1998 v 2021

[mccaughey85]

32 minutes ago, gkm_vancouver said:

I think I'll stick my neck out and say that the 2021 squad is better. Very difficult to compare because the 98 squad have finished their playing days and many of the current squad have just started. We haven't kicked a ball yet in this tourney and there are also 3 extra players. 

Comparing all players in each area:- goalies about equal; defence 21 squad slightly better with Robbo/Tierney making the difference; midfield 21 squad slightly better with more playing at a higher level; forwards 98 squad may have the slight edge with Gallacher but none of them scored the 2 goals we got in 98 and I think that there are potentially more players with goals  in them with the 21 squad.

I think we had better goalies back then, Leighton had been Aberdeen and man utd no. 1 back when Aberdeen were a top European team. Sullivan was also a decent epl keeper who spent most of his career there I think. 

Overall I would much rather have our defence from 98 than now. Left backs we are much better now but centre backs we had back then were much better. Guys like hendry and calderwood spent their careers in the English top flight and were regarded as very good at the level. David weir was also in that squad and we saw how well he did in his career. 

Midfield is about even, maybe the 21 squad edges it due to strength in depth. 

Upfront 98 edges it just. Gallacher had the season of his life in 97/98 but was probably on a par with Adams in terms of how many he scored most seasons. I reckon Adams could go on and be a good epl and international striker and will probably have a better strike rate than 9 goals in the 50 plus caps that Gallacher had.  Durie was decent and Jackson but I wouldn't say they were huge improvements on dykes and Nisbet. 

[gkm_vancouver]

30 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

I think we had better goalies back then, Leighton had been Aberdeen and man utd no. 1 back when Aberdeen were a top European team. Sullivan was also a decent epl keeper who spent most of his career there I think. 

Overall I would much rather have our defence from 98 than now. Left backs we are much better now but centre backs we had back then were much better. Guys like hendry and calderwood spent their careers in the English top flight and were regarded as very good at the level. David weir was also in that squad and we saw how well he did in his career. 

Midfield is about even, maybe the 21 squad edges it due to strength in depth. 

Upfront 98 edges it just. Gallacher had the season of his life in 97/98 but was probably on a par with Adams in terms of how many he scored most seasons. I reckon Adams could go on and be a good epl and international striker and will probably have a better strike rate than 9 goals in the 50 plus caps that Gallacher had.  Durie was decent and Jackson but I wouldn't say they were huge improvements on dykes and Nisbet. 

Aye but I still don't think you've taken into account my point that you now have the knowledge of the 98 squads complete career whereas the bulk of the current squad are only part way through or just beginning their careers. The EPL is now at a much higher standard than in 98 and there are 11 players in that squad either played or about to play at that level with a strong likelihood that Dykes, Christie will potentially join them. If we make a total hash of this tourney then I might change my mind but I think there is a great chance that many of our players will have a  great successful trophy winning career which will eclipse the 98 squad.

[Burj_Alba]

Feel free to trash the ratings but I have the first 11s for the first match exactly the same ( even if changes for Monday wont change the totals) As others have pointed out probably the 98 defence is stronger but we have much more going forward.

The big difference is the depth of the squad. Wee Craigie hardly made any subs in 98 ( McNamara was one of the few ) and many thought because of the lack of depth.  Compare with 2021 with likes of Fraser, Gilmour, Turnbull, Christie and I think that is the answer.

Leighton	8		Marshall	7
Burley	8		O'Donnell	6
Calderwood	7		Cooper	6
Hendry	9		Hendry	7
Weir	8		Tierney	9
Boyd	8		Robertson	9
Jackson	6		McGinn	9
Daily	6		McTominey	8
Lambert	8		McGregor	8
Collins	8		Armstrong	8
Gallagher	8		Dykes	7
Total	84		Total	84

[Taylor1996]

As much as I love the Euro 2020, the France 98 squad is superior. 

It's hard to tell, because back then it was only 22 players. We were also without Goram (didn't he walk out of the squad at  the last minute? If memory serves me right) and McCoist, who should've been included.

It was a 22 man squad in 98 and 26 for 2020 squad, so I'll go in the middle and make a 24 man squad.

France 98: 

Keepers: Leighton, Sullivan, Gould.

Defenders: Hendry, Boyd, Calderwood, Whyte, McNamara, Dailly, Weir, Burley, T.McKinley, Elliot.

Midfielders: Collins, Lambert, Gemmil, B.McKinley.

Strikers: Durie, Gallagher, Booth, Jackson, Donnelly. 

2020 squad:

Keepers: Gordon, Marshall, McLaughlin 

Defenders: Hendry, McKenna, Cooper, O'Donnell, Tierney, Robertson, Hanley, Gallagher, Patterson, Taylor

Midfielders: McTominay, McGregor, Gilmour, Turnbull, Armstrong, McGinn, Christie, Fleck.

Strikers: Adams, Dykes, Nisbet, Forrest, Fraser

98/2020 squad:

Keepers: Leighton, Sullivan, Marshall 

Defenders: C.Hendry, Calderwood, Boyd, McNamara, Weir, Whyte, Tierney, Robertson, Cooper

Midfielders: Lambert, Collins, Gilmour, McTominay, Burley, McGinn, Christie 

Strikers: Gallagher, Durie, Jackson, Dykes, Fraser

98: 14 players.

2020: 10 players.

98/202 first XI:

 

                          Leighton

       Calderwood Hendry Tierney

 McNamara                          Robertson 

               Gilmour Lambert Collins

                        Durie  Gallacher

1996: 8

2020: 3

[Haggis_trap]

Good topic of conversation....
I would say both teams had two world class players ?

1998 - Collins and Lambert
2021 -Tierney and Robertson

1998 probably had a better defense - Scotland missed a Colin Hendry type brave-heart character for years.  Calderwood was a great partner for him.  Though 1998 was a bit light upfront with McCoist and Johnson both gone.   

For now I would say 1998 edges it for me...  However the history for class of 2021 is not yet written.  If they get past group stage they will be considered best Scotland team of all time.

 

[mccaughey85]

3 hours ago, gkm_vancouver said:

Aye but I still don't think you've taken into account my point that you now have the knowledge of the 98 squads complete career whereas the bulk of the current squad are only part way through or just beginning their careers. The EPL is now at a much higher standard than in 98 and there are 11 players in that squad either played or about to play at that level with a strong likelihood that Dykes, Christie will potentially join them. If we make a total hash of this tourney then I might change my mind but I think there is a great chance that many of our players will have a  great successful trophy winning career which will eclipse the 98 squad.

I am not talking about the potential of today's squad, I am just comparing today's squad as it is now with 98s squad. Also Tbf 98s key players were at the end of their international so we know how there career panned out. 

[mccaughey85]

2 hours ago, Burj_Alba said:

Feel free to trash the ratings but I have the first 11s for the first match exactly the same ( even if changes for Monday wont change the totals) As others have pointed out probably the 98 defence is stronger but we have much more going forward.

The big difference is the depth of the squad. Wee Craigie hardly made any subs in 98 ( McNamara was one of the few ) and many thought because of the lack of depth.  Compare with 2021 with likes of Fraser, Gilmour, Turnbull, Christie and I think that is the answer.

Leighton	8		Marshall	7
Burley	8		O'Donnell	6
Calderwood	7		Cooper	6
Hendry	9		Hendry	7
Weir	8		Tierney	9
Boyd	8		Robertson	9
Jackson	6		McGinn	9
Daily	6		McTominey	8
Lambert	8		McGregor	8
Collins	8		Armstrong	8
Gallagher	8		Dykes	7
Total	84		Total	84

That's a good way of judging it. I would change some of the ratings you have given. Calderwood would get an 8 and Collins would get a 9. I would maybe give lambert a 9 as well. 

I would lower the score of some of today's team. Jack hendry gets a 6. Armstrong and mcgregor get 7s.

That would leave it 86/87 to 81. 

[mccaughey85]

29 minutes ago, Haggis_trap said:

Good topic of conversation....
I would say both teams had two world class players ?

1998 - Collins and Lambert
2021 -Tierney and Robertson

1998 probably had a better defense - Scotland missed a Colin Hendry type brave-heart character for years.  Calderwood was a great partner for him.  Though 1998 was a bit light upfront with McCoist and Johnson both gone.   

For now I would say 1998 edges it for me...  However the history for class of 2021 is not yet written.  If they get past group stage they will be considered best Scotland team of all time.

 

Not sure Collins or lambert were considered world class back then tbh. 

 

[Haggis_trap]

[quote]Not sure Collins or lambert were considered world class back then tbh.  [/quote]

Lambert had already won European cup with Dortmund - set up a goal and marked Zidane out of game.

Collins was in prime form for Monaco and had just won French league (one of first Scottish players to make it outside of UK).

[Haggis_trap]

15 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

Not sure Collins or lambert were considered world class back then tbh. 

 

Lambert had already won European cup with Dortmund - set up a goal and marked Zidane out of game.

Collins was in prime form for Monaco and had just won French league (one of first Scottish players to make it outside of UK).

[mccaughey85]

3 minutes ago, Haggis_trap said:

Lambert had already won European cup with Dortmund - set up a goal and marked Zidane out of game.

Collins was in prime form for Monaco and had just won French league (one of first Scottish players to make it outside of UK).

He had a brilliant season at dortmund and was very good at marking dangerous opponents and nullifying them but I am not sure if he could be considered world class. He was probably just below world class imo. I don't think he was in the top 10/15 midfielders in Europe.

Collins is debatable, he was an excellent player but never really achieved much apart from that French league title. If there was 1 player who was World class from that 98 squad it would be Collins but imo he wasnt quite that level. 

[Taylor1996]

1 hour ago, Haggis_trap said:

Good topic of conversation....
I would say both teams had two world class players ?

1998 - Collins and Lambert
2021 -Tierney and Robertson
 

Yep. All four were/are world class.

Best Scotland player that I've seen in the flesh. Just ahead of Collins and McAllister.

Especially Lambert. He was up with the best anchormen (with Dunga and Deschamps) in that era. Juventus wanted him after the European Cup final.

Edited June 12, 2021 by Taylor1996

[Haggis_trap]

9 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

He had a brilliant season at dortmund and was very good at marking dangerous opponents and nullifying them but I am not sure if he could be considered world class. He was probably just below world class imo. I don't think he was in the top 10/15 midfielders in Europe.

Collins is debatable, he was an excellent player but never really achieved much apart from that French league title. If there was 1 player who was World class from that 98 squad it would be Collins but imo he wasnt quite that level. 

Depends exactly how you define "world class". 

However both Lambert / Collins were playing at top level in 1998.  Lambert didn't play a glamorous position : but he was pivotal to Dortmund side that won a European Cup.

I would say Tierney and Robbo at similar level?  All four could / do play for top premier league side.  But none of them is a Real Madrid galactico.

 

 

Edited June 12, 2021 by Haggis_trap

[gkm_vancouver]

2 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

I am not talking about the potential of today's squad, I am just comparing today's squad as it is now with 98s squad. Also Tbf 98s key players were at the end of their international so we know how there career panned out. 

In that case it is not a fair comparison then is it? You've not got a level playing field without weighting the team that are still playing and haven't started Euro 2020 yet, that's a basic statistical fact when comparing. May be worth coming back after the next 3 games and reassessing. However the very fact that most on here are saying the teams are very close with one area just 'edging' it tells me that the 21 squad tops it as they have got some more games in them and barring disasters (which is a possibility) are likely to have some more good performances in them. They are on a decent run, are performing well under steady management and have a clutch of extremely talented youngsters in comparison with an aging squad that also included the likes of  Donnelly, Gemmill, Whyte, Booth

[duncan II]

I think people are seriously overrating Colin Hendry. He really wasn't that great. Yeah, he won the English league, but it was very much a sum of the parts team effort. He was good, but he wasn't brilliant.

[mccaughey85]

2 hours ago, Haggis_trap said:

Depends exactly how you define "world class". 

However both Lambert / Collins were playing at top level in 1998.  Lambert didn't play a glamorous position : but he was pivotal to Dortmund side that won a European Cup.

I would say Tierney and Robbo at similar level?  All four could / do play for top premier league side.  But none of them is a Real Madrid galactico.

 

 

I define world class as being in the top 10/15 in your position. I split the positions into goalkeepers, centre backs, fullbacks, midfielders, wingers and strikers. I wouldn't say lambert was in the top 15 midfielders in the world although I would say he wasn't far off. Same goes with Collins. Lambert was like Darren fletcher in that he carried out his instructions brilliantly and was disciplined enough to mark a player out of the game. It was an asset to dortmund and man utd but I don't feel either could be classed as in the top 10 midfielders in the world. There was easily 10 midfielders I could name who were better during that period of the late nineties through to the early noughties which was when he was at his best. 

Robertson is 1 of the best fullbacks in the world and Tierney is starting to look like one of the best in the world as well so I would class both of them as world class. 

Saying that I would pick Collins if I could only pick one out those four. Midfielders have more influence on the game imo. 

[mccaughey85]

31 minutes ago, gkm_vancouver said:

In that case it is not a fair comparison then is it? You've not got a level playing field without weighting the team that are still playing and haven't started Euro 2020 yet, that's a basic statistical fact when comparing. May be worth coming back after the next 3 games and reassessing. However the very fact that most on here are saying the teams are very close with one area just 'edging' it tells me that the 21 squad tops it as they have got some more games in them and barring disasters (which is a possibility) are likely to have some more good performances in them. They are on a decent run, are performing well under steady management and have a clutch of extremely talented youngsters in comparison with an aging squad that also included the likes of  Donnelly, Gemmill, Whyte, Booth

Well it is a fair comparison if you understand its not about judging the potential of the current squad against the 98 squad. It's just taking things as they are right now. In another 5 years when this squad has matured we can discuss the topic again and compare them to the 98 squad. As I and others have already said the current squad could be better than the 98 in a few years but for now it's not imo. 

[slasher]

48 minutes ago, duncan II said:

I think people are seriously overrating Colin Hendry. He really wasn't that great. Yeah, he won the English league, but it was very much a sum of the parts team effort. He was good, but he wasn't brilliant.

Having just read the whole thread that would be my overriding view also. Hendry I think is one example of someone who got a lot of kudos from the support based on not a lot. 

[gkm_vancouver]

13 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

 it's not imo. 

Exactly, in your opinion. That is the whole point of the thread though isn't it, you are asking the question and I'm giving you an answer with some constructive criticism. You might not agree with me but you certainly haven't convinced me the 98 squad is better.

You may as well have started this thread by saying 'Can I state the bleedin obvious by saying that I think an older team with more caps and who have experience of a world cup (and most of them a Euros also)  are better players than a younger team with less caps and without any experience of a tourney?'

Anyway what is more important is the team plays well on Monday and gets a result. As for waiting for 5 years to discuss again - if this team manage to get through to the group stage then I won't have to wait another 5 years as it will be beyond reasonable doubt. 🤪 😉

[mccaughey85]

32 minutes ago, slasher said:

Having just read the whole thread that would be my overriding view also. Hendry I think is one example of someone who got a lot of kudos from the support based on not a lot. 

We only conceded 6 goals in the 96 and 98 qualifying campaigns. That tells me that defensively we were excellent during the years hendry played. I don't think anyone is overrating him but he was an excellent centre back who was probably 1 of the best in the EPL during the 90s. He was also integral to Blackburn winning the league in 95. we would love to have a guy like him nowadays, none of our current centre backs can even cut it in the English top flight consistently let alone spend most of their career there like Calderwood and hendry did

[Taylor1996]

Since we're comparing, might as well look at England, since we're in their group.

1998/2020: England:

                         Seaman

             Adams Stones Campbell 

Neville                                    Le Saux

                     Ince   Beckham

                         Scholes

                     Owen Shearer

98: 10 players
2020: 1 player

Shows you how much they've regressed.

Edited June 13, 2021 by Taylor1996

[JECK]

I think the biggest issue with the 98 squad and the nineties in general was offensively. We were miles off it, well below average. We didn’t even have any wingers and Brown didn’t know what to do and he probably knew as well as anyone that we were sh*te.It was a case of McCoist might nick one, and Gallagher and Durie were to run about and Hope something came off. A fit and willing Duncan Ferguson was our best bet and we would have been a different animal altogether. Don Hutchison sorting himself out in the latter part of his career did us a turn also, but all a bit late in the day. We had 2 wingers in the entire decade, Pat Nevin and Neil McCann - the latter of course setting up Hutchison v England 99.

[gkm_vancouver]

Hendry was a fantastic player for us but he was also made to look a right dobber against Gascoigne at Euro 96. And as others have said we only got 1 goal at Euro 96 and 2 at WC98 inc a pen. We've got 10 in our last 5 games and let in 5.

Let's just hope the team are not checking out the board also. After all we could be on the verge of a bit of history with this team that are on a decent run and have great potential so just for the record although they are up against some great players from 98 this team have the overall better talent and capability that will push us into the second round for the first time in our history. Just saying 😉

[mccaughey85]

51 minutes ago, gkm_vancouver said:

Hendry was a fantastic player for us but he was also made to look a right dobber against Gascoigne at Euro 96. And as others have said we only got 1 goal at Euro 96 and 2 at WC98 inc a pen. We've got 10 in our last 5 games and let in 5.

Let's just hope the team are not checking out the board also. After all we could be on the verge of a bit of history with this team that are on a decent run and have great potential so just for the record although they are up against some great players from 98 this team have the overall better talent and capability that will push us into the second round for the first time in our history. Just saying 😉

Are you trying to suggest getting 10 goals in our last 5 games is impressive? Three of those games were against faroes, Luxembourg and Israel. 

We only scored 3 goals at euro 96 and wc 98 but we were up against great teams. 

Why would you not want the team checking this board, we had good players in 98 so it's no shame in being compared to them. 

[mccaughey85]

1 hour ago, JECK said:

I think the biggest issue with the 98 squad and the nineties in general was offensively. We were miles off it, well below average. We didn’t even have any wingers and Brown didn’t know what to do and he probably knew as well as anyone that we were sh*te.It was a case of McCoist might nick one, and Gallagher and Durie were to run about and Hope something came off. A fit and willing Duncan Ferguson was our best bet and we would have been a different animal altogether. Don Hutchison sorting himself out in the latter part of his career did us a turn also, but all a bit late in the day. We had 2 wingers in the entire decade, Pat Nevin and Neil McCann - the latter of course setting up Hutchison v England 99.

Yeh attacking wise we were poor, we just didn't have a lot of great wingers and strikers. Luckily we had some excellent defensive midfielders and centre backs and that was what brown built our success on.