Opposition Debate

[Scunnered]

An excellent post as always Scotlad .

[Gee]

Katy Clark , Campbell, Cryer, Skinner, Mearns , McDonnell, Corbyn, Lavery, Hopkins, Riordan, Hamilton, Caton,Wood, Mitchell.

All come to mind from last parliament, but there will be more. But this is all pointless "my dads bigger than your dad" stuff. There's no desire for socialism in either parliament.

You voting for the person you funcy the most?

[Scunnered]

You voting for the person you funcy the most?

I'm voting for the only candidate who isn't evil. The SNP candidate is a nasty piece of work... By any parties standard.

[Gee]

I'm voting for the only candidate who isn't evil. The SNP candidate is a nasty piece of work... By any parties standard.

Fair enough. I don't know enough about the candidates. Evil sounds a bit much, but I think would vote for Katy.

[Gee]

However, this is not my constituency. So I will vote SNP, with a view to getting a left wing Labour government in Westminster, which will cooperate with Holyrood and realise our country's aspirations. Fingers crossed.

[Scunnered]

Evil sounds a bit much

Perhaps. It worries me just how useless this woman who could very well represent me is. She's a proven liar, first for a failed smear against Katy, and then for claiming that local Greens were instructed by their party to vote SNP... She was called out on this immediately by Greens in attendance at the meeting she said it at. She also tried to claim that Katy Clark had requested a meeting they were both taking part in was not in a head to head format, another lie, the organisers (including me, who had to go around on the day of the meeting informing people of this mistruth on the various platforms Gibson had spouted it) had requested the candidates speak separately to allow people maximum time to have their questions answered. Any meetings at all that she attends she claims she is being heckled... Asking questions is not heckling, although granted I was at a meeting last week were people were shouting at her... Out of frustration at her not answering questions.

At a hustings a couple of months ago she infamously gave the worst answer to a question I've ever heard. A Green member asked her "you're not going to win my vote on policy, what are your personal ambitions for the constituency?". The answer to a letter: "SNP party policy".

And of course there was her famous letter to Tory voters informing them that they have nothing to fear from the SNP... The one thing Gibson and I can agree on I guess

[Lamia]

I'm voting for the only socialist candidate in my constituency. And yes, we're both guilty of voting for more of the same. I wouldn't claim otherwise.

Ok so we have now established that I have no alternative - now maybe you will stop criticising my choice since I have not criticised yours

I don't believe in everything the SNP do but they have done more things I believe in than any other party that can make a difference and crucially they believe Scotland would be better running its own affairs. And I have no Socialist alternative to vote for even if I wanted and Ed Miliband certainly isn't one - he is plastic and can't even act real

Edited April 18, 2015 by Lamia

[Return of Yermaw]

Perhaps. It worries me just how useless this woman who could very well represent me is. She's a proven liar, first for a failed smear against Katy, and then for claiming that local Greens were instructed by their party to vote SNP... She was called out on this immediately by Greens in attendance at the meeting she said it at. She also tried to claim that Katy Clark had requested a meeting they were both taking part in was not in a head to head format, another lie, the organisers (including me, who had to go around on the day of the meeting informing people of this mistruth on the various platforms Gibson had spouted it) had requested the candidates speak separately to allow people maximum time to have their questions answered. Any meetings at all that she attends she claims she is being heckled... Asking questions is not heckling, although granted I was at a meeting last week were people were shouting at her... Out of frustration at her not answering questions.

At a hustings a couple of months ago she infamously gave the worst answer to a question I've ever heard. A Green member asked her "you're not going to win my vote on policy, what are your personal ambitions for the constituency?". The answer to a letter: "SNP party policy".

And of course there was her famous letter to Tory voters informing them that they have nothing to fear from the SNP... The one thing Gibson and I can agree on I guess

My brother was at a (Ardrossan maybe?) hustling last week or maybe week before (sorry - this is third hand from my mum ala French Ambassador meeting) but the one thing that was clear from the account was that Gibson was subjected to sexist drivel that wasn't in any way equally directed at Clark. My brother, who blindly votes Labour, said a few of what seemed like the older labour brigade were shouting about her to go away and "push a pram" when she was speaking and this to him seemed quite orchestrated. So based on that, and according to my brother, she is the recipient of heckling and I would suggest it is not wholly down to "frustration" - that's quite a spin even by a Clark aide standards .

And does Gibson not live in Kilbirnie? if she lived in Beith, I would maybe understand your evil description...........

Edited April 18, 2015 by Return of Yermaw

[Scunnered]

My brother was at a (Ardrossan maybe?) hustling last week or maybe week before (sorry - this is third hand from my mum ala French Ambassador meeting) but the one thing that was clear from the account was that Gibson was subjected to sexist drivel that wasn't in any way equally directed at Clark. My brother, who blindly votes Labour, said a few of what seemed like the older labour brigade were shouting about her to go away and "push a pram" when she was speaking and this to him seemed quite orchestrated. So based on that, and according to my brother, she is the recipient of heckling and I would suggest it is not wholly down to "frustration" - that's quite a spin even by a Clark aide standards .

And does Gibson not live in Kilbirnie? if she lived in Beith, I would maybe understand your evil description...........

Ok... Based on your brothers account I'm conducting spin because she was unfortunately and conveniently heckled at one meeting that I wasn't in attendance. Super

I feel it's worth noting that I campaigned against Gibson in 2010 (while I was an SNP member), she ran a dirty campaign then, and she's running one now.

[Scunnered]

Ok so we have now established that I have no alternative - now maybe you will stop criticising my choice since I have not criticised yours

I don't believe in everything the SNP do but they have done more things I believe in than any other party that can make a difference and crucially they believe Scotland would be better running its own affairs. And I have no Socialist alternative to vote for even if I wanted and Ed Miliband certainly isn't one - he is plastic and can't even act real

Golly gosh

I feel I was being quite reasonable and respectful with you last night, I didn't get the same courtesy... Seemingly for the small sin of thinking someone else won a debate.

[Stapes]

Your first paragraph is no different from the SNP who are whipped to party line harder than any other party.

Certainly don't recognise that at a council level. I was never, ever told how to vote on an issue. The Labour councillors, however, we're ruled withan iron rod, even on issues where their dissent would not cause even the slightest ripple, locally or nationally. I always felt it completely undermined the democratic process.

[Scunnered]

Certainly don't recognise that at a council level. I was never, ever told how to vote on an issue. The Labour councillors, however, we're ruled withan iron rod, even on issues where their dissent would not cause even the slightest ripple, locally or nationally. I always felt it completely undermined the democratic process.

The new regulations were only voted on a month ago. Dissenters will be disciplined.

[Stapes]

The new regulations were only voted on a month ago. Dissenters will be disciplined.

At times I felt we were maybe a little lax, and needed to be whipped, but that generally doesn't play we'll locally. Having dissent can actually play well for a party - a councillor can get a lot of kudos locally for voting against the party line. And when it happens I'm guessing it's quite often orchestrated. Haven't read the regs, but tbh, some discipline is needed. A party filled with loose cannons will self-destruct very quickly. That's why - see my previous post - Labour held it together for so many years in Scotland.

[Scunnered]

I couldn't argue with you on a local level, your knowledge far surpasses mine. But at a parliamentary level the SNP have very few problems with dissent... I'm sure I read recently that since 2011 possibly 2007 not one SNP MSP has voted against party line... Which is remarkable given they've made some horrendous decisions. On top of that their record of dealing with the rare dissenters is despicable, their treatment of the late great Margo was disgusting for one.

Given the number of Labour politicians who go against the whip and are not disciplined, I can only assume that Labour do not have similar draconian measures at Parliament level that the SNP have.

[Ally Bongo]

I couldn't argue with you on a local level, your knowledge far surpasses mine. But at a parliamentary level the SNP have very few problems with dissent... I'm sure I read recently that since 2011 possibly 2007 not one SNP MSP has voted against party line... Which is remarkable given they've made some horrendous decisions. On top of that their record of dealing with the rare dissenters is despicable, their treatment of the late great Margo was disgusting for one.

Given the number of Labour politicians who go against the whip and are not disciplined, I can only assume that Labour do not have similar draconian measures at Parliament level that the SNP have.

The bottom line for the SNP is Independence for Scotland

Independence takes precedence over everything else

Once Scotland is Independent the party can have as many dissenters within it over other issues as it likes

Until then, as teeth grinding as it might seem to some, a united front must be obtained as any infighting can damage the ultimate goal

This is why many of us are prepared to overlook some SNP issues as quite frankly badger all else matters until we get what is primary

[Wine bibber]

Katy Clark , Campbell, Cryer, Skinner, Mearns , McDonnell, Corbyn, Lavery, Hopkins, Riordan, Hamilton, Caton,Wood, Mitchell.

All come to mind from last parliament, but there will be more. But this is all pointless "my dads bigger than your dad" stuff. There's no desire for socialism in either parliament.

Please please look up the definition of socialism before we all die

.At least 2 people here are members of the Labour party FFS .The British or Scottish Labour party have not even embraced the basic qualities of the left for 32 years let alone a socialist policy. We have 2 socialist party's in Scotland.1 of which you claim to have been a member of at one time They would definitely regard themselves as socialists ,They even have the wit to include the name in their title,which i always thought was a bit of a giveaway.I don't see Carolyn Leckie, Rosie or Sheriden in your list ,perhaps the others are members.Compare the political parties with our European equivalents in terms of policy ,doctrine and belief.This will give you a more realistic scope as to the reality of political party's leaning towards left or right.

As for the labour party,they have just spent the last 2 years fighting on a platform with their best Tory and Liberal pals in a dirty tricks campaign against the basic right to a country's self determination .The most rudimentary socialist principle of all after international racial equality.

70 Labour mp's employ workers on zero hours contracts and the majority send their children to the most exclusive private schools,yet these people are able to convince you they are left leaning.You must be joking.Don't look to closely at Clark ,you will not like what you find.

Finally how many ex Labour "socialists" or "left leaning " members of the party inhabit the House of Lords.You can give us the answer when you have done your swotting over socialism.

[Scunnered]

You haven't been following the conversation before getting your knickers in a twist. Clearly.

Edit: Before steaming in I'd consider very carefully. Last time you went on a little tangent against me it was highly embarrassing for you. I'd hate to see that again, I do like you so

Edited April 18, 2015 by Scunnered

[Wine bibber]

You haven't been following the conversation before getting your knickers in a twist. Clearly.

Whatever ...the numbers in the HOS would be good if you can be bothered

[Wine bibber]

The bottom line for the SNP is Independence for Scotland

Independence takes precedence over everything else

Once Scotland is Independent the party can have as many dissenters within it over other issues as it likes

Until then, as teeth grinding as it might seem to some, a united front must be obtained as any infighting can damage the ultimate goal

This is why many of us are prepared to overlook some SNP issues as quite frankly badger all else matters until we get what is primary

Agree with you Ally.Every word

[Wine bibber]

I couldn't argue with you on a local level, your knowledge far surpasses mine. But at a parliamentary level the SNP have very few problems with dissent... I'm sure I read recently that since 2011 possibly 2007 not one SNP MSP has voted against party line... Which is remarkable given they've made some horrendous decisions. On top of that their record of dealing with the rare dissenters is despicable, their treatment of the late great Margo was disgusting for one.

Given the number of Labour politicians who go against the whip and are not disciplined, I can only assume that Labour do not have similar draconian measures at Parliament level that the SNP have.

Yes would agree with you on this one pretty shameful .As Ally says nobody is saying the SNP is perfect.All members disagree with something.

[Wine bibber]

You haven't been following the conversation before getting your knickers in a twist. Clearly.

Edit: Before steaming in I'd consider very carefully. Last time you went on a little tangent against me it was highly embarrassing for you. I'd hate to see that again, I do like you so

When ???. I am actually trying to help you not make a fool of yourself with lack of knowledge to be honest(you did vote yes after all) and remind you that certain people are watching .I don't read all your posts but i am pleased to see you have listened to good advice.

[Scunnered]

When ???. I am actually trying to help you not make a fool of yourself with lack of knowledge to be honest(you did vote yes after all) and remind you that certain people are watching .I don't read all your posts but i am pleased to see you have listened to good advice.

Good... Lord.

[Wine bibber]

Good... Lord.

Freudian slip there eh ?Good house of Lords was it.Come on your not a member of the Labour party any more.

Relax i'l get the figures later then but i'm off to the rugger .Come on Hawick

[Scunnered]

Freudian slip there eh ?Good house of Lords was it.Come on your not a member of the Labour party any more.

Relax i'l get the figures later then but i'm off to the rugger .Come on Hawick

Ok

I don't believe for a second you're this mental. You're at the windup. Bravo, you got me

[scotlad]

Please please look up the definition of socialism before we all die

.At least 2 people here are members of the Labour party FFS .The British or Scottish Labour party have not even embraced the basic qualities of the left for 32 years let alone a socialist policy. We have 2 socialist party's in Scotland.1 of which you claim to have been a member of at one time They would definitely regard themselves as socialists ,They even have the wit to include the name in their title,which i always thought was a bit of a giveaway.I don't see Carolyn Leckie, Rosie or Sheriden in your list ,perhaps the others are members.Compare the political parties with our European equivalents in terms of policy ,doctrine and belief.This will give you a more realistic scope as to the reality of political party's leaning towards left or right.

As for the labour party,they have just spent the last 2 years fighting on a platform with their best Tory and Liberal pals in a dirty tricks campaign against the basic right to a country's self determination .The most rudimentary socialist principle of all after international racial equality.

70 Labour mp's employ workers on zero hours contracts and the majority send their children to the most exclusive private schools,yet these people are able to convince you they are left leaning.You must be joking.Don't look to closely at Clark ,you will not like what you find.

Finally how many ex Labour "socialists" or "left leaning " members of the party inhabit the House of Lords.You can give us the answer when you have done your swotting over socialism.

Scunnered was referring to MPs not MSPs, hence why he didn't mention Carolyn Leckie, Rosie Kane or Tommy Sheridan (although none of those three have been elected MSPs for nearly eight years).

He did also concede that there are no socialist parties with any presence in the House of Commons but there are MPs who are personally, in his view, socialists.