen. His stats were hardly stellar in the MLS and he did reasonably well at Aberdeen. 

Well you brought him up first 😂.  His stats in the MLS were actually quite good, but he faded away here after a bright start.  He went straight back to the MLS and guess what?  He won it with Columbus Crew as one of their top scorers. 

You have pulled out a couple of guys that haven't made the transition from MLS to the spl as an example of why the spl is better. Thats hardly a very conclusive. Also there's guys like Stuart Findlay and Gary Mackay Steven who struggled in the MLS after being relatively successful in the spl. 

No disrespect but you've hardly provided any rock solid evidence yourself.  I'll take your word on Findlay but I don't remember him being labelled as a flop out there, he started quite a few games for Philadelphia.  As for GMS, that's just not true, he was involved in many games for NY City both starting and from the bench at a time when they paired with Man City and were filling the squad with the likes of Pirlo, Lampard and David Villa.  Think they were even MLS Champions when he was there, but don't quote me on that.

I would rather go by how many established international footballers each league has playing or by what I see with my own eyes in terms of technique and tempo of games.

Also what guys have struggled in the spl and went onto be stars in the MLS? Morgans the only one I can think of and even he had some decent performances for Celtic. Also Morgan didn't suddenly start doing well once he moved to the MLS. It's taken him a couple seasons at least to establish himself as a good player there.

Morgan was Inter Miami's top scorer in his first season out there.  Gauld struggled when he came back to Scotland and left to become a Vancouver legend.  James Sands, (remember him Rangers fans?) is doing well.  I've already mentioned Ramirez. Giakoumakis ex Celtic has taken one season to surpass his goal tally from 2 seasons at Celtic.

End of the day the MLS isn't a great standard but the idea that we can overlook players from there is daft when loads of similar level nations pick players from there.

As I said in my last post I'm not against calling these guys up if there's no better option but we do have better options.

And if you think we are vastly superior to Canada or USA then go take a look at their squads and get back to me. This isn't the 80s or 90s anymore.

WTF?  What's your point here?  Not once did I mention anything about those two countries.  Since you brought them up lets look at them for talking's sake.  The last US squad had a grand total of 2 MLS based players, their 3rd choice GK and one 8 defenders.  Every other player is based in one of Europe tops leagues with 2 in the English Championship so obviously they're a stronger side.

Canada's last squad was half MLS, half European based from mostly top leagues and the English Championship and are currently ranked lower than us, but if both Scotland and Canada's strongest 11 went head to head I'd be comfortable in predicting a Scotland win.

[GroundsKeeper]

21 hours ago, vanderark14 said:

He's played well in 2 matches this season. When he was on peak form a few years back, he still didn't turn it on for scotland.

People are getting carried away with these 3 goals

James has hit form at the right time. Obviosly he will need to keep up this form, but to ignore a player who's hit form, has international experience and is fresh from not having had a long season would be Clarkes choice.

I will respect whatever Clarke decides. But James will be considered.

We need a change of personel in that Squad we have went stale in forward options and I think Forrest is a good option.

Only my opinion👍

[0Neils40yarder]

7 hours ago, ProudScot said:

It’s laughable when folk look down on the MLS or Saudi leagues etc.

Our league is amateurish beyond belief from the running of it to the majority of the standard. If you take the old firm and the money they bring out, we’re left with the league of Ireland type league

Ma baws