Scottish player transfers

[gonzohiggy]

27 minutes ago, Scots_Wha_Hae said:

Really interesting to get some insight from someone who has been there, thanks for sharing.

How did your journey work out? I hope you managed to stay in the game through your experiences even if not at EPL level.

Out of interest, if you still have links to the game, what is the feeling amongst young Scottish players based at Scottish clubs with regard to player development? Do they believe there is a real pathway to first team and ultimately elite football or is there a perception that development is secondary in Scottish football? Of course every club is different but I get the sense that there is growing distrust of the ability of Scottish clubs to develop elite talent or even to properly prioritise development of our own players.

I stayed 3 years before coming back up the road. Retired this year so have had a long playing career just not at the level I would have thought as a kid but still some great memories.
 

I mentioned earlier about having the full package to become a good professional - technical, physical, game intelligence and mental. I had the first three but was sorely lacking in the 4th which meant that (with hindsight) I was never really cut out for being a top professional. You need to have total / unshakable self belief and I only had that when circumstances around me were perfect which they rarely are.

In terms of the current crop of young players - I don’t think they are much different really to 20 years ago. At 16 you think you are the best and can make it wherever you go whether that’s Man Utd or at Hamilton. It’s very difficult for a kid from Scotland to turn down a move to a top EPL club. The money is more in a week than in a month in Scotland and my experience is everything is better coaching / facilities the lot. I think that’s where having football experience in your family can help where advice can help you pick the right club, not necessarily the biggest name or the most money.
 

I personally think the Scottish Premiership clubs are generally really really poor at developing their own. I’m not sure if that’s down to pressure on managers or the players aren’t good enough or it’s too physical for them but the clubs are missing a trick by not having at least 3 of their own youth in the first team. Just look at what happens when the boys get a chance, Lennon miller or David Watson for example this season they improve rapidly when they play. 

[mccaughey85]

On 1/11/2024 at 8:00 PM, Diamond Scot said:

Im sorry but you are just wrong regarding top players for elite clubs. I randomly picked Bayern Munich and 7 out of their starting 11 in the Champions League came through at clubs playing in the top leagues. Now this will vary from club to club however its nowhere near the 80% you state.

You say that elite clubs have youth setups because they can hoard players but thats not the question I asked. I asked why the clubs all play in the youth leagues. Up until this season they could buy as many players as they wanted and then just loan them out to clubs to get what you are saying is rhe best development route. So why werent they doing it. Why werent all the lower leagues and non elite leagues of Europe literally littered with players from the elite leagues? If thats the best way for players to develop why would any club not go down this route?

Look at pretty much any sport and the countries that have the best setups, invest the most into coaching and technology etc tend to always get the best results. Take cycling just as an example. Every country in the world has access to bikes amd yet the UK consistently get gold medals. Why? Because we have the best facilites and coaches. 

Why would football be any different. For every Andy Robertson that drops down the leagues and gets game time there will be thousands who either drop out the game or never make it to any decent level.

Being at a big club is not a guarentee of success however it does give you the best platform to fulfil your potential. This combined with a good loan move to get adult football is the ideal situation imo.

I think theres been a misunderstanding as to what I meant with the 80 percent coming through at elite clubs. My point was that very few players go straight into the first team from an elite clubs youth set up without getting significant experience at a lower level.

Looking through Bayerns last champions league game against Basel, 7 out of the starting 11 spent at least a season or 2 playing lower league football or in a weak European league. And that's me not counting neuer who actually spent a very short period playing lower league football before making it into Bayerns team.

Also Bayern are one of the few elite clubs who actually do quite well with converting youth players into first team players.

Looking at man citys last champions league game they started 8 players who played a lower level of football before becoming a first team regular at an elite club. It would normally be more than that as haaland didn't play and man city had already qualified and played a few youth prospects that normally don't play. Probably closer to 9 or 10. You can do the same with any top club and it will mostly be 8 or 9 that played lower level football before stepping up. 

Fair enough that might be a harsh barometer or critique. I do think that elite clubs can produce top players but they tend to do that by giving them significant experience at a lower level.

Not sure what your point is regarding the elite clubs not putting youth players out on loan. Pretty sure alot of of the lower leagues and non elite European leagues are littered with youth players from elite clubs. 

Cyclings different, it's a solo sport that relies more on doing individual training. It's not a team sport and is totally different to football that comparing the two is a waste of time. Theres no element of learning to play with team mates in cycling. I am not suggesting having good facilities and coaching is a negative but it will never replace first team football. 

If being at a top club gives you the best chance of success how has it failed our youth players so badly? The youth prospects we sent down were considered some of the best talents with the best potential yet they consistently failed when placed into elite clubs youth set ups.

[mccaughey85]

On 1/12/2024 at 12:44 AM, ProudScot said:

Does Gilmour not show exactly why you should do it though?

Hes a first team regular in the EPL now at 22, no danger he’d have been that if he hadn’t left Rangers as a teenager 

How can you tell? 

We don't know what might have happened. 

Surely the stats show that gilmour is an outlier. None of our other young players in 20 years have made it at epl level after being at an elite club apart from mctominay. 

For the record I ain't saying he should have stayed at rangers or that rangers was the best place for him to develop but I do think he might have developed better playing first team football at an English championship club for 2 or 3 seasons before moving up to epl level. 

Also gilmour is only just starting to have a proper club career at 22, it was touch and go wether he would make it at epl level. The fact that his career is starting to take off at Brighton probably proves my point that moving to a smaller club that will give you opportunities is better than being at a club that won't give you a proper chance. Would you rather gilmour was still at Chelsea struggling to get any first team football?

 

[dan cake]

Josh Doig to Marseille due to be completed early next week pending medical 

[Tartan blood]

2 hours ago, gonzohiggy said:

I feel fairly well qualified to talk on this topic having moved at 16 from an SPL club to an English premier league club. 
 

There are parts from previous posters I agree with and others I don’t. Generally no one player is the same and player’s development is not linear. I would say that first team football is essential at the right stage in a players development and with the right club. Most players will stay at their parent club from 16 until at least 18. The coaching at the top professional clubs is excellent, the boys are still boys and are developing physically and mentally and they benefit from being around their peers.

For a player who has obvious talent such as Doak a loan could be beneficial but he’s also barely 18 and prior to his injury he’ll have been training with world class players and getting unbelievable day to day experience of working with salah. That is an unbelievable opportunity for a young player and at his age is more beneficial to his potential of being an elite player than going on loan to SPL or championship at the moment. Having said that, there’s a point where that learning needs to be put into practice and he starts to get real experience in first team football. That could be a loan next season for him.

There was talk earlier about clubs “hoarding” young players. This is absolutely the case and it’s getting worse with kids signing at 8 years old but my overriding experience / feeling is that the best players (ie those who have the correct combination of technical ability, mentality, game intelligence and physical ability) invariably find a way to their level regardless of how many players they are competing with. It may take longer but they’ll find a way through.

McGaughey85 makes a valid point in the sense that at a certain point a young player needs to be playing senior football. When that happens totally depends on their own situation physically/ mentally / technically as well their position within their own club. 

This is an invaluable insight, and it confirms exactly what my thoughts were - it is nuanced. It's not one size fits all. What will work for one person, might not work for another.

Robertson and McGinn's pathway is exactly what they needed. That might not have been what Doak, Gilmour or Tierney needed. 

[Scot1]

8 minutes ago, dan cake said:

Josh Doig to Marseille due to be completed early next week pending medical 

Was just about to post this, I think it’s a very good move, a step up at a good time in his career / development. It’ll be good for him to be playing for team that isn’t hovering around the relegation zone.

Edited January 13 by Scot1

[gonzohiggy]

1 minute ago, mccaughey85 said:

How can you tell? 

We don't know what might have happened. 

Surely the stats show that gilmour is an outlier. None of our other young players in 20 years have made it at epl level after being at an elite club apart from mctominay. 

For the record I ain't saying he should have stayed at rangers or that rangers was the best place for him to develop but I do think he might have developed better playing first team football at an English championship club for 2 or 3 seasons before moving up to epl level. 

Also gilmour is only just starting to have a proper club career at 22, it was touch and go wether he would make it at epl level. The fact that his career is starting to take off at Brighton probably proves my point that moving to a smaller club that will give you opportunities is better than being at a club that won't give you a proper chance. Would you rather gilmour was still at Chelsea struggling to get any first team football?

 

I don’t agree with your take on Gilmour. Yes it’s been his best season so far but he’s played a fair amount of games in EPL at 22 and not all this season.
 

He’s an elite level talent. Yes he’s had some difficult times and a dreadful loan move which made very little sense from the outside but As I said in earlier thread the best players eventually find their way through. 

Gilmour is probably a bit of an outlier as he really is an unbelievable talent who I think would be playing at the top level regardless of his route there.

[mccaughey85]

On 1/12/2024 at 5:11 AM, Caledonian Craig said:

In all honesty it all comes down to individual players. Some players who are naturally-talented and have a lot of the required attributes are not going to learn anything bumming around in the SPL as their levels are often way above what they have to test themselves against. A move to a bigger and more competitive league to test yourself at a higher level is what is required. Or sometimes they develop at a big club and players such as Gilmour, McTominay and in recent years Fletcher fall into this bracket.

However, there are other youngsters not at quite such a high level in their youth who require coaching and gametime to grow to a better standard. A more gradual approach and climb if you will and with that then matches under their belt that can continue to grow to a higher standard. Remaining within SPL football is benificial to them. We have seen this route taken in recent times by McGinn, Robertson, Armstrong, Ferguson and others and it has served them well.

In short there is no right or wrong way it depends on the individual and what their requirements in the development stages of their career is.

Fletcher came through more than 20 years ago! You call that recent years?

If some of our players are too good for spl football then why did they not make it at a good level after going to epl youth set ups?

Why has only 2 in 20 years made it through an elite club or epl clubs youth set up to play at a high level?

[mccaughey85]

On 1/12/2024 at 5:11 AM, Caledonian Craig said:

In all honesty it all comes down to individual players. Some players who are naturally-talented and have a lot of the required attributes are not going to learn anything bumming around in the SPL as their levels are often way above what they have to test themselves against. A move to a bigger and more competitive league to test yourself at a higher level is what is required. Or sometimes they develop at a big club and players such as Gilmour, McTominay and in recent years Fletcher fall into this bracket.

However, there are other youngsters not at quite such a high level in their youth who require coaching and gametime to grow to a better standard. A more gradual approach and climb if you will and with that then matches under their belt that can continue to grow to a higher standard. Remaining within SPL football is benificial to them. We have seen this route taken in recent times by McGinn, Robertson, Armstrong, Ferguson and others and it has served them well.

In short there is no right or wrong way it depends on the individual and what their requirements in the development stages of their career is.

Fletcher came through more than 20 years ago! You call that recent years?

If some of our youth players are too good for spl football then why did they not make it at a good level after going to epl youth set ups?

Why has only 2 in 20 years made it through an elite club or epl clubs youth set up to play at a high level?

[mccaughey85]

7 minutes ago, Tartan blood said:

This is an invaluable insight, and it confirms exactly what my thoughts were - it is nuanced. It's not one size fits all. What will work for one person, might not work for another.

Robertson and McGinn's pathway is exactly what they needed. That might not have been what Doak, Gilmour or Tierney needed. 

Tierney falls into the mcginn and Robertson category.

Doaks not made it yet.

Why has only 2 in 20 years made it through an elite clubs youth system? Surely that suggests that route doesn't work.

[Scot1]

I think one of the major problems within Scottish football is the immaturity of our players, at least in the last few decades. Most Scottish players have the mentality of teenagers. Other players from other nations seem to mature quicker while we seem to think being a “cheeky chappy” into your 20’s and 30’s is somehow “cool”. And invariably it leads to “boys” against “men” on the pitch. 

Edited January 13 by Scot1

[mccaughey85]

8 minutes ago, gonzohiggy said:

I don’t agree with your take on Gilmour. Yes it’s been his best season so far but he’s played a fair amount of games in EPL at 22 and not all this season.
 

He’s an elite level talent. Yes he’s had some difficult times and a dreadful loan move which made very little sense from the outside but As I said in earlier thread the best players eventually find their way through. 

Gilmour is probably a bit of an outlier as he really is an unbelievable talent who I think would be playing at the top level regardless of his route there.

I would probably agree that gilmour would make it regardless of what route he took but I think he might have been an epl regular at 19/20 had he played first team football at lower level rather than spending his 16-19 years in the Chelsea youth set up. I suppose we will never know and I am just thankful he is at a club like Brighton who will give him the valuable experience he needs.

He wasn't getting that at Chelsea and was in danger of not making the grade at epl level.

 

[Tartan blood]

39 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

Tierney falls into the mcginn and Robertson category.

Doaks not made it yet.

Why has only 2 in 20 years made it through an elite clubs youth system? Surely that suggests that route doesn't work.

I don't particularly want to debate this with you, as it seems you've made up your mind and won't change it. Even when we have a poster that has first hand experience of what you are arguing.

Very quickly, Tierney is not the same as Robertson. He was playing Champions Legue football at 18 for the best team in the country. Robertson was playing amateur. Very different pathway.

Doak hasn't made it yet, but as Gonzohiggy correctly pointed out, he is understudy to one of the best wingers on the planet, so surely there is some benefit there. He'll inevitably go out on loan soon to give him the gametime he needs.

[mccaughey85]

4 minutes ago, Tartan blood said:

I don't particularly want to debate this with you, as it seems you've made up your mind and won't change it. Even when we have a poster that has first hand experience of what you are arguing.

Very quickly, Tierney is not the same as Robertson. He was playing Champions Legue football at 18 for the best team in the country. Robertson was playing amateur. Very different pathway.

Doak hasn't made it yet, but as Gonzohiggy correctly pointed out, he is understudy to one of the best wingers on the planet, so surely there is some benefit there. He'll inevitably go out on loan soon to give him the gametime he needs.

Tierney is the same as Robertson in the fact that he played lower level football(spl and English championship) before stepping up. Both players benefitted from this pathway and it helped them become the players they have become. 

Also Tierney got champs league experience because he played for Celtic. If he was at an elite European club I doubt he would have gotten that. You suggesting Tierney and Robbie would be better players had they went to an elite clubs youth set up instead of playing first team football.

[mccaughey85]

14 minutes ago, Tartan blood said:

I don't particularly want to debate this with you, as it seems you've made up your mind and won't change it. Even when we have a poster that has first hand experience of what you are arguing.

Very quickly, Tierney is not the same as Robertson. He was playing Champions Legue football at 18 for the best team in the country. Robertson was playing amateur. Very different pathway.

Doak hasn't made it yet, but as Gonzohiggy correctly pointed out, he is understudy to one of the best wingers on the planet, so surely there is some benefit there. He'll inevitably go out on loan soon to give him the gametime he needs.

Would you say doak is too good to go on loan to the spl or English championship?

[Tartan blood]

38 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

Tierney is the same as Robertson in the fact that he played lower level football(spl and English championship) before stepping up. Both players benefitted from this pathway and it helped them become the players they have become. 

Also Tierney got champs league experience because he played for Celtic. If he was at an elite European club I doubt he would have gotten that. You suggesting Tierney and Robbie would be better players had they went to an elite clubs youth set up instead of playing first team football.

Robertson was given a body blow at a young age and had to drop down divisions before he climbed up the ladder. Tierney started many rungs higher on the ladder. Their psychological journey is vastly different. Plus, Celtic's resources and calibre of players in training are incomparable to Queen's Parks.

Celtic is as elite as it comes in Scotland. 

No, I'm not suggesting that they'd have been better off at elite clubs at all. The point I made before is that it is nuanced. Every person develops differently. Doak and Gilmour will definitely have derived some benefit from training at elite clubs. But it's not all they need.

[Tartan blood]

44 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

Would you say doak is too good to go on loan to the spl or English championship?

No

[mccaughey85]

17 minutes ago, Tartan blood said:

Robertson was given a body blow at a young age and had to drop down divisions before he climbed up the ladder. Tierney started many rungs higher on the ladder. Their psychological journey is vastly different. Plus, Celtic's resources and calibre of players in training are incomparable to Queen's Parks.

Celtic is as elite as it comes in Scotland. 

No, I'm not suggesting that they'd have been better off at elite clubs at all. The point I made before is that it is nuanced. Every person develops differently. Doak and Gilmour will definitely have derived some benefit from training at elite clubs. But it's not all they need.

Point is neither played a high level of football barring a few appearances in the champs league for tierney and neither were at elite clubs. 

They both fall into the same category in terms of developing their careers in weaker leagues.

[Tartan blood]

14 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

Point is neither played a high level of football barring a few appearances in the champs league for tierney and neither were at elite clubs. 

They both fall into the same category in terms of developing their careers in weaker leagues.

You can't seriously be lumping those together. One guy wasplaying amateur football in the 3rd or 4th tier of Scottish football at 18. After being brutally rejected by the most elite team in Scotland. The other was playing Champions league, getting caps for Scotland and training with internationalists every day. You don't actually think they have comparable pathways, do you? 

You must see that there are lots of different ways for players to realise their potential. 

[mccaughey85]

57 minutes ago, Tartan blood said:

You can't seriously be lumping those together. One guy wasplaying amateur football in the 3rd or 4th tier of Scottish football at 18. After being brutally rejected by the most elite team in Scotland. The other was playing Champions league, getting caps for Scotland and training with internationalists every day. You don't actually think they have comparable pathways, do you? 

You must see that there are lots of different ways for players to realise their potential. 

Robertson only spent a brief period at queen's park playing league 2. You know fine well that Robertson quickly moved onto spl and English championship football at around the same age Tierney was playing spl with Celtic. He even had a stint in the epl for one season. To me thats a comparable level of football to what Tierney was exposed to.

Why are you trying to make out Robertson spent most of his younger years at queen's park? 

Whatever way you twist it neither went to elite clubs and wasted their formative years playing youth football. That's the main point I was making. Of course theres going to slight differences in where they played and what age they made transitions. Not every player travels the exact same route but both players played spl and English championship football instead of youth football and that is what helped them develop into good players.

[Caledonian Craig]

4 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

Fletcher came through more than 20 years ago! You call that recent years?

If some of our youth players are too good for spl football then why did they not make it at a good level after going to epl youth set ups?

Why has only 2 in 20 years made it through an elite club or epl clubs youth set up to play at a high level?

Gilmour and McTominay are two more recent examples for you who developed to a high level through youth systems and have had very good Scotland careers so far. There are a few routes to the top like I said - there is no right or wrong way as it depends on what is best for a player's development.

[Tartan blood]

26 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

Robertson only spent a brief period at queen's park playing league 2. You know fine well that Robertson quickly moved onto spl and English championship football at around the same age Tierney was playing spl with Celtic. He even had a stint in the epl for one season. To me thats a comparable level of football to what Tierney was exposed to.

Why are you trying to make out Robertson spent most of his younger years at queen's park? 

Whatever way you twist it neither went to elite clubs and wasted their formative years playing youth football. That's the main point I was making. Of course theres going to slight differences in where they played and what age they made transitions. Not every player travels the exact same route but both players played spl and English championship football instead of youth football and that is what helped them develop into good players.

You make fair points, and I've got embroiled in a conversation about Robertson by accident. Both him and Tierney aren't representative of the usual product of Scottish football. They are arguably our 2 best players and would have reached the top regardless of the route they took.

McGinn and McTominay are possibly the next best. Followed by maybe Hickey and Gilmour. Those 4 took different routes as well.

Honestly, I'm just glad we are producing top talent on a regular basis. 15 years from now, we can maybe analyse what the reason was.

 

[Diamond Scot]

4 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

If being at a top club gives you the best chance of success how has it failed our youth players so badly? The youth prospects we sent down were considered some of the best talents with the best potential yet they consistently failed when placed into elite clubs youth set ups

This point only stands up if you have examples of the opposite happening. We dont produce elite players regardless of the route. 

The only guys to reguarly hold down a starting position at an elite club in the last 20 odd years are Fletcher and Robertson.

As others have said, its different for every player, 1st team football is very important. I dont think anybody is saying its not important however just playing football will only take you so far. You need people to learn off and they are in much greater numbers at clubs in big leagues.

[mccaughey85]

24 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Gilmour and McTominay are two more recent examples for you who developed to a high level through youth systems and have had very good Scotland careers so far. There are a few routes to the top like I said - there is no right or wrong way as it depends on what is best for a player's development.

Yes as I said 2 in 20 years. Thats a poor return. It was 1 in 20 years until gilmour started getting games this season. 

I find it strange ppl in here stubbornly defend the route of going to elite clubs based on the basis that 2 players out of dozens have made it in 2 decades! The question is why when it's proven not to work.

[mccaughey85]

15 minutes ago, Diamond Scot said:

This point only stands up if you have examples of the opposite happening. We dont produce elite players regardless of the route. 

The only guys to reguarly hold down a starting position at an elite club in the last 20 odd years are Fletcher and Robertson.

As others have said, its different for every player, 1st team football is very important. I dont think anybody is saying its not important however just playing football will only take you so far. You need people to learn off and they are in much greater numbers at clubs in big leagues.

Most Countries our size don't produce lots of elite players anyways and never will. I am not expecting us to produce lots of elite players. What I want is a few more Frasers, Armstrongs and hickeys. We produce these level of guys in all positions who can cut it at epl level then we should stand a chance at going to more tournaments.

The way we produce these guys is by getting our best talent playing proper competitive football at a young age. Currently our best players have come from the route I am suggesting. The evidence overwhelmingly supports that route.