Caledonian Craig Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 (edited) Probably since the dawn of time Scotland's national team has had players who have excelled for us even though they may not stand out for their clubs or conversely players who star for their clubs (and some of them the biggest clubs around) yet flop on international duty. Why is this? We have seen it many times (even in my lifetime) with players who have sparkled for their clubs but have disappointed for Scotland and players such as Charlie Nicholas, Alan Hansen, Charlie Adam, Gary McAllister (at times) and probably lots more that don't immediately spring to mind. On the other side of the coin we have had players at lower league clubs not recognized by bigger clubs who have done a great job for us - players like Ikechi Anya and Graham Alexander and such-like so why does this happen? I would have to say it is all down to the management involved and how each individual player is used. I have no doubt that those that have flopped for us yet shown their talent at the highest level in club football had the talent but perhaps struggled as they were either not man-managed as well as they were at club level or were not played in their strongest position or just couldn't settle into a pattern the international manager of the time wanted so it stinted their growth at such a level. Those that have excelled for us but not necessarily at the highest level in club football probably garnered more confidence from international call-ups which help and have been given a more important role in the side they can perhaps express themselves better than at club level - again I'd put that down as well to how the international manager handles each individual player. Thoughts and opinions? Edited April 13, 2015 by Caledonian Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy North Croy Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Marmalade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted April 13, 2015 Author Share Posted April 13, 2015 Marmalade. Very interesting. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iainmac1 Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 I like turtles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jock strap Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 I like turtles Michaelangelo is my favourite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ormond Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 I like turtles They're alright once they come out of their shell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flora MaDonald Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Jim Murphy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chesney Hawkes TA Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 English is evidently not your first language. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iainmac1 Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 I figured after Charlie Adam sparkling for his clubs it was a joke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted April 13, 2015 Author Share Posted April 13, 2015 I figured after Charlie Adam sparkling for his clubs it was a joke. Figuratively, speaking of course. He has played for Liverpool and long been a regular in the EPL at a time when we have went more for Championship/SPL based players. If you believe he is crap but been a fixture in the EPL for a few years then I am stunned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted April 13, 2015 Author Share Posted April 13, 2015 English is evidently not your first language. I take it that isn't directed at me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcnpauls Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 I'm convinced in Alan Hansen's case it was mainly down to the fact he did not like, and was not great at, the kind of constant backs to the wall defending often required at international level from our men at the back. He was at his best in a team that was frequently dominant, which he of course helped to establish, but which gave him the chance to link well wit the people in front of him, while others concentrated on covering the defensive side. This was not the case with Scotland side of the time, and I think it may also explain his then questionable commitment. Nicholas was more a victim of the chopping and changing that used to go on up front, and even midfield, when he was at his peak: Stein rarely seemed to have a stable idea of what he wanted in those areas, and when Ferguson and Roxburgh took over, Nicholas' daft decision to go to a totally inappropriate for him Arsenal side meant he s no longer seen as a potentially key player. In McAllister's case, I think he achieved about as much as could have been expected as I don't think he had quite the international-level potential of the other two you mention, but made a good go of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted April 13, 2015 Author Share Posted April 13, 2015 Thank you mcnpauls. Someone actually taking time to address the points. Refreshing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chesney Hawkes TA Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 I take it that isn't directed at me. Of course it's directed at you. "Figuratively, speaking of course." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted April 13, 2015 Author Share Posted April 13, 2015 Of course it's directed at you. "Figuratively, speaking of course." Errr no that comment was posted AFTER your first comment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chesney Hawkes TA Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Errr no that comment was posted AFTER your first comment. Ralph Wiggum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted April 13, 2015 Author Share Posted April 13, 2015 Ralph Wiggum. Just discuss the topic or don't bother posting eh? Not hard to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chesney Hawkes TA Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Just discuss the topic or don't bother posting eh? Not hard to do. Ok, Ralph. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcnpauls Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 There's a lot to be said for having a pattern to the team, and concentrating on making it work. I've lived in Spain for a long time, and the lack of a system was what had stopped a country with great individual players from doing well, until Luis Aragones defined the system he wanted, then went for it and won the 2008 European Championship; del Bosque made some refinements and adjustments, but also knew what he wanted and won World Cup 2010 and Euro 2012. (Having said that, he blew it in 2014 by sticking to almost exactly the team from before.) In the 70s and 80s we were like the Spain sides for in the nineties and noughties: lots of great individual players, but lack of a coherent system. About the closest we came was probably in defence from the mid to late 80s. Leighton in goals, McLeish and Miller in the middle, Gough, Malpas on the flanks, with other people slotting in to a recognisable system that worked when needed: Steve Nicol, David Narey, etc. I think Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iainmac1 Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Figuratively, speaking of course. He has played for Liverpool and long been a regular in the EPL at a time when we have went more for Championship/SPL based players. If you believe he is crap but been a fixture in the EPL for a few years then I am stunned. Don't you mean astonished Johann? You are talking about players who have excelled for club/country and been poor for the other one. Not agreeing with that is a big jump from thinking he is crap. Yes he played for Liverpool but for one season, that isn't excelling at the highest level. He has also been in and out of the Stoke team this year. He is decent but far from being a top club player who hasn't shown that level internationally. He is an average club player and he has been average for Scotland too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ormond Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Just discuss the topic or don't bother posting eh? Not hard to do.I like big butts and I cannot lie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted April 13, 2015 Author Share Posted April 13, 2015 Don't you mean astonished Johann? You are talking about players who have excelled for club/country and been poor for the other one. Not agreeing with that is a big jump from thinking he is crap. Yes he played for Liverpool but for one season, that isn't excelling at the highest level. He has also been in and out of the Stoke team this year. He is decent but far from being a top club player who hasn't shown that level internationally. He is an average club player and he has been average for Scotland too. Well in Adam's case has he not disappointed for Scotland? Of course he has. Of course we can debate his deep down quality but if you ask Scotland fans in general they would say they expected so much more from him so at one point a large portion of those fans must have rated him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalgety Bay TA Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Well in Adam's case has he not disappointed for Scotland? Of course he has. Of course we can debate his deep down quality but if you ask Scotland fans in general they would say they expected so much more from him so at one point a large portion of those fans must have rated him. Charlie Adam had a very good season for Blackpool in the Championship. He then had a decent season for them in the EPL where the team was set up to accommodate him. The rest of his career, for club and country, outwith those two seasons has been poor to average, which is exactly what his Scotland career has been too. I have no idea however what his "deep down quality" means? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted April 13, 2015 Author Share Posted April 13, 2015 I have no idea however what his "deep down quality" means? As I said it is open to debate. You would probably say there is no real quality there but others may disagree. I am sure though you would agree there are lots of other players like I described. Flops for Scotland but big at their clubs and on the other side players who never really made it to the big time in club football but did a good job for Scotland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 I'm really struggling to think of someone who could be considered a stand out at club level and a flop for Scotland. Certainly not in the last 30 years or so. Well I can think of one, Duncan Ferguson, but that was a bit of a special case. I wouldn't call Hansen a flop necessarily, he would have had a lot more caps had Stein not gone for Miller and McLeish as the first choice centre back partnership. The right choice IMHO as although Hansen was probably a better player than McLeish at the time, Miller/McLeish was a better partnership than Miller/Hansen. Outwith the two seasons before he left Celtic to go to Arsenal, Charlie Nicholas's career was average at best. I'd put him firmly in the category of promising youngsters who fail to live up to their initial promise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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