Better Options at Centre Back?

[Hertsscot]

42 minutes ago, Tartan Tup said:

Been watching Considine for many years at Aberdeen, went through a bit of a sticky patch but has come out the other side as a reliable defender. Played mostly at left back since DM arrived, not a complete slow coach and when called upon to play Centre Half (his favoured position) he hasn't been found wanting. Very rarely beaten in the air and keeps it simple. Playing consistently and a far better option than Hanley imo but hey he's not playing for a Championship or OF team so Strachan won't even consider him, (which is strange as he meets the height criteria   ).

Anyone old enough like me to remember his dad playing for the Dons, he used to play left back as well but was probably a frustrated cente half.

[clarky1606]

24 minutes ago, calmc92 said:

I'm just stating that even though the current mob are brutal, they are still a step up in class to the 2 I mentioned.. that's worrying. They would have been brought up at some point in the selection process no doubt but they aren't good enough.

 

its the current selection process that has us in this situation  This is why alternatives are being suggested.

Do you regularly watch Aberdeen and/or St Johnstone?

Strachan's problem, along with many of our fans, is that they think we should play the 11 players who are playing at the highest level no matter on whether they are in form, play regularly for their club etc.

Where has that mantra got us? ABSOLUTELY NOWHERE!

Look at NI for example. They play their best 11 players based on who is in form at the moment and it was good enough for them to get to the euros! And lets face it on paper their team is worse than ours. On the park they are streets ahead! 

[vanderark14]

14 hours ago, clarky1606 said:

its the current selection process that has us in this situation  This is why alternatives are being suggested.

Do you regularly watch Aberdeen and/or St Johnstone?

Strachan's problem, along with many of our fans, is that they think we should play the 11 players who are playing at the highest level no matter on whether they are in form, play regularly for their club etc.

Where has that mantra got us? ABSOLUTELY NOWHERE!

Look at NI for example. They play their best 11 players based on who is in form at the moment and it was good enough for them to get to the euros! And lets face it on paper their team is worse than ours. On the park they are streets ahead! 

Strachan would need to be attending matches regularly to find out which Scotland players are on form. 

[clarky1606]

29 minutes ago, vanderark14 said:

Strachan would need to be attending matches regularly to find out which Scotland players are on form. 

Exactly. He is too busy with his media work and smacking golf balls around the Algarve at our expense for that though

[calmc92]

17 hours ago, clarky1606 said:

its the current selection process that has us in this situation  This is why alternatives are being suggested.

Do you regularly watch Aberdeen and/or St Johnstone?

Strachan's problem, along with many of our fans, is that they think we should play the 11 players who are playing at the highest level no matter on whether they are in form, play regularly for their club etc.

Where has that mantra got us? ABSOLUTELY NOWHERE!

Look at NI for example. They play their best 11 players based on who is in form at the moment and it was good enough for them to get to the euros! And lets face it on paper their team is worse than ours. On the park they are streets ahead! 

I do actually see alot of St Johnstone and some of Aberdeen.

I don't think he should play the 11 players that are playing at the highest level but i'm saying although they might be in form in our domestic league there is still a gulf in quality of the players. There needs to be a balance between the two I agree but you can't throw someone in a situation where they will be out of their depth.

We have a better squad than NI I agree but their qualifying group was a shambles, I wouldn't say the contributing factor was playing in-form players (Kyle Lafferty can't even kick a ball for Norwich yet was there talisman in qualifying and the rest pick themselves).

[PapofGlencoe]

this is it.  Not saying he would be any better...but Hanley isn't even getting first team football and then expected to play international football.  Hiding to nothing.  It just doesn't make sense.  Let the lad get a game and some solid performances under his belt then pick him.

[Ormond]

20 minutes ago, calmc92 said:

I do actually see alot of St Johnstone and some of Aberdeen.

I don't think he should play the 11 players that are playing at the highest level but i'm saying although they might be in form in our domestic league there is still a gulf in quality of the players. There needs to be a balance between the two I agree but you can't throw someone in a situation where they will be out of their depth.

We have a better squad than NI I agree but their qualifying group was a shambles, I wouldn't say the contributing factor was playing in-form players (Kyle Lafferty can't even kick a ball for Norwich yet was there talisman in qualifying and the rest pick themselves).

 Hanley will end up playing for someone like Stirling Albion in two-three years. Anderson is a far better centre half than Hanley.

[sbcmfc]

I had real high hopes for Mark Reynolds, intelligent, pacy, great reader of the game, calm under pressure, great discipline and could play a bit.

His development seemed to stall latterly at Motherwell and I gather he's been a bit rubbish for Aberdeen.

I was being slightly facetious in another thread, but Stephen McManus would've relished a game like Friday night.

[clarky1606]

29 minutes ago, calmc92 said:

I do actually see alot of St Johnstone and some of Aberdeen.

I don't think he should play the 11 players that are playing at the highest level but i'm saying although they might be in form in our domestic league there is still a gulf in quality of the players. There needs to be a balance between the two I agree but you can't throw someone in a situation where they will be out of their depth.

We have a better squad than NI I agree but their qualifying group was a shambles, I wouldn't say the contributing factor was playing in-form players (Kyle Lafferty can't even kick a ball for Norwich yet was there talisman in qualifying and the rest pick themselves).

A "gulf" in quality is a bit harsh against our players who play in Scotland vs those who play in England. Remember the many of the players who currently play in England started their careers in Scotland.

If you look around the team who played last week Gordon played before Marshall. Wallace played before Kingsley. Griffiths played before Fletcher/Martin. Forrest played before Burke. Brown played before McArthur/Bannan.

These are all Scottish based players who played before their English based counterparts. Maybe if we done more of that the team would improve. I would happily swap Considine for Hanley. Patterson is a natural right back before Anya. John McGinn can easily slot into midfield. I havent seen too much of Halliday but many Rangers fans say he is good enough for Scotland etc.

[Big Kris]

What about bardsley as center half, always done a good shift when he's played at both right and left back

[girvanTA]

5 at the back with the lb and rb attacking when on the counter. Tierney Berra Mulgrew Martin and Bardsley. Make the defence stubborn and our team hard to beat, might not be great to watch but the opposition don't have to work hard to score goals against us at the moment.

Write this campaign off and start again and build up momentum. For friendlies use guys like Kingsley, Hendrie and Anderson 

[calmc92]

12 minutes ago, clarky1606 said:

A "gulf" in quality is a bit harsh against our players who play in Scotland vs those who play in England. Remember the many of the players who currently play in England started their careers in Scotland.

If you look around the team who played last week Gordon played before Marshall. Wallace played before Kingsley. Griffiths played before Fletcher/Martin. Forrest played before Burke. Brown played before McArthur/Bannan.

These are all Scottish based players who played before their English based counterparts. Maybe if we done more of that the team would improve. I would happily swap Considine for Hanley. Patterson is a natural right back before Anya. John McGinn can easily slot into midfield. I havent seen too much of Halliday but many Rangers fans say he is good enough for Scotland etc.

I mean it's a step up in quality between Considine/Anderson to what we have even though what we have isn't great.

Just because some players get played before people down south doesn't mean it automatically works for anyone.. It goes on a player by player basis. That argument is so flawed.

 

27 minutes ago, Ormond said:

 Anderson is a far better centre half than Hanley.

Anderson does a job up here for a mid table team but that's about it.

[Ormond]

2 minutes ago, calmc92 said:

Anderson does a job up here for a mid table team but that's about it.

Anderson plays consistently well for a TOP table team. Won national silverware with that same team. Weighs in with headed goals now and again. His speciality is burying chances like the one that donkey Hanley missed. Take your English tinted specs off for a second and realise that playing pish players from a lower tier in England who aren't even getting ANY game time clearly isn't working.

[Manno]

37 minutes ago, clarky1606 said:

A "gulf" in quality is a bit harsh against our players who play in Scotland vs those who play in England. Remember the many of the players who currently play in England started their careers in Scotland.

If you look around the team who played last week Gordon played before Marshall. Wallace played before Kingsley. Griffiths played before Fletcher/Martin. Forrest played before Burke. Brown played before McArthur/Bannan.

These are all Scottish based players who played before their English based counterparts. Maybe if we done more of that the team would improve. I would happily swap Considine for Hanley. Patterson is a natural right back before Anya. John McGinn can easily slot into midfield. I havent seen too much of Halliday but many Rangers fans say he is good enough for Scotland etc.

I watch him every other week. He's not. He's alright in Scotland's top flight, but a lot of our (Rangers) players experience goes little further than League One in England and should cope at that level. Midfield is an area we (Scotland) shouldn't need to worry about, if we had a manager picking the right players/system.

As for centre half, if this campaign is a 'write-off' we might as well give Souttar and Wilson an opportunity. I can't think of many younger than them. I always liked Darren McGregor when he was with Rangers and think he'd be suited to a back three, but like Considine and Anderson I'm guessing he's late 20s/early 30s and unlikely to improve. Cooper's name has been mentioned but don't think he's playing much at Leeds? And there was a lad who played for Falkirk now playing with Scunhthorpe called Murray Wallace that we might as well look at - scoff at them playing in League One but we don't seem to have any options playing at the highest level consistently. McGhee and Findlay who were regulars for the U21s are playing in the 'development' league in England rather than our own top flight now.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Manno

[clarky1606]

Just now, Manno said:

I watch him every other week. He's not. He's alright in Scotland's top flight, but a lot of our players experience goes little further than League One in England and should cope at that level. Midfield is an area we shouldn't need to worry about, if we had a manager picking the right players/system.

As for centre half, if this campaign is a 'write-off' we might as well give Souttar and Wilson an opportunity. I can't think of many younger than them. I always liked Darren McGregor when he was with Rangers and think he'd be suited to a back three, but like Considine and Anderson I'm guessing he's late 20s/early 30s and unlikely to improve. Cooper's name has been mentioned but don't think he's playing much at Leeds? And there was a lad who played for Falkirk now playing with Shorpe called Murray Wallace that we might as well look at - scoff at them playing in League One but we don't seem to have any options playing at the highest level consistently. McGhee and Findlay who were regulars for the U21s are playing in the 'development' league in England rather than our own top flight now.

I think Kingsley and Souttar would be a better pairing. Wilson hasn't improved much since he burst onto the scene. There is definitely a player inside him somewhere but he has no consistency. He should be on 20-30 caps by now! 

Under 21s main CB options have been Souttar, McGhee and Kingsley. Although they had a very poor campaign so are they ready for the step up? 

[Manno]

1 minute ago, clarky1606 said:

I think Kingsley and Souttar would be a better pairing. Wilson hasn't improved much since he burst onto the scene. There is definitely a player inside him somewhere but he has no consistency. He should be on 20-30 caps by now! 

Under 21s main CB options have been Souttar, McGhee and Kingsley. Although they had a very poor campaign so are they ready for the step up? 

I don't know why I didn't consider Kingsley. If he keeps getting a game for Swansea there would be no harm in him playing CB for us. 

[clarky1606]

19 minutes ago, calmc92 said:

I mean it's a step up in quality between Considine/Anderson to what we have even though what we have isn't great.

Just because some players get played before people down south doesn't mean it automatically works for anyone.. It goes on a player by player basis. That argument is so flawed.

 

Anderson does a job up here for a mid table team but that's about it.

Forums are all about voicing opinions and debating so no point digging too much into this.

 

I dont think Hanley has more quality than Considine or Anderson. If anything he has less!

Your going to win the war on this one anyway as Strachan will play Hanley regardless 

[calmc92]

4 minutes ago, Ormond said:

Anderson plays consistently well for a TOP table team. Won national silverware with that same team. Weighs in with headed goals now and again. His speciality is burying chances like the one that donkey Hanley missed. Take your English tinted specs off for a second and realise that playing pish players from a lower tier in England who aren't even getting ANY game time clearly isn't working.

I'm not saying it's working i'm saying the likes of Anderson aren't good enough either. I'm not defending Hanley.. I'm saying he is rotten, you seem to think i'm defending him.

IF you were to put Anderson in that squad, he would be out of his depth. I'm sure Hanley/Martin/Berra would walk into Saints team and play consistently average every week.

 

 

[Ormond]

1 minute ago, calmc92 said:

I'm not saying it's working i'm saying the likes of Anderson aren't good enough either. I'm not defending Hanley.. I'm saying he is rotten, you seem to think i'm defending him.

IF you were to put Anderson in that squad, he would be out of his depth. I'm sure Hanley/Martin/Berra would walk into Saints team and play consistently average every week.

 

 

Hanley is not good enough to play for Saints on his form over the last year. There, I've said it.

[andyD]

It's not just about the center backs tho, it's the players around them.

I was fairly bewildered by our lineup on Friday night.

Anya being thrown in for his first game at right back.
Berra for Martin giving us 2 left footed centerbacks.
Retaining Hanley who's looked rusty recently and lacks game time.
Wallace ahead of Kingsley, despite Kingsley being at a better level with a better physique.
Fletcher in midfield despite being carried in previous games.

Anya was exposed defensively.
Wallace got lost for the 1st, should have stopped the 2nd and was done several times, including for what should have been englands 4th when Sturridge missed pointblank at the far post.
Berra did ok.
Hanley made the mistakes we all expected him to given his recent performances.
Fletcher again didn't make the effort. Let people run by him for the 2nd.

Why Paterson was dropped, I have no idea.
Why Berra came in for Martin and not for Hanley, I have no idea.
Why we picked our 5th best left back, I don't know.
Why we persist with Fletcher when he's clearly not up to it anymore, I don't know.

With better fullbacks and a better defensive midfield (both of which we have) then we would have done better. Why we went with the line up we did I really don't understand.

As for center back options specifically..
Berra seemed fine. Wasn't at fault for any of the goals, I'd keep him in.
Martin didn't really deserve to be dropped.
Hanley shouldn't be there when he's not playing. Hutton managed to still play well for us despite not playing for his club, Hanley has shown that he can't do the same.
Greer, despite his age is probably still on a par, if not better than Considine and Armstrong.
Kingsley could be worth a try. He's got the physique for it and seem quite 'safety first'.
Considine seem the most likely to come into the squad if Hanley were dropped.
Armstrong seems like he's worth a look, as with Considine.
Cooper is a terrible player, his game is mostly based around kicking people, which for the most part you can get away with in the Championship. Would be punished at international level tho.
Mulgrew is better in midfield, but if Greer, Considine and Armstrong all prove incapable then he has to be considered as a back line starter.
Fletcher (moving back from midfield) can't mark or track runners as it is. Would be a bombscare in defense.
Broadfoot probably would have been in with a shout, being a regular in the championship, but his recent tirade has put him firmly out of the picture for me.
Reynolds just hasn't developed. Plus he's too short to really play centerback at international level.
Wilson still trying to get back to looking like a half decent player it seems.
Souttar getting there, europa league exposure will have helped, but probably still a couple of years away. Wouldn't be against him being in the squad for the experience tho as the 4th CB.

So Martin and Berra still feel like our best 2 right now. We have other options to try, but they need tested. Those being: Kingsley, Considine, Anderson, Souttar.

Whoever we put in there, they'll need the support of better players around them than those that lined up on Friday.

[clarky1606]

5 minutes ago, Manno said:

I don't know why I didn't consider Kingsley. If he keeps getting a game for Swansea there would be no harm in him playing CB for us. 

I think he has more chance than Wilson of getting a regular place in the team. He plays left side of a back 3 for Swansea but can play as a LB or CB as well. 

[Marky]

6 minutes ago, Manno said:

I don't know why I didn't consider Kingsley. If he keeps getting a game for Swansea there would be no harm in him playing CB for us.

Probably because when he gets a game for Swansea it's as a left back.

[calmc92]

4 minutes ago, Ormond said:

Hanley is not good enough to play for Saints on his form over the last year. There, I've said it.

You're basing your opinion of them not being good enough for saints based on their performances when they are playing out of their depth at international level?

Them playing for Scotland is summed up below;

They are English Championship quality defenders(which they are) being thrown into an English Premier League team and expected to perform week in/week out.

[Ormond]

5 minutes ago, calmc92 said:

You're basing your opinion of them not being good enough for saints based on their performances when they are playing out of their depth at international level?

Them playing for Scotland is summed up below;

They are English Championship quality defenders(which they are) being thrown into an English Premier League team and expected to perform week in/week out.

I am basing it on a player who is not even good enough to hold down a place at a lower tier English side. The guy gets no game time for a reason. He is pish. You saying someone is a quality player who cannot get gametime for his club is laughable. 

[ProudScot]

28 minutes ago, Ormond said:

Hanley is not good enough to play for Saints on his form over the last year. There, I've said it.

You're right he isn't good enough for Southampton.

Hanley, although pish, would walk into all SPL defences - St Johnstone included.