Team against Malta

[borojock]

50 minutes ago, ceudmilefailte said:

Don't know what Iceland do, but a population of 350,000 and they can send a squad of 25 players who's name ends in son to France and nearly Brazil. What ever it is we should try it.

Have said in the past this sort of game was right for Kris Boyd Jordan Rhodes Lee Griffiths etc as they can only score against poor opposition. At least the normal poor opposition is trying to take points . Cant see Griffiths or Rhodes getting the sort of chances they score from here.

Agree on Iceland if the SFA had any sense they would be studying Iceland very closely and seeing whats been done to achieve their success as they have done better than us in two qualifying campaigns now so its no fluke also they have no superstars like us

Also agree on the natural finishers is ideal for this game, Fletcher does have strengths to his game but a natural finisher he is not, that's why id go with two upfront who can put chances away and then flood the box with crosses and through balls. Weve failed and struggled too often with these poorer teams lets give it a go as we need three points and a convincing start to this campaign

[Goozay]

we're definitely too shot-shy away to the weaker teams

Against Georgia we failed to register an attempt on target and against Girbaltar we were singing "can we have a shot on goal?" as the tippy-tappy was getting us nowhere.

As well as firing in crosses we should also have a shoot-on-sight policy, especially in the first 20 minutes. Ritchie, Brown, Morrison, D. Fletcher and Maloney are all decent strikers of the ball and we should be reguarly testing their keeper, even if its from range.

[munro7]

-------------------------------Gordon-----------------------------

Hutton-------------Martin--------------Hanley---------Robertson

----------------------Fletcher------------Bannan-------------------

Snodgrass---------------McCormack------------------Anya-------

------------------------------Fletcher---------------------------------

[Bannannan]

1 hour ago, munro7 said:

-------------------------------Gordon-----------------------------

Hutton-------------Martin--------------Hanley---------Robertson

----------------------Fletcher------------Bannan-------------------

Snodgrass---------------McCormack------------------Anya-------

------------------------------Fletcher---------------------------------

Naismith for Fletcher maybe.

[JECK]

2 hours ago, Goozay said:

we're definitely too shot-shy away to the weaker teams

Against Georgia we failed to register an attempt on target and against Girbaltar we were singing "can we have a shot on goal?" as the tippy-tappy was getting us nowhere.

As well as firing in crosses we should also have a shoot-on-sight policy, especially in the first 20 minutes. Ritchie, Brown, Morrison, D. Fletcher and Maloney are all decent strikers of the ball and we should be reguarly testing their keeper, even if its from range.

That 3rd paragraph is a belter. It's like some drivel that bonny78 would write

[ProudScot]

 

On ‎01‎/‎04‎/‎2016 at 10:44 PM, borojock said:

Agree on Iceland if the SFA had any sense they would be studying Iceland very closely and seeing whats been done to achieve their success as they have done better than us in two qualifying campaigns now so its no fluke also they have no superstars like us

Also agree on the natural finishers is ideal for this game, Fletcher does have strengths to his game but a natural finisher he is not, that's why id go with two upfront who can put chances away and then flood the box with crosses and through balls. Weve failed and struggled too often with these poorer teams lets give it a go as we need three points and a convincing start to this campaign

Iceland do key things correctly;

1) Send their youngsters abroad at an early age

2) Play youth

3) Play attacking attractive football

4) Have a summer football season

 

We do none of the above - To be fair we have played youth in the last 2 friendlies. I think we all expect that to be a one off though in reality.

[ceudmilefailte]

Think all this thread proves is that most Scotland supporters are about as forward thinking as the SFA. Most of the players suggested here will be well over 30 by the time the finals come round. One suggestion for  Tierney and that's  all we have along  with the usual suspects getting older. A world cup qualifier in Malta is about the best place we can get to start to build a team that might get us to the finals this lot have no chance. I would just as soon lose in Malta with a different squad of players than fail to qualify again with a tried and trusted squad of failures.

Think we might need to start looking out more eligible players no matter how tenuous the link.

[ErsatzThistle]

8 minutes ago, ceudmilefailte said:

Think all this thread proves is that most Scotland supporters are about as forward thinking as the SFA. Most of the players suggested here will be well over 30 by the time the finals come round. One suggestion for  Tierney and that's  all we have along  with the usual suspects getting older. A world cup qualifier in Malta is about the best place we can get to start to build a team that might get us to the finals this lot have no chance. I would just as soon lose in Malta with a different squad of players than fail to qualify again with a tried and trusted squad of failures.

Think we might need to start looking out more eligible players no matter how tenuous the link.

We are so desperate for a right back and a couple of central defenders that I'm starting to lean towards the granny rule approach - which I ordinarily hate. The situation really is that bad !

If it were upto me I'd call time on Shaun Maloney, Scott Brown, Steven Fletcher, Alan Hutton and Steven Whittaker. With the acute shortage of right backs, it looks like we'll have to carry on with the latter two however.

The future belongs to young players like Kieran Tierney, John McGinn, Oliver Burke, Andy Robertson and maybe Tony Watt.

[ceudmilefailte]

10 minutes ago, ErsatzThistle said:

We are so desperate for a right back and a couple of central defenders that I'm starting to lean towards the granny rule approach - which I ordinarily hate. The situation really is that bad !

If it were upto me I'd call time on Shaun Maloney, Scott Brown, Steven Fletcher, Alan Hutton and Steven Whittaker. With the acute shortage of right backs, it looks like we'll have to carry on with the latter two however.

The future belongs to young players like Kieran Tierney, John McGinn, Oliver Burke, Andy Robertson and maybe Tony Watt.

I'd add Anya, Morrison, Bannan, Martin, Mulgrew, Berra Griffiths and Rhodes to you call time list.

[borojock]

Its all good and well saying you would impose international retirement on these players but in the reality of the situation who do you replace them with that could come in and do a better job or even just as good.

As our national youth performances over the last few years have proven whats coming through in my humble opinion isn't as good and doesn't have much potential. I agree its not ideal having an aging team in anyway shape or form but its what you replace it with and the worrying thing is after you go past the top 2 or 3 players for each position what we have is less than mediocre and nowhere near International class. Give youth a chance - yes as long as it has some class or potential to become class which most of our youth doesn't have theres no point putting ids in there who aren't good enough and would get beat regularly

So from the last two posts were getting rid of - Shaun Maloney, Scott Brown, Steven Fletcher, Alan Hutton and Steven Whittaker, Anya, Morrison, Bannan, Martin, Mulgrew, Berra Griffiths and Rhodes

which consist of

3 of our 4 best centre backs (Martin, Berra, Mulgrew) - who are you replacing with Wilson, Cooper

Arguably our two best right backs (hutton, whittaker) - who are you replacing with Caddis, Paterson

Arguably three of our top striker (Griffiths, Rhodes, Fletcher) - who will replacing Watt, Cummings

Agree that the future has to heavily include Kieran Tierney, John McGinn, Oliver Burke, Andy Robertson but other than Robertson theres not much experience of first team football.

Stark reality beggers cant be choosers

 

[ErsatzThistle]

27 minutes ago, borojock said:

Its all good and well saying you would impose international retirement on these players but in the reality of the situation who do you replace them with that could come in and do a better job or even just as good.

As our national youth performances over the last few years have proven whats coming through in my humble opinion isn't as good and doesn't have much potential. I agree its not ideal having an aging team in anyway shape or form but its what you replace it with and the worrying thing is after you go past the top 2 or 3 players for each position what we have is less than mediocre and nowhere near International class. Give youth a chance - yes as long as it has some class or potential to become class which most of our youth doesn't have theres no point putting ids in there who aren't good enough and would get beat regularly

So from the last two posts were getting rid of - Shaun Maloney, Scott Brown, Steven Fletcher, Alan Hutton and Steven Whittaker, Anya, Morrison, Bannan, Martin, Mulgrew, Berra Griffiths and Rhodes

which consist of

3 of our 4 best centre backs (Martin, Berra, Mulgrew) - who are you replacing with Wilson, Cooper

Arguably our two best right backs (hutton, whittaker) - who are you replacing with Caddis, Paterson

Arguably three of our top striker (Griffiths, Rhodes, Fletcher) - who will replacing Watt, Cummings

Agree that the future has to heavily include Kieran Tierney, John McGinn, Oliver Burke, Andy Robertson but other than Robertson theres not much experience of first team football.

Stark reality beggers cant be choosers

 

Your being very selective there.with what I said.

I only want shot of Maloney (too old and not getting club football), Brown (he's through), S Fletcher (jinxed), Hutton, Whittaker and I forgot to add James Forrest who is just pish. And I did post that I recognised Hutton and Whittaker had to be in if there until decent alternatives come up.

By the way, John McGinn and Andy Robertson have actually played nearly the same amount of club games. Only about twenty five games between them when all their club appearances are totalled up.

Edited April 5, 2016 by ErsatzThistle

[borojock]

4 minutes ago, ErsatzThistle said:

Your being very selective there.with what I said.

I only want shot of Maloney (too old and not getting club football), Brown (he's through), S Fletcher (jinxed), Hutton, Whittaker and I forgot to add James Forrest who is just pish. And I did post that I recognised Hutton and Whittaker had to be in if there until decent alternatives come up.

By the way, John McGinn and Andy Robertson have actually played nearly the same amount of club games.

Please don't take the comments wrong way was more of the general rant rather than to the comments you made

I agree with the two points that you make that the future has too belong to the best up and coming players but sadly I feel there's not many others than the ones you pointed out and you cant rely on them too much. Also on your other point that's its desperate times in certain positions as pointed out on the right back role. I mentioned the GK position in 4 years I worry who were going to be left with

If I worked in the SFA I would be investing a lot more time, effort and resources into succession planning for players. It cant be a surprise to anyone that Hutton and Whittaker are getting older and performances will dip. We should have had a right back lined up 3 or 4 years ago who was a younger player and they should have been in and about the squad for years so they know coaches/managers/squad/training facility/experienced international matches, played x amount of friendlies, against the poorer nations like Gibraltar for example in competitive games. Then when that player comes into the squad full time we look for the next player who is 4 or 5 years younger than him. I would hire coaches who train, coach and develop the next age group as after under 21's too many players fall into a black hole and aren't developed into the next squad

[ErsatzThistle]

6 minutes ago, borojock said:

Please don't take the comments wrong way was more of the general rant rather than to the comments you made

I agree with the two points that you make that the future has too belong to the best up and coming players but sadly I feel there's not many others than the ones you pointed out and you cant rely on them too much. Also on your other point that's its desperate times in certain positions as pointed out on the right back role. I mentioned the GK position in 4 years I worry who were going to be left with

If I worked in the SFA I would be investing a lot more time, effort and resources into succession planning for players. It cant be a surprise to anyone that Hutton and Whittaker are getting older and performances will dip. We should have had a right back lined up 3 or 4 years ago who was a younger player and they should have been in and about the squad for years so they know coaches/managers/squad/training facility/experienced international matches, played x amount of friendlies, against the poorer nations like Gibraltar for example in competitive games. Then when that player comes into the squad full time we look for the next player who is 4 or 5 years younger than him. I would hire coaches who train, coach and develop the next age group as after under 21's too many players fall into a black hole and aren't developed into the next squad

 Ok.

Yeah, I agree the SFA rarely plan ahead, not that the  suits or many of their coaches care. They still insist on using the same old dead end coaching dogma from fifty years ago. None of that fancy, radical, continental nonsense ...................... that actually works.

And there's still this Craig Brown mentality of "make them 'serve their apprenticeship' in the Under 21s" towards young players and an "ach, he's got another campaign left in him, he's never let me down" attitude towards their old favourites - from both the management and also from some of the fans it has to be said.

[Goozay]

On Tuesday 05 April 2016 at 10:05 PM, ErsatzThistle said:

 Ok.

Yeah, I agree the SFA rarely plan ahead, not that the  suits or many of their coaches care. They still insist on using the same old dead end coaching dogma from fifty years ago. None of that fancy, radical, continental nonsense ...................... that actually works.

And there's still this Craig Brown mentality of "make them 'serve their apprenticeship' in the Under 21s" towards young players and an "ach, he's got another campaign left in him, he's never let me down" attitude towards their old favourites - from both the management and also from some of the fans it has to be said.

Interesting. So which players should have been called up for the recent friendlies but weren't because of this mentality?

[aaid]

On 5 April 2016 at 9:57 PM, borojock said:

If I worked in the SFA I would be investing a lot more time, effort and resources into succession planning for players. It cant be a surprise to anyone that Hutton and Whittaker are getting older and performances will dip. We should have had a right back lined up 3 or 4 years ago who was a younger player and they should have been in and about the squad for years so they know coaches/managers/squad/training facility/experienced international matches, played x amount of friendlies, against the poorer nations like Gibraltar for example in competitive games. 

That's all very well but misses one key point, who exactly are these mythical right backs that we should have been bringing along?

[borojock]

5 hours ago, aaid said:

That's all very well but misses one key point, who exactly are these mythical right backs that we should have been bringing along?

The best right backs that are under 25 and over 21 we need a dedicated coaching network that is working on a consistent basis with these players who knows the players strengths, weaknesses, capabilities, personality and the best way to get the most out of them and improve their weaknesses. As said in the original post we have to work with the next age group that is coming through much more so we have contingency plans when players who have been in the squad reach retirement age. After they have passed the under 21 age level as its either they go into the squad or nothing happens. There should be B games, get them involved in the squads (as strachen has done with Gauld and a few others), dedicated coaching sessions etc

Now you asked for names and a quick look through i'd suggest the players we should have been spending more time, resources and efforts on for RB a couple of years ago now would have been - Callum Paterson, Jack Grimmer, Liam Palmer, Donald Love, Ziggy Gordon, Jordan McGhee

Not great but sadly that seems to be the best that we have and what we will be left with when Hutton, Whittaker and Bardsley are gone

If you have any better suggestions would love to hear

[aaid]

39 minutes ago, borojock said:

 

Now you asked for names and a quick look through i'd suggest the players we should have been spending more time, resources and efforts on for RB a couple of years ago now would have been - Callum Paterson, Jack Grimmer, Liam Palmer, Donald Love, Ziggy Gordon, Jordan McGhee

Not great but sadly that seems to be the best that we have and what we will be left with when Hutton, Whittaker and Bardsley are gone

If you have any better suggestions would love to hear

None of those players are good enough now let alone 3 or 4 years ago - Paterson might be in the future but as it currently stands, Hutton and Whittaker are better than any of them and the point is we are trying to qualify *now*.

We can all play the game of googling for right backs.

If you look back 3 or 4 years ago our regular right backs were Ryan Jack - now a central midfielder and Duffie who is still at Falkirk.   

Strachan would be much better looking at whether he can get a left back or a right midfielder to play right back than any of the ones you've suggested for the future. 

Jack Grimmer - now I know you're nor being serious. 

[borojock]

21 hours ago, aaid said:

None of those players are good enough now let alone 3 or 4 years ago - Paterson might be in the future but as it currently stands, Hutton and Whittaker are better than any of them and the point is we are trying to qualify *now*.

We can all play the game of googling for right backs.

If you look back 3 or 4 years ago our regular right backs were Ryan Jack - now a central midfielder and Duffie who is still at Falkirk.  

Strachan would be much better looking at whether he can get a left back or a right midfielder to play right back than any of the ones you've suggested for the future.

Jack Grimmer - now I know you're nor being serious.

The point I was originally trying to make was I think the SFA would be well served by have a succession planning strategy in place where the best players between 21ish and 25 are developed through personalised coaching sessions by a dedicated coaching network, possible B games, experiencing the the first team squad in a competitive environment, getting them face time with world class players in there position etc. Prehaps a concentrated effort of the mentioned over a couple of year period would have developed the skill level that they currently have. As the example I gave was the right back position in three years we will be more than likely without Whittaker, Hutton and Bardsley and we should have had a plan of action in place 3 or 5 years ago by bringing the next generation through. I don't think this only goes for right back position I can see us being in a similar position with GK in 4 years

I accept the names that I gave weren't international class but in the stark reality of the situation are probably the best we have. I like the thinking of turning a left back into  right back position but how many games have Robertson, Tierney, Shinnie, Douglas, Wallace, Forsyth played at right back in their career? What the chances of their club side playing them at right back? It would be highly dangerous playing them in a totally unfamiliar position in a competitive game

Perhaps as you asked me to do you could give us the names of the players you think who could be converted to right back from right midfield

Easy to be dismissive of others ideas a little less difficult being constructive with your own ideas

[noctonjock]

Every team has a weak link and ours is right back and one central defender , don't think we've too much to worry about  tbh . Good goalkeepers . Decent midfield and enough up front to worry most teams . Could be better but then again could be far worse , oh and just keep Hutton at RB don't play a left footed player there 

[aaid]

23 minutes ago, borojock said:

The point I was originally trying to make was I think the SFA would be well served by have a succession planning strategy in place where the best players between 21ish and 25 are developed through personalised coaching sessions by a dedicated coaching network, possible B games, experiencing the the first team squad in a competitive environment, getting them face time with world class players in there position etc. Prehaps a concentrated effort of the mentioned over a couple of year period would have developed the skill level that they currently have. As the example I gave was the right back position in three years we will be more than likely without Whittaker, Hutton and Bardsley and we should have had a plan of action in place 3 or 5 years ago by bringing the next generation through. I don't think this only goes for right back position I can see us being in a similar position with GK in 4 years

I accept the names that I gave weren't international class but in the stark reality of the situation are probably the best we have. I like the thinking of turning a left back into  right back position but how many games have Robertson, Tierney, Shinnie, Douglas, Wallace, Forsyth played at right back in their career? What the chances of their club side playing them at right back? It would be highly dangerous playing them in a totally unfamiliar position in a competitive game

Perhaps as you asked me to do you could give us the names of the players you think who could be converted to right back from right midfield

Easy to be dismissive of others ideas a little less difficult being constructive with your own ideas

And my point is that if the SFA had done this, no amount of specialist training or exposure to world class players would have made any difference if the players in question fundamentally weren't good enough.

Maybe you think the SFA should have forced Aberdeen to play Ryan Jack at right back as the SFA had identified him as the long term replacement for Alan Hutton?  Not having a pop at Aberdeen btw, they are quite right to develop players that best suit the players and their requirements. 

The SFA are responsible for taking good quality promising club players with potential and introducing them into International football.  It's the clubs responsibility to produce players of sufficient potent trial in the first place.  If they don't do that there's very little that the SFA can do, short of exploring other avenues such as the grandparent rule.

I'd much rather have an experienced adaptable international playing "out of position"* than playing someone who is a "specialist" in their position but isn't anywhere good enough to play International football.   The player playing out of position may not be as effective as they would be in their favoured position but they would be better than the player that isn't good enough. 

Here's a suggestion, Ikechi Anya.  I believe he's played as a full back in the past and I also think he's comfortable on the left hand side.  With the right midfielder in front of him, you might even get some benefit of him in attack as an overlapping full back. 

*assuming that doesn't just create another problem somewhere else like moving Russell Martin out of Central Defence. 

[Bannannan]

1 hour ago, aaid said:

And my point is that if the SFA had done this, no amount of specialist training or exposure to world class players would have made any difference if the players in question fundamentally weren't good enough.

Maybe you think the SFA should have forced Aberdeen to play Ryan Jack at right back as the SFA had identified him as the long term replacement for Alan Hutton?  Not having a pop at Aberdeen btw, they are quite right to develop players that best suit the players and their requirements. 

The SFA are responsible for taking good quality promising club players with potential and introducing them into International football.  It's the clubs responsibility to produce players of sufficient potent trial in the first place.  If they don't do that there's very little that the SFA can do, short of exploring other avenues such as the grandparent rule.

I'd much rather have an experienced adaptable international playing "out of position"* than playing someone who is a "specialist" in their position but isn't anywhere good enough to play International football.   The player playing out of position may not be as effective as they would be in their favoured position but they would be better than the player that isn't good enough. 

Here's a suggestion, Ikechi Anya.  I believe he's played as a full back in the past and I also think he's comfortable on the left hand side.  With the right midfielder in front of him, you might even get some benefit of him in attack as an overlapping full back. 

*assuming that doesn't just create another problem somewhere else like moving Russell Martin out of Central Defence. 

Cmon,Anya's tackles are worse than Barry's.

[ErsatzThistle]

1 hour ago, noctonjock said:

Every team has a weak link and ours is right back and one central defender , don't think we've too much to worry about  tbh . Good goalkeepers . Decent midfield and enough up front to worry most teams . Could be better but then again could be far worse , oh and just keep Hutton at RB don't play a left footed player there 

Aye, our group opponents will be worried sick about our world class strike force of Steven Fletcher, Steven Naismith, Leigh Griffiths and Chris Martin. 

We're hopeless up front. 

[aaid]

47 minutes ago, Bannannan said:

Cmon,Anya's tackles are worse than Barry's.

I think he generally plays more as a full back than a winger for Watford, not that he plays that much these days. 

[Bannannan]

7 minutes ago, aaid said:

I think he generally plays more as a full back than a winger for Watford, not that he plays that much these days. 

The position he has played the least is his best,on the right wing.But as you said out of the mix at the moment.

[noctonjock]

20 hours ago, ErsatzThistle said:

Aye, our group opponents will be worried sick about our world class strike force of Steven Fletcher, Steven Naismith, Leigh Griffiths and Chris Martin. 

We're hopeless up front. 

I didn't say world class I said enough up front to worry . I include Snodgrass , Anya and Ritchie and Mccormack  as up front also