A Theory

[Orraloon]

They're alright once they come out of their shell.

Especially if they are cooked with a wee bit chilli and loads of garlic.

Edited April 13, 2015 by Orraloon

[Jagtag]

I wouldn't call Hansen a flop necessarily, he would have had a lot more caps had Stein not gone for Miller and McLeish as the first choice centre back partnership. The right choice IMHO as although Hansen was probably a better player than McLeish at the time, Miller/McLeish was a better partnership than Miller/Hansen.

you've had it when the Sheep mafia read that. I had the nerve to say it once and got about 100 replies and death threats.

I said and i stick by it that If Mark Lawrenson had a Scottish Gran instead of Irish the Miller and McLeish would have struggled to get 20 caps each. a decent partnership in central defence is better than a world class player playing with someone who doesn't understand his game. That's what we had.

Edited April 13, 2015 by Jagtag

[Ormond]

you've had it when the Sheep mafia read that. I had the nerve to say it once and got about 100 replies and death threats.

I said and i stick by it that If Mark Lawrenson had a Scottish Gran instead of Irish the Miller and McLeish would have struggled to get 20 caps each. a decent partnership in central defence is better than a world class player playing with someone who doesn't understand his game. That's what we had.

Death threats? Really?

[Jagtag]

Death threats? Really?

Ha ha. Just about. You'll see. I hope none of them know where he lives

Edited April 13, 2015 by Jagtag

[Dalgety Bay TA]

Brian McClair, first player to score 20 league goals for Man Utd since Best, league titles, European trophies. Add in, to a lesser extent, Steve Archibald and Graeme Sharp, again league titles, playing for Barca, European success, etc etc.

The 3 of them got 7 goals in nearly 70 appearances for Scotland.

[Caledonian Craig]

Brian McClair, first player to score 20 league goals for Man Utd since Best, league titles, European trophies. Add in, to a lesser extent, Steve Archibald and Graeme Sharp, again league titles, playing for Barca, European success, etc etc.

The 3 of them got 7 goals in nearly 70 appearances for Scotland.

Yes I forgot those three who promised much but delivered little for Scotland. Also you could put Ian Wallace, David Speedie and Gary Gillespie in there.

[scoobydoo]

I remember one time Scotland had a game and McClair was named in the starting lineup. We decided to keep an eye on him as much as we could for the whole match to see if the slagging he got was justified, something which we thought was.

He was superb and we asked others on our bus what they thought and they had thought he was minging as usual.

[Caledonian Craig]

I may be stretching things a bit here I realise but how about Dominic Matteo. Only ever won six caps for us but had a few years at Liverpool and Leeds then Blackburn.

[Orraloon]

you've had it when the Sheep mafia read that. I had the nerve to say it once and got about 100 replies and death threats.

I said and i stick by it that If Mark Lawrenson had a Scottish Gran instead of Irish the Miller and McLeish would have struggled to get 20 caps each. a decent partnership in central defence is better than a world class player playing with someone who doesn't understand his game. That's what we had.

Or a "world class" ish player who wasn't prepared to attempt to adapt his game to suit the way that Jock Stein wanted us to play?

Hansen was a fantastic player in that Liverpool set up but Scotland didn't (and probably couldn't) play that style of football. I don't think any other team could.

[mcnpauls]

I speak as a Stirling Albion fan whose brother used to play schoolboy football with Hansen, and an admirer of his Liverpool career, so i hope their is no perceived bias.

It wasn't just that managers preferred the McLeish-Miller partnership, it's that Hansen frequently played badly for Scotland. I saw every home match he played for us in the flesh and he was frequently poor, as well as seeing him in the odd away game I got to and live TV matches. The McLeish Miller central defence was actually established AFTER years of Hansen being a first choice pick at the back, but letting us down consistently on the field, as well as pulling out of squads a lot, and not being prepared to help the team tactics against team-mates who played for other countries.

Stein tried Hansen in partnership with various permutations, McLeish, Miller, Hegarty, Narey, Evans, etc, Roxburgh tried him with Gough. He did not thrive in any combination. Stein even kept trying him with Miller for a good while after their infamous bump against the U.S.S.R in the 82 World Cup. I think it was from about 83 onwards that Stein finally went for the Aberdeen axis, and the truth is that is when we became a formidable team at the back and for years to come. Lots of us at the time of the 82 World. Cup had wanted Leighton, McLeish and Miller to play, but Stein was not to be persuaded, more's the pity.

It's actually hard to convey just how good we were in central defence from about 83 onwards, you had to see the central defenders game after game coping superbly with often constant pressure from opposing forwards of the highest calibre.

[mcnpauls]

Yes I forgot those three who promised much but delivered little for Scotland. Also you could put Ian Wallace, David Speedie and Gary Gillespie in there.

To be honest, I'm not sure those three ever even promised that much for Scotland - they were good to excellent club men, but I don't remember anyone ever thinking they were likely to set the world on fire at international level.

Archibald and Sharp were more highly thought of, but were both fairly disastrous for Scotland. To be fair to Sharp, I've read him say in several interviews that he knew he just wasn't quite international class anyway.

McClair is a more complex case: he scored bucketloads of goals for Celtic, and Man U at the beginning, but was actually rarely used as an actual striker for Scotland, but the fans overlooked this and often complained about him not scoring in quite a few games when he was playing well as a midfielder really. Having said that, he also had a substantial number of underwhelming games for us.

[Caledonian Craig]

To be honest, I'm not sure those three ever even promised that much for Scotland - they were good to excellent club men, but I don't remember anyone ever thinking they were likely to set the world on fire at international level.

Well I did say players who were excellent for their clubs as well and those three fit the bill I'd say.

[Orraloon]

I speak as a Stirling Albion fan whose brother used to play schoolboy football with Hansen, and an admirer of his Liverpool career, so i hope their is no perceived bias.

It wasn't just that managers preferred the McLeish-Miller partnership, it's that Hansen frequently played badly for Scotland. I saw every home match he played for us in the flesh and he was frequently poor, as well as seeing him in the odd away game I got to and live TV matches. The McLeish Miller central defence was actually established AFTER years of Hansen being a first choice pick at the back, but letting us down consistently on the field, as well as pulling out of squads a lot, and not being prepared to help the team tactics against team-mates who played for other countries.

Stein tried Hansen in partnership with various permutations, McLeish, Miller, Hegarty, Narey, Evans, etc, Roxburgh tried him with Gough. He did not thrive in any combination. Stein even kept trying him with Miller for a good while after their infamous bump against the U.S.S.R in the 82 World Cup. I think it was from about 83 onwards that Stein finally went for the Aberdeen axis, and the truth is that is when we became a formidable team at the back and for years to come. Lots of us at the time of the 82 World. Cup had wanted Leighton, McLeish and Miller to play, but Stein was not to be persuaded, more's the pity.

It's actually hard to convey just how good we were in central defence from about 83 onwards, you had to see the central defenders game after game coping superbly with often constant pressure from opposing forwards of the highest calibre.

Another thing that went against Hansen was his refusal to play in midfield. Stein liked to play centre halfs in midfeild. A lot of folk criticised Roxburgh for that but it was Stein that started it. Miller, McLeish, Narey and Aitkin all played mainly in central defence for their clubs but they all had a go at playing midfield at some point. They were just happy to get a game in any position. Hansen refused to play out of his normal position.

[Ormond]

Another thing that went against Hansen was his refusal to play in midfield. Stein liked to play centre halfs in midfeild. A lot of folk criticised Roxburgh for that but it was Stein that started it. Miller, McLeish, Narey and Aitkin all played mainly in central defence for their clubs but they all had a go at playing midfield at some point. They were just happy to get a game in any position. Hansen refused to play out of his normal position.

There you have it. The difference between players who would do anything for a jersey and those who thought they were above that. Hansen was a bawsack then and is still a bawsack now.

[Jagtag]

Another thing that went against Hansen was his refusal to play in midfield. Stein liked to play centre halfs in midfeild. A lot of folk criticised Roxburgh for that but it was Stein that started it. Miller, McLeish, Narey and Aitkin all played mainly in central defence for their clubs but they all had a go at playing midfield at some point. They were just happy to get a game in any position. Hansen refused to play out of his normal position.

And I still remember a few of them Aitken in particular getting booed at Hampden for constantly losing possession.

Something that has always annoyed me is playing players out of position.

If Stein had changed our style to suit our best players we could have been so much better than we were. for far too long we kept trying that good old Scottish approach instead of changing our style to suit our best players.

In comparison it would be like having 4 of the Barcelona team of today and not trying to change our system to suit them.

I still recall Brian Clough saying he wanted the Scotland Job and people were up in arms that they didn't want an English man. He would have played to get the best out of Hansen, Souness, Dalglish, and the english based players and probably made us a much better side.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Jagtag

[ErsatzThistle]

I may be stretching things a bit here I realise but how about Dominic Matteo. Only ever won six caps for us but had a few years at Liverpool and Leeds then Blackburn.

Played 3 times for England Under 21s in 1994.

Called up for the senior England squad in 1996 and 1997 but never played.

Played for England B in 1998, Nigel Quashie was also playing for them.

Matteo should never have been capped for Scotland at all.

Edited April 14, 2015 by ErsatzThistle

[aaid]

Played 3 times for England Under 21s in 1994.

Called up for the senior England squad in 1996 and 1997 but never played.

Played for England B in 1998, Nigel Quashie was also playing for them.

Matteo should never have been capped for Scotland at all.

Never thought Matteo was that good anyway and it would've been no great loss if he never played for us.

That said, I think his decision to play for England would have to be looked at in the context of the time. European regulations meant that if he'd opted for Scotland, he'd be counted under the three foreigners rule. I believe that Liverpool put him under pressure to opt for England. Mind you they tried to do the same to Don Hutchison and he told them to stuff it.

[Geeman]

Excelled for Scotland but not so much at Club level: Kinda have to put James McFadden into that group. I know he had injuries at Everton and Birmingham City. And..... a few stellar performances in Claret and Amber.

But when he played in dark blue he was nothing short of miraculous and if he played like that consistently he could have won major trophies North or South of the border.

[Caledonian Craig]

Played 3 times for England Under 21s in 1994.

Called up for the senior England squad in 1996 and 1997 but never played.

Played for England B in 1998, Nigel Quashie was also playing for them.

Matteo should never have been capped for Scotland at all.

Okay if it makes you feel better leave him off the list but the basic point of the thread still stands.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Caledonian Craig

[aaid]

I speak as a Stirling Albion fan whose brother used to play schoolboy football with Hansen, and an admirer of his Liverpool career, so i hope their is no perceived bias.

It wasn't just that managers preferred the McLeish-Miller partnership, it's that Hansen frequently played badly for Scotland. I saw every home match he played for us in the flesh and he was frequently poor, as well as seeing him in the odd away game I got to and live TV matches. The McLeish Miller central defence was actually established AFTER years of Hansen being a first choice pick at the back, but letting us down consistently on the field, as well as pulling out of squads a lot, and not being prepared to help the team tactics against team-mates who played for other countries.

Stein tried Hansen in partnership with various permutations, McLeish, Miller, Hegarty, Narey, Evans, etc, Roxburgh tried him with Gough. He did not thrive in any combination. Stein even kept trying him with Miller for a good while after their infamous bump against the U.S.S.R in the 82 World Cup. I think it was from about 83 onwards that Stein finally went for the Aberdeen axis, and the truth is that is when we became a formidable team at the back and for years to come. Lots of us at the time of the 82 World. Cup had wanted Leighton, McLeish and Miller to play, but Stein was not to be persuaded, more's the pity.

It's actually hard to convey just how good we were in central defence from about 83 onwards, you had to see the central defenders game after game coping superbly with often constant pressure from opposing forwards of the highest calibre.

Yeah, Stein persisted with Miller and Hansen for the 1982/3 season but from the Home Internationals in 1983 until the WC finals in Mexico he was set with the Miller/McLeish partnership - obviously Fergie being in charge post Cardiff but he didn't really change Stein's basic team.

I always knew they were a fixture but looking back at the records is amazes me how consistently they played. From the Wales game in 1983 - where Miller/McLeish - and Leighton played - until the Uruguay game in 1986, Scotland played 30 games, McLeish and Miller were the centre back partnership in 25 out of 30 games, in all bar 4 of these games Leighton was the keeper - and three of those games were friendlies where I suspect the manager wanted to give the other keeper a game.

That's an amazing record and its not because there wasn't any competition, far from it, other than Hansen, you also had Paul Hegarty and David Narey, an excellent club partnership, and there was Roy Aitken as well.

[Caledonian Craig]

Excelled for Scotland but not so much at Club level: Kinda have to put James McFadden into that group. I know he had injuries at Everton and Birmingham City. And..... a few stellar performances in Claret and Amber.

But when he played in dark blue he was nothing short of miraculous and if he played like that consistently he could have won major trophies North or South of the border.

Yes a good example that. Faddy had maybe a decent season or two at Everton but nothing truly outstanding. Another you could add from the current squad would be David Marshall. He seems to have spent longer in the lower leagues than in the top flight and is keeping Gordon and McGregor out of the side and it would be fair to say they have had the more successful club careers.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Caledonian Craig

[mcnpauls]

Yeah, Stein persisted with Miller and Hansen for the 1982/3 season but from the Home Internationals in 1983 until the WC finals in Mexico he was set with the Miller/McLeish partnership - obviously Fergie being in charge post Cardiff but he didn't really change Stein's basic team.

I always knew they were a fixture but looking back at the records is amazes me how consistently they played. From the Wales game in 1983 - where Miller/McLeish - and Leighton played - until the Uruguay game in 1986, Scotland played 30 games, McLeish and Miller were the centre back partnership in 25 out of 30 games, in all bar 4 of these games Leighton was the keeper - and three of those games were friendlies where I suspect the manager wanted to give the other keeper a game.

That's an amazing record and its not because there wasn't any competition, far from it, other than Hansen, you also had Paul Hegarty and David Narey, an excellent club partnership, and there was Roy Aitken as well.

I seem to recall, too, that there is some amazing statistic like only three forwards actually scored against Scotland in all of the dozens of matches when McLeish and Miller played together.

I agree with Jagtag that a Clough led Scotland in the 80s could have been amazing.