James Forrest....

[Big Ramy 1314]

Forrest starting today and causing Hearts all sorts of problems down the left hand side...

[BryanBlessed]

1 hour ago, Big Ramy 1314 said:

Forrest starting today and causing Hearts all sorts of problems down the left hand side...

I thought he did quite well but he cut inside too much and played a square ball. Certainly worthy of a place in the squad if he continues his form.

[mccaughey85]

On 5/3/2024 at 1:48 PM, kwhitelaw said:

On 5/2/2024 at 11:13 PM, mccaughey85 said:

You ever seen some of the defending in the spl? It's comical at times. 

Not to mention how poor some of the other aspects are like fitness and technique are.

Look how poor the non old firm teams do in Europe. 

There's comical defending in every league, go watch some MLS highlights you'll find plenty there too.  The Non OF teams in Europe is such an easy stick to beat us with and actually quite unfair.  Many, many times Scottish teams have their first competitive game of the season in Europe and often against sides mid-way through their own seasons. Straight away they're at a disadvantage especially if there's been managerial changes and/or squad overhauls pre season.  Yes there's been some shockers, but those are often a result of Scottish sides underestimating other sides and are played on by the media and blown out of proportion to sell newspapers/gain clicks.  Both Hearts and Aberdeen have recently had fairly respectful performances in the Europa Conference so it shows we can actually compete with leagues similar in stature.

Regardless of wether a country has had an easier path they can still be of similar standard to us. Countries like USA, Canada and mexico had MLS players. Cameroon, Uruguay and Costa rica also.

There's heaps of countries that didn't qualify who are of similar standard to us who rely on MLS players as well. 

There's probably dozens of established international footballers in the MLS. How many established internationals play in the spl? If you take out the old firm there's probably only a handful. Even with the old firm theres probably less than 15.

You're either missing my point or avoiding it.  If we didn't have players in form for OF/EPL/EC teams then obviously we'd call up MLS based players, but we do and many of these countries only have players playing in the MLS as their highest level.  Northern Ireland and Wales both had EFL1 players in their squads for Euro 16 and the World Cup for Wales,  but that doesn't make that league spectacular.

Why are you using Ramirez at Aberdeen. His stats were hardly stellar in the MLS and he did reasonably well at Aberdeen. 

Well you brought him up first 😂.  His stats in the MLS were actually quite good, but he faded away here after a bright start.  He went straight back to the MLS and guess what?  He won it with Columbus Crew as one of their top scorers. 

You have pulled out a couple of guys that haven't made the transition from MLS to the spl as an example of why the spl is better. Thats hardly a very conclusive. Also there's guys like Stuart Findlay and Gary Mackay Steven who struggled in the MLS after being relatively successful in the spl. 

No disrespect but you've hardly provided any rock solid evidence yourself.  I'll take your word on Findlay but I don't remember him being labelled as a flop out there, he started quite a few games for Philadelphia.  As for GMS, that's just not true, he was involved in many games for NY City both starting and from the bench at a time when they paired with Man City and were filling the squad with the likes of Pirlo, Lampard and David Villa.  Think they were even MLS Champions when he was there, but don't quote me on that.

I would rather go by how many established international footballers each league has playing or by what I see with my own eyes in terms of technique and tempo of games.

Also what guys have struggled in the spl and went onto be stars in the MLS? Morgans the only one I can think of and even he had some decent performances for Celtic. Also Morgan didn't suddenly start doing well once he moved to the MLS. It's taken him a couple seasons at least to establish himself as a good player there.

Morgan was Inter Miami's top scorer in his first season out there.  Gauld struggled when he came back to Scotland and left to become a Vancouver legend.  James Sands, (remember him Rangers fans?) is doing well.  I've already mentioned Ramirez. Giakoumakis ex Celtic has taken one season to surpass his goal tally from 2 seasons at Celtic.

End of the day the MLS isn't a great standard but the idea that we can overlook players from there is daft when loads of similar level nations pick players from there.

As I said in my last post I'm not against calling these guys up if there's no better option but we do have better options.

And if you think we are vastly superior to Canada or USA then go take a look at their squads and get back to me. This isn't the 80s or 90s anymore.

WTF?  What's your point here?  Not once did I mention anything about those two countries.  Since you brought them up lets look at them for talking's sake.  The last US squad had a grand total of 2 MLS based players, their 3rd choice GK and one 8 defenders.  Every other player is based in one of Europe tops leagues with 2 in the English Championship so obviously they're a stronger side.

Canada's last squad was half MLS, half European based from mostly top leagues and the English Championship and are currently ranked lower than us, but if both Scotland and Canada's strongest 11 went head to head I'd be comfortable in predicting a Scotland win.

I wasn't arguing that the MLS was good defensively. I was pointing out that both leagues are pretty poor defensively.

Whatever way you spin it non old firm teams have been awful in Europe. Only reason hearts and Aberdeen got European group football is because the conference league was created and even then they couldn't get out of the groups against very poor/average teams.

What countries that I listed have MLS players as their highest level?

Also what players from league 1 have been established internationals for Wales? 

I was talking about established international players not guys who make the squad every now and again.

The difference between league 1 and MLS is that the MLS has dozens of established(over 20 or 30 caps) international players some of which play regularly for decent/good international teams.

Christian Ramirez stats are pretty similar in both the MLS and spl. Fair play he won it with Columbus crew but overall he's a pretty average striker in both leagues.

Morgan's was inter Miamis top scorer with 5 goals in his first season?

I will take your word for it.

Either way he was quite average at inter Miami. He's been much better  at red bull. Why that is could be a number of reasons.

Gauld was a proven success in Scotland at Dundee united and had done well in the Portuguese top flight before he went to the MLS. Using his brief stint at Hibs as proof he was useless in the spl is daft. Kris Boyd scored 7 in 27 for the Portland timbers at the age of 28/29. That's the greatest spl scorer ever struggling in the MLS.

Kenny miller's stats are pretty average in the MLS as well.

Giakoumakis goals per minutes stats are pretty similar in both leagues. He was a sub most games at Celtic. In his first season at celtic he had a goal every 86mins. 

As I said theres examples of guys going either direction and doing well or struggling. It doesn't prove much.

Whatever way you spin it the USA and Canada both use MLS players. Just because the last squad picked didn't include many doesn't mean much. There's injuries and calls offs etc. 

As I said lots of decent international teams rely on MLS players. Lots of south American teams have MLS players as well. The spl outside of the old firm has very little international players. 

You would be comfortable in us beating Canada?

We just lost to northern Ireland? 

Not sure how long you have been following Scotland but being confident that we would beat Canada is unwise to say the least. 

[adamntg]

On 5/4/2024 at 1:43 AM, Big Ramy 1314 said:

Did Karamoko Dembele not commit to engerland?

He swapped back and forward.  Plays with neither now. 
 

You would think Ivory Coast is quite likely though. 

[kwhitelaw]

2 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

I wasn't arguing that the MLS was good defensively. I was pointing out that both leagues are pretty poor defensively.

Whatever way you spin it non old firm teams have been awful in Europe. Only reason hearts and Aberdeen got European group football is because the conference league was created and even then they couldn't get out of the groups against very poor/average teams.

What countries that I listed have MLS players as their highest level?

Also what players from league 1 have been established internationals for Wales? 

I was talking about established international players not guys who make the squad every now and again.

The difference between league 1 and MLS is that the MLS has dozens of established(over 20 or 30 caps) international players some of which play regularly for decent/good international teams.

Christian Ramirez stats are pretty similar in both the MLS and spl. Fair play he won it with Columbus crew but overall he's a pretty average striker in both leagues.

Morgan's was inter Miamis top scorer with 5 goals in his first season?

I will take your word for it.

Either way he was quite average at inter Miami. He's been much better  at red bull. Why that is could be a number of reasons.

Gauld was a proven success in Scotland at Dundee united and had done well in the Portuguese top flight before he went to the MLS. Using his brief stint at Hibs as proof he was useless in the spl is daft. Kris Boyd scored 7 in 27 for the Portland timbers at the age of 28/29. That's the greatest spl scorer ever struggling in the MLS.

Kenny miller's stats are pretty average in the MLS as well.

Giakoumakis goals per minutes stats are pretty similar in both leagues. He was a sub most games at Celtic. In his first season at celtic he had a goal every 86mins. 

As I said theres examples of guys going either direction and doing well or struggling. It doesn't prove much.

Whatever way you spin it the USA and Canada both use MLS players. Just because the last squad picked didn't include many doesn't mean much. There's injuries and calls offs etc. 

As I said lots of decent international teams rely on MLS players. Lots of south American teams have MLS players as well. The spl outside of the old firm has very little international players. 

You would be comfortable in us beating Canada?

We just lost to northern Ireland? 

Not sure how long you have been following Scotland but being confident that we would beat Canada is unwise to say the least. 

Fair enough, the two leagues these days are probably on a fairly even level and the MLS will no doubt become a much better league with the money there.  We've deviated away from the original point though which was are Gauld and/or Morgan playing at a high enough level to be chosen ahead of Fraser or Forrest?  I'd say definitely not for Fraser and there's arguments to be made for Forrest.  His international experience probably edges it for me, but I totally understand peoples views that his past performances weren't great overall and he's hardly played this season.

If I had to choose between Gauld or Morgan over anyone else in the SPFL I'd choose Gauld or Morgan.  

Aye believe it or not Morgan was Miami's top scorer that year. They did have a really poor season but he was one of the few bright parts.

Yes I would be confident in us beating Canada.  Look at what I said.  Did our strongest starting 11 play against Northern Ireland in a competitive game?  No.

I'm not sure what how long supporting Scotland has to do with anything (31 years if it matters) but if the team that started against and beat Spain (which potentially could still line up at the Euros) played like that against Canada's best team, I'm confident we would win.

[mccaughey85]

1 hour ago, kwhitelaw said:

Fair enough, the two leagues these days are probably on a fairly even level and the MLS will no doubt become a much better league with the money there.  We've deviated away from the original point though which was are Gauld and/or Morgan playing at a high enough level to be chosen ahead of Fraser or Forrest?  I'd say definitely not for Fraser and there's arguments to be made for Forrest.  His international experience probably edges it for me, but I totally understand peoples views that his past performances weren't great overall and he's hardly played this season.

If I had to choose between Gauld or Morgan over anyone else in the SPFL I'd choose Gauld or Morgan.  

Aye believe it or not Morgan was Miami's top scorer that year. They did have a really poor season but he was one of the few bright parts.

Yes I would be confident in us beating Canada.  Look at what I said.  Did our strongest starting 11 play against Northern Ireland in a competitive game?  No.

I'm not sure what how long supporting Scotland has to do with anything (31 years if it matters) but if the team that started against and beat Spain (which potentially could still line up at the Euros) played like that against Canada's best team, I'm confident we would win.

Forrest had years worth of caps for Scotland and only played well in maybe 4 or 5 max and thats probably being kind. 

Personally I would rather give Gauld or Morgan a chance but I am not completely against Forrest being called up again.

Regardless of wether our strongest team starts it's never best to assume we will beat anyone unless its Moldova or Estonia and even then that's not always a certainty.

You last statement is all ifs and buts. If we play our strongest team and if we play well then yes we should be beating Canada but that's not how football works. Playing well is something Scotland doesn't always do. 

On paper we should still be beating northern Ireland with the team we put out but we didn't. We should also be beating Georgia away if you compare the line ups but we didn't.

I am surprised after 31 years of following Scotland that you are so confident of beating a team like Canada. Personally I never take anything for granted and I usually assume that every game against semi decent opposition will be tough regardless of wether our best team is playing or not.

[Andy of Lochcarron]

Forrest plays well only  occasionally, mostly ineffectual - no chance i would want him in squad

[vanderark14]

1 hour ago, mccaughey85 said:

Forrest had years worth of caps for Scotland and only played well in maybe 4 or 5 max and thats probably being kind. 

Personally I would rather give Gauld or Morgan a chance but I am not completely against Forrest being called up again.

Regardless of wether our strongest team starts it's never best to assume we will beat anyone unless its Moldova or Estonia and even then that's not always a certainty.

You last statement is all ifs and buts. If we play our strongest team and if we play well then yes we should be beating Canada but that's not how football works. Playing well is something Scotland doesn't always do. 

On paper we should still be beating northern Ireland with the team we put out but we didn't. We should also be beating Georgia away if you compare the line ups but we didn't.

I am surprised after 31 years of following Scotland that you are so confident of beating a team like Canada. Personally I never take anything for granted and I usually assume that every game against semi decent opposition will be tough regardless of wether our best team is playing or not.

Being confident of a win is not talking anything for granted. We should be confident in beating canada with this current team. 

[mccaughey85]

14 minutes ago, vanderark14 said:

Being confident of a win is not talking anything for granted. We should be confident in beating canada with this current team. 

Really?

They have players playing for Bayern, inter and Porto. Their main striker has 69 goals in 143 apps for Lille and has won the league with them.

We line up with a strikers who play in the English championship and we often line up with 3 English championship players. 

I would expect us to beat them more than they beat us but being confident of beating them is not something I ever feel when Scotland plays any half decent opposition. 

Surprised anyone feels any different. Where you confident of beating Georgia away?

What about northern Ireland?

What about the rep of Ireland 3 nil game?

I believed we would win those games but we didn't. 

[vanderark14]

2 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

Really?

They have players playing for Bayern, inter and Porto. Their main striker has 69 goals in 143 apps for Lille and has won the league with them.

We line up with a strikers who play in the English championship and we often line up with 3 English championship players. 

I would expect us to beat them more than they beat us but being confident of beating them is not something I ever feel when Scotland plays any half decent opposition. 

Surprised anyone feels any different. Where you confident of beating Georgia away?

What about northern Ireland?

What about the rep of Ireland 3 nil game?

I believed we would win those games but we didn't. 

Yes, really.

[todd]

15 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

Really?

They have players playing for Bayern, inter and Porto. Their main striker has 69 goals in 143 apps for Lille and has won the league with them.

We line up with a strikers who play in the English championship and we often line up with 3 English championship players. 

I would expect us to beat them more than they beat us but being confident of beating them is not something I ever feel when Scotland plays any half decent opposition. 

Surprised anyone feels any different. Where you confident of beating Georgia away?

What about northern Ireland?

What about the rep of Ireland 3 nil game?

I believed we would win those games but we didn't. 

So your counter argument is that we should never be confident of winning a game. Ever?

[ProudScot]

23 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

I wasn't arguing that the MLS was good defensively. I was pointing out that both leagues are pretty poor defensively.

Whatever way you spin it non old firm teams have been awful in Europe. Only reason hearts and Aberdeen got European group football is because the conference league was created and even then they couldn't get out of the groups against very poor/average teams.

What countries that I listed have MLS players as their highest level?

Also what players from league 1 have been established internationals for Wales? 

I was talking about established international players not guys who make the squad every now and again.

The difference between league 1 and MLS is that the MLS has dozens of established(over 20 or 30 caps) international players some of which play regularly for decent/good international teams.

Christian Ramirez stats are pretty similar in both the MLS and spl. Fair play he won it with Columbus crew but overall he's a pretty average striker in both leagues.

Morgan's was inter Miamis top scorer with 5 goals in his first season?

I will take your word for it.

Either way he was quite average at inter Miami. He's been much better  at red bull. Why that is could be a number of reasons.

Gauld was a proven success in Scotland at Dundee united and had done well in the Portuguese top flight before he went to the MLS. Using his brief stint at Hibs as proof he was useless in the spl is daft. Kris Boyd scored 7 in 27 for the Portland timbers at the age of 28/29. That's the greatest spl scorer ever struggling in the MLS.

Kenny miller's stats are pretty average in the MLS as well.

Giakoumakis goals per minutes stats are pretty similar in both leagues. He was a sub most games at Celtic. In his first season at celtic he had a goal every 86mins. 

As I said theres examples of guys going either direction and doing well or struggling. It doesn't prove much.

Whatever way you spin it the USA and Canada both use MLS players. Just because the last squad picked didn't include many doesn't mean much. There's injuries and calls offs etc. 

As I said lots of decent international teams rely on MLS players. Lots of south American teams have MLS players as well. The spl outside of the old firm has very little international players. 

You would be comfortable in us beating Canada?

We just lost to northern Ireland? 

Not sure how long you have been following Scotland but being confident that we would beat Canada is unwise to say the least. 

Good post.

It’s very amusing when people use Gaulds brief spell at Hibs years ago as a benchmark for his overall ability.

Harry Kane was rubbish on loan in the championship so obviously he’s still rubbish now. 

[csinclair]

Just a note on Morgan's stats at Miami, if it was when Neville was in charge then he regularly played him as a wing back to accommodate other players. Watched some of their games and thought he looked wasted there and it's shown with his form at Red Bulls.

[mccaughey85]

2 hours ago, todd said:

So your counter argument is that we should never be confident of winning a game. Ever?

Depends what being confident means. I go into games against Georgia and Northern Ireland believing that we should win, especially at home but I am never hugely confident and often expect that we might have an off day. I don't understand how anyone can be really confident having watched Scotland this past 20 plus years. 

I don't see how ppl could be massively confident of beating Canada either. On paper I would say they are a slight cut above the likes of Georgia and Northern Ireland. 

Their squad isn't massively behind ours in terms quality either. I find ppl in here slightly delusional when it comes to comparisons with other countries.

If a Canadian or any other nationality looked at our first team in recent matches he would see a goalkeeper who plays for Norwich in the championship, a championship striker who doesn't really score for a rubbish QPR side and centre back who plays for an average Watford team. 

Fair enough we have some good talent in our side as well but then so do other nations that are a similar level.

As I said before it depends on what being confident means. I would expect us to beat Canada more than they beat us but being really confident is not something I ever feel with Scotland unless we play teams like Estonia or Malta.

Edited May 8 by mccaughey85