Question Time Tonight

[Dave78]

Watched it last night. Couldn't quite work out why the Irish entrepreneur was so negative towards independence (he said it would make him "sad").

Then as the discussion went on it was revealed that he was pro-Brexit and from Northern Ireland and suddenly everything made sense.

[exile]

[aaid]

2 minutes ago, exile said:

Nicola Sturgeon is on Radio Clyde instead, hopefully on Dr Dick's Midnight Surgery.

[exile]

[aaid]

8 hours ago, exile said:

I gave up on Question Time a while back but thought I'd give it a go and this point - about 5 minutes in - was when I turned the TV over.

It's not that people who voted SNP and now don't want independence don't exist, of course they do.  

You don't need to look much further than the 2011 election where the SNP got 44% of the list but support for independence was only around 30%.  Of course, post 2014, most of these no-voting SNP types no longer vote for the SNP.

We also know that after the Brexit referendum a - small - number of 2014 Yes voters who supported Brexit have changed their mind.  For them being in the EU is a bigger problem than being in the UK.  That's absolutely fine and it seems that this person is one of them.

However - and this is the general problem with Question Time - this is an outlier position and what they consistently do is take people with extreme or unrepresentative views and present them ordinary joes.   I've no doubt that the presenter is briefed which audience members to go to.   That might make for good TV - I'd argue that it doesn't - but it isn't representative of public opinion so at best its disingeneous.

To give a flavour of this, looking at the data from the YouGov poll released yesterday - comparing constituency votes as those are the best comparison in this case -, 89% of those people polled who voted SNP in 2019 are planning to vote SNP in a fortnight.  Since the SNP got 45% of the vote in that election, the position of "ex-SNP voter now against Independence"  is 11% of 45%, so just under 5% - no way shape or form is that a representative mainstream view.

For those interested, of the 11% who are planning on shifting, 7% is to Labour, and 1% each to the various other parties and the other side of this coin, 4% of Tory, 19% of Labour and 14% of Lib Dem voters from 2019 are planning to vote for the SNP.

As I said, I turned off after 5 minutes but I'm prepared to bet there weren't any of this much larger group in the audience.

 

[Dave78]

7 minutes ago, aaid said:

I gave up on Question Time a while back but thought I'd give it a go and this point - about 5 minutes in - was when I turned the TV over.

I lasted about a minute.

From what i can see of the campaign, it's all so boring an predictable. 

Get Salmond on, then we'll have an election campaign worth paying attention to.

[aaid]

10 minutes ago, Dave78 said:

I lasted about a minute.

From what i can see of the campaign, it's all so boring an predictable. 

Get Salmond on, then we'll have an election campaign worth paying attention to.

Have to disagree, I don't think politics across the globe has been well served at all over the last decade or so by having populists and extremists from the fringes given a media platform way beyond their importance or level of support because it makes the ratings look good.

[Dave78]

5 minutes ago, aaid said:

Have to disagree, I don't think politics across the globe has been well served at all over the last decade or so by having populists and extremists from the fringes given a media platform way beyond their importance or level of support because it makes the ratings look good.

I don't think your comparison of Salmond with Trump/Farage stands up. But let's for a minute assume that it does. Arguably we should recognise that the winds of politics have shifted this way, and the pro-indy movement would be self-defeating not to take advantage of this if it helps secure the end goal of independence.

 

[hampden_loon2878]

56 minutes ago, aaid said:

Have to disagree, I don't think politics across the globe has been well served at all over the last decade or so by having populists and extremists from the fringes given a media platform way beyond their importance or level of support because it makes the ratings look good.

You would disagree, you hate salmond for what ever reason

[Caledonian Craig]

1 hour ago, Dave78 said:

I don't think your comparison of Salmond with Trump/Farage stands up. But let's for a minute assume that it does. Arguably we should recognise that the winds of politics have shifted this way, and the pro-indy movement would be self-defeating not to take advantage of this if it helps secure the end goal of independence.

 

Lest we forget. Salmond ran the 2014 independence campaign - how did that end up? So lets stop putting him on a god-like pedestal.

[aaid]

1 hour ago, Dave78 said:

I don't think your comparison of Salmond with Trump/Farage stands up. But let's for a minute assume that it does. Arguably we should recognise that the winds of politics have shifted this way, and the pro-indy movement would be self-defeating not to take advantage of this if it helps secure the end goal of independence.

 

I don't think there's a comparison with their personal politics, I do think that where Alba is concerned they are trying to tap into a similar section of the electorate that certainly Farage did.  I find it interesting that I suspect a lot of the other policies that Alba seem to be promoting are not ones which Salmond himself really believes in, so you have to question why that is.

I don't think it's to the advantage of the Indy movement as I don't fundamentally think that the demographic which they are attracting is big enough to make any positive difference but is certainly loud enough to have a negative one.

[aaid]

1 hour ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

You would disagree, you hate salmond for what ever reason

He's an unrepentant predatory sex pest that should have no role in public life, it's pretty simple.

[Och Aye]

7 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Lest we forget. Salmond ran the 2014 independence campaign - how did that end up? So lets stop putting him on a god-like pedestal.

Not sure if you're being serious here but I'll bite. He took support for independence from 23%. It's where it is now thanks to him, the powers against him were incredible, you even had the American president speaking out against it. Independence never crossed my mind until 2012 when the campaigning started, I'm sure I wasn't the only one. 

[Och Aye]

5 minutes ago, aaid said:

He's an unrepentant predatory sex pest that should have no role in public life, it's pretty simple.

A bit over the top there bud. 

We all know anything resembling an apology from Alex Salmond would be distorted and twisted by the media as an admission of guilt on all counts. 

Edited April 23, 2021 by Och Aye

[Caledonian Craig]

1 minute ago, Och Aye said:

Not sure if you're being serious here but I'll bite. He took support for independence from 23%. It's where it is now thanks to him, the powers against him were incredible, you even had the American president speaking out against it. Independence never crossed my mind until 2012 when the campaigning started, I'm sure I wasn't the only one. 

Yes I am being serious. We failed due to no concrete currency plan all under his watch which is amateurish and we'll fail again the next time if we do not address it. As I said realism is needed here. Independence will be achieved by solidarity and solid plans on taking Scotland forward not by someone people are intent on portraying as some kind of superman that isn't.

[Och Aye]

Just now, Caledonian Craig said:

Yes I am being serious. We failed due to no concrete currency plan all under his watch which is amateurish and we'll fail again the next time if we do not address it. As I said realism is needed here. Independence will be achieved by solidarity and solid plans on taking Scotland forward not by someone people are intent on portraying as some kind of superman that isn't.

Not Superman but when it comes to politics he was head and shoulders above the rest. Can you name any other Scot who'd have got us to this point. Remember where the SNP were before his leadership. 

Agree on the currency. Still dealing with it very badly. 

[aaid]

10 minutes ago, Och Aye said:

A bit over the top there bud. 

We all know anything resembling an apology from Alex Salmond would be distorted and twisted by the media as an admission of guilt on all counts. 

I don't think that's why he's not apologising for his behaviour, I think it's because he doesn't think he's done anything wrong or at least can't bring himself to admit to it, I take another view.

And before anyone says he was found not guilty in court, I fully accept that and on the basis of the evidence that was presented its hard to argue with that verdict.   

However, that *doesn't* mean that all those who gave evidence against him lied, it doesn't mean that he didn't behave in a way that most fair-minded people, to use his phrase, would consider inappropriate and it doesn't mean that the behaviour admitted to in court should not be questioned.

He could've apologised, even a Priti Patel style, I apoligise if anyone was upset, but didn't.  Instead he chose to carry out a vindictive program, largely by proxy, aimed at trying to destroy the careers and reputations of those who complained about him and/or who he believes should've acted to protect him and make the allegations go away.

[Caledonian Craig]

8 minutes ago, Och Aye said:

Not Superman but when it comes to politics he was head and shoulders above the rest. Can you name any other Scot who'd have got us to this point. Remember where the SNP were before his leadership. 

Agree on the currency. Still dealing with it very badly. 

Well no he wasn't as he never got Yes over the line in 2014 because of things like afore-mentioned currency debacle. I get that some are drawn to his persona but many more are driven away by it. His lack of popularity in polls show that.

[thplinth]

aaid starting to come completely unglued now. 

Anyone actually seen her(?) in the same room as Woman H.

[thplinth]

Hmmm so its a choice between believing the judges in the Court of Session and jury at the criminal trial who actually saw all the evidence and witnesses.... or

...wee bitter Salmond hating aaid banging the same smears on the TAMB as s/he has been doing for years now.

Tricky one.

[exile]

8 hours ago, aaid said:

However - and this is the general problem with Question Time - this is an outlier position and what they consistently do is take people with extreme or unrepresentative views and present them ordinary joes. 

 

Indeed.

8 hours ago, aaid said:

As I said, I turned off after 5 minutes but I'm prepared to bet there weren't any of this much larger group in the audience.
 

I saw most of it, and none were evident. The audience, it's hard to tell but could have been a slight unionist majority plus several neutrals just interested in health, climate/energy etc. But if the numerical majority was slight, that was made up for by having the "I abanonded the SNP cos of indy" person, who perfecly fit the Unionist narrative - and who was immediately latched on to by Ross who was able to say (something like) "look, see, they're losing support cos they won't shut up about independence!" She looked a bit edgy, as if trying not to fluff pre-prepared lines. Hmm.

[Caledonian Craig]

12 minutes ago, exile said:

Indeed.

I saw most of it, and none were evident. The audience, it's hard to tell but could have been a slight unionist majority plus several neutrals just interested in health, climate/energy etc. But if the numerical majority was slight, that was made up for by having the "I abanonded the SNP cos of indy" person, who perfecly fit the Unionist narrative - and who was immediately latched on to by Ross who was able to say (something like) "look, see, they're losing support cos they won't shut up about independence!" She looked a bit edgy, as if trying not to fluff pre-prepared lines. Hmm.

Yes it is clear those chosen were majority of pro-unionists and far less pro-independence voices - not a fair representation of the electorate and carefully selecting some random person to give unionist parties a boost.

[hampden_loon2878]

7 hours ago, aaid said:

He's an unrepentant predatory sex pest that should have no role in public life, it's pretty simple.

So lets get this straight? You are accusing him of sexual misconduct? Thats a big accusation there. 

[hampden_loon2878]

6 hours ago, aaid said:

I don't think that's why he's not apologising for his behaviour, I think it's because he doesn't think he's done anything wrong or at least can't bring himself to admit to it, I take another view.

And before anyone says he was found not guilty in court, I fully accept that and on the basis of the evidence that was presented its hard to argue with that verdict.   

However, that *doesn't* mean that all those who gave evidence against him lied, it doesn't mean that he didn't behave in a way that most fair-minded people, to use his phrase, would consider inappropriate and it doesn't mean that the behaviour admitted to in court should not be questioned.

He could've apologised, even a Priti Patel style, I apoligise if anyone was upset, but didn't.  Instead he chose to carry out a vindictive program, largely by proxy, aimed at trying to destroy the careers and reputations of those who complained about him and/or who he believes should've acted to protect him and make the allegations go away.

You must be on the books for the murrells

[aaid]

1 minute ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

So lets get this straight? You are accusing him of sexual misconduct? Thats a big accusation there. 

I'm going on what was disclosed at the trial.  It was his own lawyer that described him as a sex pest.