Indyref 2 (2)

[Caledonian Craig]

9 minutes ago, Alibi said:

Regarding the polling figures, bear in mind that the policies of each party are not really under detailed scrutiny at the moment as there's no campaigning going on.  Labour's policies (basically handed down from London) include: pro brexit, anti indy or even a referendum, anti freedom of movement, anti single market or customs union, anti immigration, want to bring back tuition fees, prescription charges, NHS privatisation, bridge tolls, hospital parking charges - need I go on, fill in any blanks yourself.  Labour have pretty much moved to where the Tories were about 7 years ago.  Imagine what will happens to Anus Sarwar when he has to defend their manifesto in a head to head televised election debate.  I think already there are signs of the SNP vote share, affected by the performative theatre of Police Scotland and their "investigation" backed up by intense media coverage and distortion, starting to recover.  I would be surprised if Labour in Scotland would win an election on the basis of Sir Starmer's ideas which are in direct opposition to what Scotland votes for.  If what they are offering is acceptable to a majority of the people of Scotland then fuck them, they deserve all they would get.  There is still time to turn things round - the problem is that Yousaf and his clique of Sturgeon's cast off dullards aren't listening and don't have the imagination to do anything about it.  any MP or MSP talking about seeking extra devolved powers can do one - that's not the aim of an independence party when it's clear as daylight that WM is intent on blocking everything and anything.  We're in a prison and it's time we had a jailbreak.  That should be the absolute priority.

I really cannot disagree with any of that.

[aaid]

1 hour ago, Alibi said:

Regarding the polling figures, bear in mind that the policies of each party are not really under detailed scrutiny at the moment as there's no campaigning going on.  Labour's policies (basically handed down from London) include: pro brexit, anti indy or even a referendum, anti freedom of movement, anti single market or customs union, anti immigration, want to bring back tuition fees, prescription charges, NHS privatisation, bridge tolls, hospital parking charges - need I go on, fill in any blanks yourself.  Labour have pretty much moved to where the Tories were about 7 years ago.  Imagine what will happens to Anus Sarwar when he has to defend their manifesto in a head to head televised election debate.  I think already there are signs of the SNP vote share, affected by the performative theatre of Police Scotland and their "investigation" backed up by intense media coverage and distortion, starting to recover.  I would be surprised if Labour in Scotland would win an election on the basis of Sir Starmer's ideas which are in direct opposition to what Scotland votes for.  If what they are offering is acceptable to a majority of the people of Scotland then fuck them, they deserve all they would get.  There is still time to turn things round - the problem is that Yousaf and his clique of Sturgeon's cast off dullards aren't listening and don't have the imagination to do anything about it.  any MP or MSP talking about seeking extra devolved powers can do one - that's not the aim of an independence party when it's clear as daylight that WM is intent on blocking everything and anything.  We're in a prison and it's time we had a jailbreak.  That should be the absolute priority.

If you examine the polling figures in Scotland - different story for England - then Labour are not picking up voters - at least not from the SNP - rather there are SNP voters which are currently indicating “Don’t Know”, that feeds into a slightly false picture when you look at headline numbers.  Where Labour are making headway is in the Unionist base, and that reflects to an extent what is happening in England. 

As you said, there’s no debate or discussion over policy and Labour are currently speaking differently in Scotland as in England and thinking that will stand up.

[Orraloon]

1 hour ago, Alibi said:

Regarding the polling figures, bear in mind that the policies of each party are not really under detailed scrutiny at the moment as there's no campaigning going on.  Labour's policies (basically handed down from London) include: pro brexit, anti indy or even a referendum, anti freedom of movement, anti single market or customs union, anti immigration, want to bring back tuition fees, prescription charges, NHS privatisation, bridge tolls, hospital parking charges - need I go on, fill in any blanks yourself.  Labour have pretty much moved to where the Tories were about 7 years ago.  Imagine what will happens to Anus Sarwar when he has to defend their manifesto in a head to head televised election debate.  I think already there are signs of the SNP vote share, affected by the performative theatre of Police Scotland and their "investigation" backed up by intense media coverage and distortion, starting to recover.  I would be surprised if Labour in Scotland would win an election on the basis of Sir Starmer's ideas which are in direct opposition to what Scotland votes for.  If what they are offering is acceptable to a majority of the people of Scotland then fuck them, they deserve all they would get.  There is still time to turn things round - the problem is that Yousaf and his clique of Sturgeon's cast off dullards aren't listening and don't have the imagination to do anything about it.  any MP or MSP talking about seeking extra devolved powers can do one - that's not the aim of an independence party when it's clear as daylight that WM is intent on blocking everything and anything.  We're in a prison and it's time we had a jailbreak.  That should be the absolute priority.

Do you think those things will be in their manifesto?

[Ally Bongo]

Let’s start with what we know.

The SNP tell us that independence support is currently at 53%.

They tell us that most Scots want a referendum within the next year:

And we know that it’s absolutely unequivocally possible for the SNP and Greens to trigger a Holyrood election which would serve as a de facto referendum not only within a year, but within weeks. Scots could entirely realistically go to the polls this August or September, or even on the date Nicola Sturgeon promised less than a year ago.

So why are the SNP choosing this of all moments to give up?

Last night the party put forward as its representative on BBC Scotland’s Debate Night programme Ben Macpherson – an MSP who has already said that independence is not achievable in the short or medium term, perhaps not for “decades”, and that the SNP should “go down a gear” in its pursuit of its core aim.

Macpherson made those comments months ago, his views are well known, so his selection as the SNP’s voice on the panel is a clear endorsement from the leadership. Everything he said was effectively coming straight from Humza Yousaf. So let’s break it down line-by-line and translate it:

“The challenge, actually, in this next chapter of devolution – so we’ve had about 25 years, we’re going into the next one – is how we move beyond the polarisation that has been perpetuated by different perspectives in our politics.”

That might sound like empty waffling politician boilerplate, but if you listen it’s actually really important. Firstly he implies that he’s talking about another 25 years of devolution (entirely in keeping with his comments from March). Secondly he wants to “move beyond polarisation” and clearly there’s nothing more polarising than a vote on independence, which has only two sides.

And actually think about where’s the common ground? Where’s the common ground on the constitution where we can move forward?”

There’s only one place where there’s political common ground on the constitution in Scotland – devolution.

“How do political parties work better together?”

“Better together”? That’s a familiar-sounding phrase. Can’t quite place it.

“I also think, sir, with all due respect, the way you characterised your question – focusing on the negative, not acknowledging the fact that we have many benefits here in Scotland that have been delivered by devolution – is part of our collective problem.”

Jeez mate, you love devolution, we get it.

“Rather than criticising each other, let’s be constructive. Rather than being tribal, let’s work together on how we move forward.”

Does this bleating milksop know how politics works? Tribalism is its entire foundation. The parties who aren’t in power are called “the opposition”, not “the co-operators”. Their entire objective is to kick the party in power out and take its place.

It could not possibly be any clearer that Ben Macpherson is a devolutionist. He doesn’t want independence, he just wants “MORE independence”, ie devolution.

He doesn’t want to break up the UK, he wants it to be “a different kind of united”, a “united federation”, not with actual autonomy for Scotland but just a “sense of” it.

In short, readers, he’s Gordon Brown.

As such Macpherson belongs in the Labour Party, and his comments could be seen as softening up SNP supporters for the idea of a pact with Scottish Labour in the next administration, since current polls suggest that while the SNP will still be narrowly the largest party, even with the support of the Greens on what looks like a wildly over-optimistic 17 seats they’ll be short of a majority.

Labour would of course demand as a condition that the SNP abandon all pursuit of indy. But it’s an all too plausible idea, and it explains why the party is so desperate to keep kicking its independence strategy down the road for months and years at a time, so they can limp to 2024/6 and then say “Oh well, indy majority gone, we have simply no choice but to do a deal with Labour for a wee bit more devolution”.

Even some of the diehard carrot-munchers in the party membership are starting to smell what’s going on, and they don’t like it. And for The National to be quoting SNP sources in such strong terms really is a big red flag, if you’ll forgive the term.

We mean to say, dear God in heaven and all the little angels, even Pete Wishart and the Aberdeen Independence Movement now back the Wings strategy.

A few weeks ago Michael Gove – of all people – predicted that the SNP was about to effectively rebrand itself as a devo-max party.

There are no reasonable grounds on which to dispute that analysis. Ben Macpherson all but spelled it out in neon lights last night.

And having blown their big moment by electing the useless Humza Yousaf in March, SNP members are now on their last last chance to save the one-time party of independence. If they back the capitulation policy in Dundee later this month, the SNP will become just a third cheek of the Unionist arse. Let’s hope they wake up in time.

[aaid]

More Wings pish. 

[Ally Bongo]

24 minutes ago, aaid said:

More Wings pish. 

Only if you are blinkered and still refuse to see what is happening - even now

 

[aaid]

4 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

Only if you are blinkered and still refuse to see what is happening - even now

 

Who funds him?  He hasn’t had a fundraiser for years and he lost an expensive court case.

[Ally Bongo]

25 minutes ago, aaid said:

Who funds him?  He hasn’t had a fundraiser for years and he lost an expensive court case.

Address the message - not the messenger

[brant grebner]

Me/I don’t understand Wings’ vile racist and misogynistic criticism of the SNP.

 

What’s he/him trying to say?

 

That the SNP won’t deliver independence and have no will to even attempt it?

 

Sounds vile, far-fetched, misogynistic and racist to me/I.

 

He/him can only be a vile racist and misogynistic British spy.

 

We/Us are having our referendum on October 19th 2023, and there is nothing that vile misogynistic racists like Wings or the racist misogynistic vile Alex Salmond or the vile racist Albist misogynists can say or do it about it.

 

We/Us have known from the outset that the vile misogynist racist Alba party are nothing but a front run by the vile racist misogynist Vladimir Putin puppet Alex Salmond and the Alba Nazis, which is why Nicola Sturgeon was correct to denounce they/them from the outset when they/them came up with them/their vile racist and misogynist plan for a supermajority.

 

Nicola’s plan was the right one. It is still the right one. It is the only one. It is the only one. It’s is the only one and it is right because it is Nicola’s plan.

 

The vile hate-filled misogynistic racist criticism in the far-right BBC and Murdoch press is the work of the misogynistic Albist Russians and vile Albist MI5 racists to stop Scotland from being free.

 

Unlike the good moral people at GCHQ that ran the party leadership election, these misogynistic vile bigoted Albist Russian MI5 racists are racist and bigoted and vile and misogynistic MI5 Russian Albists.

 

They/them hate the best of Scotch culture - Lulu and Mrs Brown’s Boys.

 

Yes, the GRR and the DRS have had teething problems, but these were mainly caused by vile misogynistic racist bigots like Joanna Cherry and Kemi Badenoch.

 

The SNP know what to do to win back voters: more progressive policies from the brains of Patrick Harvie and Lorna Slater.

 

I cannot foresee any problems or opposition to the assisted killing bill we have coming up next.

 

Anyone who opposes it/that is Albist, ablist, vile, bigoted and hateful.

 

And Misogynistic.

 

And probably racist too.

 

They/them should resign.

 

This is getting on with the day job and so is making sure we/us live up to the words of Hamish Henderson “So come all ye at hame wi devolution”.

 

Personally Me/I would like to see that song replaced with “The Red Flag” so we/us are able to show solidarity with the Labour Party to make sure all the fake yes/nawbags that joined after 19/09/2014 are able to feel like they/them have a safe space in the house they’ve been squatting in for the last 8 a half years.

[ParisInAKilt]

https://www.thenational.scot/news/23574138.snp-sources-brand-independence-convention-moronic/

An Indy conference? Sounds grandiose when you don’t have a coherent strategy after all these years. 

[ParisInAKilt]

48 minutes ago, brant grebner said:

Me/I don’t understand Wings’ vile racist and misogynistic criticism of the SNP.

 

What’s he/him trying to say?

 

That the SNP won’t deliver independence and have no will to even attempt it?

 

Sounds vile, far-fetched, misogynistic and racist to me/I.

 

He/him can only be a vile racist and misogynistic British spy.

 

We/Us are having our referendum on October 19th 2023, and there is nothing that vile misogynistic racists like Wings or the racist misogynistic vile Alex Salmond or the vile racist Albist misogynists can say or do it about it.

 

We/Us have known from the outset that the vile misogynist racist Alba party are nothing but a front run by the vile racist misogynist Vladimir Putin puppet Alex Salmond and the Alba Nazis, which is why Nicola Sturgeon was correct to denounce they/them from the outset when they/them came up with them/their vile racist and misogynist plan for a supermajority.

 

Nicola’s plan was the right one. It is still the right one. It is the only one. It is the only one. It’s is the only one and it is right because it is Nicola’s plan.

 

The vile hate-filled misogynistic racist criticism in the far-right BBC and Murdoch press is the work of the misogynistic Albist Russians and vile Albist MI5 racists to stop Scotland from being free.

 

Unlike the good moral people at GCHQ that ran the party leadership election, these misogynistic vile bigoted Albist Russian MI5 racists are racist and bigoted and vile and misogynistic MI5 Russian Albists.

 

They/them hate the best of Scotch culture - Lulu and Mrs Brown’s Boys.

 

Yes, the GRR and the DRS have had teething problems, but these were mainly caused by vile misogynistic racist bigots like Joanna Cherry and Kemi Badenoch.

 

The SNP know what to do to win back voters: more progressive policies from the brains of Patrick Harvie and Lorna Slater.

 

I cannot foresee any problems or opposition to the assisted killing bill we have coming up next.

 

Anyone who opposes it/that is Albist, ablist, vile, bigoted and hateful.

 

And Misogynistic.

 

And probably racist too.

 

They/them should resign.

 

This is getting on with the day job and so is making sure we/us live up to the words of Hamish Henderson “So come all ye at hame wi devolution”.

 

Personally Me/I would like to see that song replaced with “The Red Flag” so we/us are able to show solidarity with the Labour Party to make sure all the fake yes/nawbags that joined after 19/09/2014 are able to feel like they/them have a safe space in the house they’ve been squatting in for the last 8 a half years.

Hopefully as progressive as the Canadian one, might solve the climate change / poverty issues ..

[Caledonian Craig]

11 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said:

https://www.thenational.scot/news/23574138.snp-sources-brand-independence-convention-moronic/

An Indy conference? Sounds grandiose when you don’t have a coherent strategy after all these years. 

It keeps the thought of independence alive and in people's minds and shows unionists they are wrong to presume Scotland has zero interest in independence.

And, by the way, no Scot political or otherwise, has had a coherent strategy on independence. Why? Because in this union the only route to getting a say is requesting a Section 30 order from Westminster and we know how that always ends.  

Edited June 8, 2023 by Caledonian Craig

[Ally Bongo]

4 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

It keeps the thought of independence alive and in people's minds and shows unionists they are wrong to presume Scotland has zero interest in independence.

And, by the way, no Scot political or otherwise, has had a coherent strategy on independence. Why? Because in this union the only route to getting a say is requesting a Section 30 order from Westminster and we know how that always ends.  

At this stage of the debate, "keeping the thought of Independence alive and in people's minds" whilst doing fuck all makes a mockery of the SNP - which this facade does

There is a coherent strategy - one which the SNP will not touch under the current leadership in a million years because clearly Independence takes a back seat to the gravy train

https://archive.is/2023.06.06-101000/https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/scotland/2023/06/alex-salmond-bids-to-disrupt-labour-with-pro-independence-electoral-pact

[Caledonian Craig]

5 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

At this stage of the debate, "keeping the thought of Independence alive and in people's minds" whilst doing fuck all makes a mockery of the SNP - which this facade does

There is a coherent strategy - one which the SNP will not touch under the current leadership in a million years because clearly Independence takes a back seat to the gravy train

https://archive.is/2023.06.06-101000/https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/scotland/2023/06/alex-salmond-bids-to-disrupt-labour-with-pro-independence-electoral-pact

That is not a plan to getting independence. It is a way to rally around independent backing parties but in no way shape or form does it get us independence. The only way that happens is we get a say through Section 30 being granted.

By the way I do back that plan linked but like I say it does not get us independence.

[PapofGlencoe]

Not sure the swing vote of the general public scrutinise much manifestos when making decisions.  Momentum and personalities matter more.  And can't see snp having either any time soon the way things are going.

I can see with my own eyes my peer group don't actually like the SNP anymore even though they're generally pro independence.  Labour are going to win a lot of seats.  If your view is the SNP winning most seats is a win then we've relegated "the cause" to mediocre politics, not world events.

What an arse of it they've made bringing this court case without the balls to progress to a defacto vote off the back of it.  Weak weak weak. 

[Caledonian Craig]

5 hours ago, PapofGlencoe said:

 

What an arse of it they've made bringing this court case without the balls to progress to a defacto vote off the back of it.  Weak weak weak. 

Who is actually to blame for that though? NS wanted that but there was apathy from within her party and (look back to the posts) apathy on here towards a Defacto Referendum and generally apathy nationwide to the idea.

[aaid]

4 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Who is actually to blame for that though? NS wanted that but there was apathy from within her party and (look back to the posts) apathy on here towards a Defacto Referendum and generally apathy nationwide to the idea.

Apart from the nutjobs who wanted them to crash Holyrood and force an immediate general election.  Call me cynical but a large proportion of those people were in the Alba camp, a party that’s so far out in the cold they’re in Boris Johnson’s freezer.  A pretty obvious ruse to try and get some seats somewhere.  

[aaid]

13 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

At this stage of the debate, "keeping the thought of Independence alive and in people's minds" whilst doing fuck all makes a mockery of the SNP - which this facade does

There is a coherent strategy - one which the SNP will not touch under the current leadership in a million years because clearly Independence takes a back seat to the gravy train

https://archive.is/2023.06.06-101000/https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/scotland/2023/06/alex-salmond-bids-to-disrupt-labour-with-pro-independence-electoral-pact

How many seats is Alex Salmond expecting for his 2%?

[Caledonian Craig]

I would still want to see a Defacto Referendum. Every opportunity going we should be using to press for independence rather than meekly graze in a field like sheep.

[Ally Bongo]

12 minutes ago, aaid said:

How many seats is Alex Salmond expecting for his 2%?

Did you read the article ?

None that the SNP currently hold for starters & in those that they don't the SNP still get the lion's share

I'd imagine 2 max - i.e those that Alba already hold through defection from the SNP

[Caledonian Craig]

8 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

Did you read the article ?

None that the SNP currently hold for starters & in those that they don't the SNP still get the lion's share

I'd imagine 2 max - i.e those that Alba already hold through defection from the SNP

I am up for a unified front. Not making such a stand is akin to Britain refusing the US assistance in WW2 ......stupid and inviting defeat.

[Ally Bongo]

The National (the supposed pro-Independence) newspaper today runs with a story;

"How can i sign a petition to remove Margaret Ferrier as my MP"

Presumably sanctioned by the SNP who know it's more than likely she will be replaced by a Unionist

Edit - they have now deleted the online story however the evidence that they ran it is there

https://www.thenational.scot/news/23578282.margaret-ferrier-can-sign-petition-remove-mp/

Edited June 9, 2023 by Ally Bongo

[hampden_loon2878]

3 hours ago, aaid said:

How many seats is Alex Salmond expecting for his 2%?

6-10 is not out the question 

[Ally Bongo]

6 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

6-10 is not out the question 

LOL even i know that is out of the question

It's for the General Election - not a Holyrood election

 

[Orraloon]

2 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

The National (the supposed pro-Independence) newspaper today runs with a story;

"How can i sign a petition to remove Margaret Ferrier as my MP"

Presumably sanctioned by the SNP who know it's more than likely she will be replaced by a Unionist

Edit - they have now deleted the online story however the evidence that they ran it is there

https://www.thenational.scot/news/23578282.margaret-ferrier-can-sign-petition-remove-mp/

If I lived there I would sign it. Some things are more important than party politics. She deliberately put other people's lives at risk when folk in her position should have been setting an example.