exile Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Some familiar arguments coming into play today - risks of leaving - families and businesses thousands of pounds worse off - the need to conform with their rules even if you're not in the club - the grand tradition of being a player on the world stage, let's not be isolationist - the best of both worlds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huddersfield Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 I'm out :-) Personally I am signing up to 'Labour Leave' (crap name i agree). I have been inherently anti-EEC/EU since reading Tony Benn in the early 80s & I think one of the most important potential contributions to this debate can come from the left. Being anti-EU is not a "Little Englander" statement, but from the left is a commentary on the fact that with it we have an oppressive organisation that sees the forces of Capital as sacrosanct. TTIP will, whatever people say, open the door to US Health Companies & the like buying the NHS, will undoubtedly lead to the erosion of worker's rights and (as to an extent already happens) means that our legal, democratic & social structures will float on the tide of corporate interest for evermore. I think the left that I see have reacted to the Tory right position with a "well if they think that we have to disagree" perspective rather than actually trying to understand what is needed for a fair society. I don't pretend it's not a risk, but personally would rather vote in line (as I did in the Labour leadership election) with what is fundamentally right & principled rather than what is safe & keeps everything ticking along. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haggis_trap Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 (edited) My opinion is that we are much better off in the EU. Arguably the EU is what allows small nations like Scotland (or Holland / Finland / Luxembourg / Croatia etc) to have their seat on the international stage.The benefits of the EU are fairly obvious - free movement and trade with our EU neighbours. Negotiating individual trade agreements with 27 other nations would be time consuming, expensive and slow. The amount of money the EU costs us is small (1% of GDP). Indeed the UK gets 2/3rds of that back via funding and a generous rebate etc. I would also argue that the EU has helped play a role in bringing peace to Europe since world war 2 ? Despite what UKIP claim the UK does well out of the EU : we are not in the euro currency, out of the schengen zone, get a generous rebate and have numerous opt-outs (such as the working time directive).Of course the EU is not perfect - but then again it is trying to find common ground and agreement between 28 states. Which of course is a near impossible task to keep everyone happy all of the time. So of course it will be a slightly mad and at time undemocratic organisation. However the benefits outweigh the downside IMHO.... It is interesting to note that *all* of the Scottish political parties are going to be backing the campaign to remain in the EU. Even Ruth Davidson said the Scottish Tories 100% wish to remain in the EU. As do the SNP, Lib Dems, Scottish Labour and Greens. Decent article below : I would argue most people don't actually no very much about the EU ?http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2015/07/economist-explains-20?fsrc=scn/tw/te/bl/ed/everythingyouneedtoknowabouteuropeanpoliticalunion Edited October 12, 2015 by Haggis_trap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armchair Bob Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 (edited) I suspect that this time round I am like the 'low information voter' who swung it for No in the indyref. I don't really know much about the pros and cons of the EU but my gut feeling is to stay in. I might read up on it and be swayed for withdrawl, but to be honest, unlike Scottish self-determination, I don't really care either way. I'll probably ignore all the publicity and go into the voting booth and vote to stay without really being able to say why beyond a vague 'better to be in the club' sentiment. For the leave campaign to get the likes of me to vote out, I would need two things - one, a disgust of the EU, which could perhaps be generated through verified and heavily propagandised tales of systematic corruption and waste, and two, a love of the UK as an autonomous unit - good luck with that second one. Edited October 12, 2015 by Armchair Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haggis_trap Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 (edited) ^ agree : most folk (including myself) don't know much about the EU. by the time the votes comes I am sure we will though SNP, Lib Dems, Labour and Greens all wish to remain. indeed when push comes to shove even David Cameron will be campaigning to remain in. he doesn't want history to record him as the PM responsible for EU exit. It is generally UKIP and the lunatic right wing 'little Englander' Tories that want out. indeed the whole EU referendum is aimed primarily to keep the Tory party together..... Edited October 12, 2015 by Haggis_trap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hampden_loon2878 Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 I will vote to come out as the EU/westminster/Snp alliance has all but destroyed a once thriving fishing industry, infact i would go as far as saying its bordeline illegal what thay have done and before anyone tries "its nothing to do with the SNP" i can assure you it is, the MPA's which the are away to impose on the fleet have Further more shown them not to listen to anything the fishermen say as they just bend over for the geeen hippy mob.i am all for the snp but their handling of the industry has been a joke,,,, for years they built up support in banff and buchan on the back of the arguement they were going to come out of the common fishing policy then as soon as they cement support in other parts of the country the fishermen were left out in the cold, the snp changed their policy and wanted to remain part of the CFP and jumped into bed with the greens,,, i may be wrong but northeast scotland will want to come out of the EU as a means of coming out of the CFP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mee Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 from what I understand now, The Eu has gradually become the basis for most of the legislation in this country. With the UK and Scottish parliaments taking the European acts and turning them into laws. Makes this a very important referendum. I discovered one of their new "rules" this week when I bought a new coffee machine. They now by law have to switch off after 40 mins, bit of a pain when you want to have a pot of coffee on the go one morning. I am not a fan of interference like that into minute areas of my life. At the moment I'm a don't know which way I will vote and will need to do some more reading. I don't however get how someone can be against the UK parliament stating that we don't have a voice yet be in favour of the euro parliament where we definitely don't have a voice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haggis_trap Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 (edited) ^ most EU directives must implemented into a countries law by each member state. so there are plenty paths for opt outs and tweaks by westminster or holyrood. I will vote to come out as the EU/westminster/Snp alliance has all but destroyed a once thriving fishing industry Hmmmmm : In general fishing industry seem to be split on the common fisheries policy. During the Scottish referendum the "Scottish fishermen's association" specifically highlighted exiting the EU as a major risk to the industry. So it is not so clear cut that EU membership is bad for fishing industry.Look at the cod wars with Iceland - the EU backed Scottish fishermen claims that Iceland has been over fishing stocks and as result banned Icelandic imports and landings.Either way : how do you sustainably manage a resource like fish long term without co-operating with our nations ? Edited October 12, 2015 by Haggis_trap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bzzzz Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 I want England to vote to leave and us to vote to stay in. Then we can get our 2nd referendum and gtf out of this damned union. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haggis_trap Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 ^ if Scotland pre-signed up to the EU (or even euro as well ?) in advance of any 2nd referendum them the debate would certainly be very different. especially in that scenario you describe. much of the uncertainty gone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bzzzz Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 ^ if Scotland pre-signed up to the EU (or even euro as well ?) in advance of any 2nd referendum them the debate would certainly be very different. especially in that scenario you describe. much of the uncertainty gone. Agreed. You'd probably find again that the UK government would be utterly obstructive to any discussions that the SG might want to have with the EU. The lessons have been learned from the first one, the second, if we get or need it, will not fail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haggis_trap Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 ^ the "EU scenario" is also the only material change in circumstance I can think that could likely merit a 2nd referendum in the next 5-10 years.there is no point in a 2nd referendum unless we are sure we will win it this time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hampden_loon2878 Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 "Either way : how do you sustainably manage a resource like fish long term without co-operating with our nations ?"Simple we would have full control over our waters and who fishes in it, much like norway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bzzzz Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 " Simple we would have full control over our waters and who fishes in it, much like norway Or if we had direct representation we would actually have a voice at the negotiating table rather than being misrepresented or under represented by people we didn't vote for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 I'm out :-) Personally I am signing up to 'Labour Leave' (crap name i agree). I have been inherently anti-EEC/EU since reading Tony Benn in the early 80s & I think one of the most important potential contributions to this debate can come from the left. Being anti-EU is not a "Little Englander" statement, but from the left is a commentary on the fact that with it we have an oppressive organisation that sees the forces of Capital as sacrosanct. TTIP will, whatever people say, open the door to US Health Companies & the like buying the NHS, will undoubtedly lead to the erosion of worker's rights and (as to an extent already happens) means that our legal, democratic & social structures will float on the tide of corporate interest for evermore. I think the left that I see have reacted to the Tory right position with a "well if they think that we have to disagree" perspective rather than actually trying to understand what is needed for a fair society. I don't pretend it's not a risk, but personally would rather vote in line (as I did in the Labour leadership election) with what is fundamentally right & principled rather than what is safe & keeps everything ticking along. I've been out for a long time. Historically only a tiny minority on this board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Scotland's future in Scotland's hands. We pay more in than we get back. Brussels is ran by faceless. bureaucrats 500 miles who don't care about us. Look at the forced policies on Ireland, Portugal and Greece. Sharing and pooling resources makes us better off and keeps us safer so we're better together. The numbers don't add up. Better being in a club working within, co-operating and trading with our historical links. I'm a soft Remain/Stay but could be persuaded to change. Maybe some flag waving and protests outside BBC will work with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haggis_trap Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 (edited) " Simple we would have full control over our waters and who fishes in it, much like norway Fish migrate between territorial waters. Modern trawlers are bigger than ever. How does your proposed solution help manage stocks ? What do we do if other nations like Norway or Iceland over fish supplies ? I appreciate the common fishing policy is controversial - but many fishermen are in favor of it. Indeed the EU helped take a stand against Iceland over fishing Cod stocks. "Scottish fishermen deliver EU warning on independence" http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11049665/Scottish-fishermen-deliver-EU-warning-on-independence.html Edited October 12, 2015 by Haggis_trap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 With so many nationalists having a complete stauner over Norway it's going to be interesting to see why they now about turn and don't want to be similar if they campaign to vote to stay in eu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hampden_loon2878 Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 For one, iceland and the faroes islands please themselves what they catch as was proven a few years back when overnight they increased their quota with no Consultation, Second the fish that migrate are mainly pelagic mainly makerel,, excluding iceland and faroes the vast majority is caught in scottish and irish,waters, even the norgies carch most of their palagic in our waters.... Our fishing industry should be thriving even more that the norgies...its our white fish sector that is struggling big time,,we have hardly no quota to catch, whilst the french,Spanish,dutch,german,danish,norwegian,Swedish all plunder our waters with very little resteictions imposed unlike our marine scotland which are a bunch of cowboys.. The reason most fisermen were against independence is because they though the fishing industry would be sold down the river as they now mistrust the snp and to an extent i understand that.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haggis_trap Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 ^ the scottish fishermens association also wished to remain in the EU. now I appreciate that doesn't mean *all* fishermen feel the same way. the common fishing policy is clearly very controversial and emotive. however many fishermen do, on balance, wish to remain in the EU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hampden_loon2878 Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 We will see what comes out of this campaign i would bet my house that the fishing industry would prefer to leave the eu....the crab, lobster and shellfish in general will want to stay in.. As for the whitefish sector they would want to leave it with a passion ^ the scottish fishermens association also wished to remain in the EU. now I appreciate that doesn't mean *all* fishermen feel the same way. the common fishing policy is clearly very controversial and emotive. however many fishermen do, on balance, wish to remain in the EU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exile Posted October 12, 2015 Author Share Posted October 12, 2015 I suspect that this time round I am like the 'low information voter' who swung it for No in the indyref. I don't really know much about the pros and cons of the EU but my gut feeling is to stay in. I might read up on it and be swayed for withdrawl, but to be honest, unlike Scottish self-determination, I don't really care either way. I'll probably ignore all the publicity and go into the voting booth and vote to stay without really being able to say why beyond a vague 'better to be in the club' sentiment. For the leave campaign to get the likes of me to vote out, I would need two things - one, a disgust of the EU, which could perhaps be generated through verified and heavily propagandised tales of systematic corruption and waste, and two, a love of the UK as an autonomous unit - good luck with that second one. It's certainly an interesting parallel - remembering how many wondered how there were all those undecided voters at the indyref - how there was this fundamental issue and they couldn't decide or maybe didn't think it mattered enough either way - and yet here we are, it's easy to imagine being persuaded either way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rossy Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 I notice already that reporters on media outlets like BBc 5Live are tripping over themselves to give both sides a fair crack of the whip. I'm starting to realise that their bias during the referendum campaign was mostly based on casual, detached ignorance of the issues. With both EU referendum campaigns being orchestrated out of London, expect much more balanced coverage from the BBC etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haggis_trap Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 I have my popcorn ready for project fear 2.0 being unleashed on england-shire "David Cameron plans EU campaign focusing on 'risky' impact of UK exit"http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jun/26/david-cameron-eu-campaign-risky-impact-uk-exit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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