Tennis 2017

[min]

A good tournament for Andy, all things considered. Saying he felt tired in the last set, so this 5 setter will be of benefit in the long run. A good weeks practice before Queen's should set him up. 

Nadal back to looking unbeatable on clay and can't see Stan making an impact in the final.

Federer returning to the court in Stuttgart next week, adding another dimension to the grass court season.

[Caledonian Craig]

18 hours ago, Govanhill Jacobite said:

5-0 down in the 5th, all over, Gutted but what a tournament its been for him with it being his worst surface and sets him up for Wimbledon

He was physically shot by then. Murray was on court three hours longer than Wawrinka going into the match and that freshness just told. By no means a terrible result and it has been a tournament that has seen Andy re-establish himself and find good form for the first time this year with the grass court season beckoning. Onwards and upwards Andy.

Rafa to win in four tomorrow.

[Toepoke]

On Friday, June 09, 2017 at 7:46 PM, min said:

Nadal back to looking unbeatable on clay and can't see Stan making an impact in the final.

Yep it's a bit of a massacre so far.

 

[Caledonian Craig]

Immense performance from Rafa. On form nobody on the planet can get close to Rafa on the red stuff. Ten times champion - that is a feat I'd never thought I'd see in a slam event in tennis. Unbelievable.

[phart]

3 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

. Unbelievable.

Agreed.

[Boynze]

2 hours ago, phart said:

Agreed.

Is that a loaded agreed per chance?

[phart]

On 11/06/2017 at 11:45 PM, Boynze said:

Is that a loaded agreed per chance?

I agree that Nadal's performance was "unbelievable"

[min]

Will be tough for Murray to still be #1 at the end of the grass season. It was always going to be, but didn't think it would be Nadal challenging for that position. 

2605 points of a gap, with Murray defending 2,500 points at Queen's/Wimbledon and Nadal defending zero.

As an aside, the top 5 in the rankings are all aged 30+. Think that tells a story or two...

[phart]

17 hours ago, min said:

Will be tough for Murray to still be #1 at the end of the grass season. It was always going to be, but didn't think it would be Nadal challenging for that position. 

2605 points of a gap, with Murray defending 2,500 points at Queen's/Wimbledon and Nadal defending zero.

As an aside, the top 5 in the rankings are all aged 30+. Think that tells a story or two...

If you take away some wins in the 70's. All the Grandslam winners are the oldest in history. Only Murray and someone else are under 30.

 

I wish Andy wasn't working with Lendl, as he is a Victor Conte disciple.

[Bannannan]

Good start on the grass for Roger.........not...

[Toepoke]

On Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 4:25 PM, min said:

As an aside, the top 5 in the rankings are all aged 30+. Think that tells a story or two...

That's an astonishing stat!

Borg retired at 26, McEnroe won his last slam aged 25...

 

[Fairbairn]

7 hours ago, Toepoke said:

That's an astonishing stat!

Borg retired at 26, McEnroe won his last slam aged 25...

 

Connors won his last one at 30, Sampras at 30, Agassi at 33. 

[Caledonian Craig]

The sport is so much more different now hence why the peak age is older. The sport requires great physicality and it takes a few years to build up muscle tone and peak fitness needed to beat the very top players in the sport. The talented youngsters of today are scrawny by comparison but will get there in time.

[min]

2 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

The sport is so much more different now hence why the peak age is older. The sport requires great physicality and it takes a few years to build up muscle tone and peak fitness needed to beat the very top players in the sport. The talented youngsters of today are scrawny by comparison but will get there in time.

I'm not sure the peak age is older, just that 'the big four' truly are the golden generation of tennis and their peaks have lasted a ridiculous length of time. Nadal won his first major two days after his 19th birthday, Djokovic was 20 for his first and Federer was 21. The way that they are still at the top (and have consistently been so) after a decade or more is unprecedented.

 

[phart]

It's the use of performance enhancing drugs. Tennis has one of the worst testing regiments and transparency in any major sport.

 

The whole Nike project in Oregon is just about to fall down that hole shortly as well.

 

 

[Parklife]

19 hours ago, Bannannan said:

Good start on the grass for Roger.........not...

Great to see that  

1 hour ago, phart said:

It's the use of performance enhancing drugs. Tennis has one of the worst testing regiments and transparency in any major sport.

Quite probably. Just hope Andy isn't involved in any way. Given his vocal anti-doping comments on numerous occasions, it'd feel like a double betrayal. 

[Caledonian Craig]

7 hours ago, min said:

I'm not sure the peak age is older, just that 'the big four' truly are the golden generation of tennis and their peaks have lasted a ridiculous length of time. Nadal won his first major two days after his 19th birthday, Djokovic was 20 for his first and Federer was 21. The way that they are still at the top (and have consistently been so) after a decade or more is unprecedented.

 

Yes of course talent plays its part as well but those four players are also supreme physical specimens. For the younger generation to break their dominance they find it so tough. Playing lights out tennis is often not enough as they also need to compete physically and they just cannot do this. Rafa, Roger, Novak and Andy are all capable of winning matches that last any length - the up and coming players are just not physically ready to compete. I liken it to them being sprinters who can keep up for short spells whereas the legends of the game are like marathon runners - they go forever.

[thplinth]

Only on the back of this type of very informative phart PE drug thread I suggested long time ago to some big tennis nut that maybe justy maybe Nadal (& then later Djokovic are maybe at it and sadly so must be Murray to even be competing).

Trust me it is not going to win you any friends. Just say Nadal alone and folk are looking at you like you said Jesus was Satan (or at least they would when folk still had beliefs). These sporting heros are folks new gods it seems.

Right phart without defaming who do you think in the top 5 is not at it?

[phart]

1 hour ago, thplinth said:

Right phart without defaming who do you think in the top 5 is not at it?

None of them. Murray is with Lendl and went back with him again for a reason. Lendl was a former client of Victor Conte, as was Sharapova but she is Russian. UKAD is refusing to retest Mo Farah's held samples as his trainer is embroiled in a FBI investigation in which he was giving dodgy medicine to 16 year olds.

Nadal is nothing, Lance Armstrong when he was still the saviour of cancer, was a bad one. I had folk genuinely pissed off with me at it, including my brother.

That's why I don't bring up Messi and Barca (used same doctor as Lance) on here too many folk with zero knowledge but a love of Barca.

 

[thplinth]

11 hours ago, phart said:

None of them. Murray is with Lendl and went back with him again for a reason. Lendl was a former client of Victor Conte, as was Sharapova but she is Russian. UKAD is refusing to retest Mo Farah's held samples as his trainer is embroiled in a FBI investigation in which he was giving dodgy medicine to 16 year olds.

Nadal is nothing, Lance Armstrong when he was still the saviour of cancer, was a bad one. I had folk genuinely pissed off with me at it, including my brother.

That's why I don't bring up Messi and Barca (used same doctor as Lance) on here too many folk with zero knowledge but a love of Barca.

 

Interesting. I found myself getting very irritated with Murray when he waded into the Sharapova situation recently saying she should not get wild cards or whatever it was. She was found to be unintentional and yet he singled her out. (I suspect it was just another attack on all things Russian and he was probably asked by someone to make that statement.)

The one thing about dopers is they do seem to be absolutely shameless when speaking out against doping while they themselves are at it. I know a sanctimonious ##### who refuses to watch the cycling or take any interest because 'he does not want to watch cheats'. Of course he is a massive tennis fan.

Edited June 16, 2017 by thplinth

[Parklife]

11 hours ago, phart said:

None of them. Murray is with Lendl and went back with him again for a reason. Lendl was a former client of Victor Conte, as was Sharapova but she is Russian. UKAD is refusing to retest Mo Farah's held samples as his trainer is embroiled in a FBI investigation in which he was giving dodgy medicine to 16 year olds.

You really think Murray dopes? Surprised at that. Mentioning Sharapova and Farah here is strange, there's zero link to them and Andy. 

6 minutes ago, thplinth said:

Interesting. I found myself getting very irritated with Murray when he waded into the Sharapova situation recently saying she should not get wild cards or whatever it was. She was found to be unintentional and yet he singled her out. (I suspect it was just another attack on all things Russian and he was probably asked by someone to make that statement.)

Sharapova cynically used meldonium for years. She had none of the health conditions it was designed to treat. 

[thplinth]

18 minutes ago, Parklife said:

You really think Murray dopes? Surprised at that. Mentioning Sharapova and Farah here is strange, there's zero link to them and Andy. 

Sharapova cynically used meldonium for years. She had none of the health conditions it was designed to treat. 

You are not a doctor and you are not her doctor. It was prescribed and it was not on the banned list for a very long time. She was taking it for over a decade I believe and was only 'caught' because they banned it under a different brand name and she did not know. I think her treatment was extremely harsh (due to her being Russian of course). And this was finally recognized and her ban reduced to her being 'unintentional'. That was their judgement not mine. Murray waded in to that and slagged her off when she was trying to rebuild her ranking using wildcards... I thought that was dickish behaviour especially so given what phart is saying here. Now I am not saying she is not at it in other ways (over to you phart) but for this particular 'crime' I think she was very poorly treated (and still is).

Edited June 16, 2017 by thplinth

[Parklife]

14 minutes ago, thplinth said:

You are not a doctor and you are not her doctor. It was prescribed and it was not on the banned list for a very long time. She was taking it for over a decade I believe and was only 'caught' because they banned it under a different brand name and she did not know. I think her treatment was extremely harsh (due to her being Russian of course). And this was finally recognized and her ban reduced to her being 'unintentional'. That was their judgement not mine. Murray waded in to that and slagged her off when she was trying to rebuild her ranking using wildcards... I thought that was dickish behaviour especially so given what phart is saying here. Now I am not saying she is not at it in other ways (over to you phart) but for this particular 'crime' I think she was very poorly treated (and still is).

I disagree with almost every word of your post. I believe the Meldonium usage was cynical and calculated. 

I also believe her attitude since her return has been pish. For someone of her ability, it'd have taken no time to get up the rankings and qualify for slams by herself. She tried to use the quick route, which directly hinders other players who haven't been banned for doping and was, IMO, rightly criticised. 

IIRC correctly Murray's comments extended to being asked about it and responding that he thinks she should work her way back up. What is phart saying? Lendl worked with someone dodgy 25 years ago, so therefore Murray must be a doper? 

[thplinth]

Cynical and calculated. Oh ok if you say so.

The drug was not banned. It is absurd to criticize anyone for taking supplements or medications that are not banned. 

And how can you be so sure it was cynical and calculated when the experts aren't even agreeing it can be a performance enhancer?

Quote

 

Debates[edit]
A December 2015 study in the journal Drug Testing and Analysis argued that meldonium "demonstrates an increase in endurance performance of athletes, improved rehabilitation after exercise, protection against stress, and enhanced activations of central nervous system (CNS) functions".[76][additional citation needed] It is opposing to steroids in the sense that instead of making the athlete emotionally unstable and readily irritable, it keeps them in an elevated state of mind and keeps their emotions in a happier state. When referring to central nervous system enhancements, it better activates the neurons in the CNS. This improves the messaging system throughout the body and, therefore, can decrease (improve) reaction time for an athlete.

The manufacturer, Grindeks, said in a statement, that it did not believe meldonium’s use should be banned for athletes. It said the drug worked mainly by reducing damage to cells that can be caused by certain byproducts of carnitine. Meldonium “is used to prevent death of ischemic cells and not to increase performance of normal cells,” the statement said. “Meldonium cannot improve athletic performance, but it can stop tissue damage in the case of ischemia,” which is lack of blood flow to an area of the body.[77]

The drug was invented in the mid-1970s at the Institute of Organic Synthesis of the Latvian SSR Academy of Sciences by Ivars Kalviņš.[78][79][80] Kalviņš criticized the ban, saying that WADA had not presented scientific proof that the drug can be used for doping. According to him, meldonium does not enhance athletic performance in any way, and was rather used by athletes to prevent damage to the heart and muscles caused by lack of oxygen during high-intensity exercise. He contended that not allowing athletes to take care of their health was a violation of their human rights, and that the decision aimed to remove Eastern European athletes from competitions and his drug from the pharmaceutical market.[81][82] Liene Kozlovska, the head of the anti-doping department of the Latvian sports medicine center, rejected claims that the ban is in violation of athletes' rights, saying that meldonium is dangerous in high doses, and should only be used under medical supervision to treat genuine health conditions. She also speculated that Russian athletes may not have received adequate warnings that the drug was banned – due to the suspension of the Russian Anti-Doping Agency in late 2015.[83]

Forbes reported that anesthesiology professor Michael Joyner, at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota, who studies how humans respond to physical and mental stress during exercise and other activities, told them that "Evidence is lacking for many compounds believed to enhance athletic performance. Its use has a sort of urban legend element and there is not much out there that is clearly that effective. I would be shocked if this stuff [meldonium] had an effect greater than caffeine or creatine (a natural substance that, when taken as a supplement, is thought to enhance muscle mass).”[84] Ford Vox, a U.S.-based physician specializing in rehabilitation medicine and a journalist reported "there's not much scientific support for its use as an athletic enhancer".[85]

Don Catlin, a long-time anti-doping expert and the scientific director of the Banned Substances Control Group (BSCG) said “There’s really no evidence that there’s any performance enhancement from meldonium - Zero percent.”[86]

 

I would also take a look at the athletes who were caught out by its sudden banning. Mostly all Russians.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meldonium

Calculated and cynical is correct but not from Sharapova IMO. 

But hey ho we will not be agreeing on this.

 

Edited June 16, 2017 by thplinth

[phart]

1 hour ago, Parklife said:

You really think Murray dopes? Surprised at that. Mentioning Sharapova and Farah here is strange, there's zero link to them and Andy. 

 

I think most top athletes are doping in some way. I can't without losing my objectivity remove my  compatriots and favourites from that suspicion. It's the nature of the game these days.

Sharapova and Murrays coach were both Victor Conte clients, that's the link.