Indyref 2 (2)

[Ally Bongo]

https://peterabell.scot/2023/10/16/betrayed-2/

Yesterday in Aberdeen, Scotland’s cause was betrayed by a clique of craven, self-serving politicians and the pathologically credulous conference delegates who had the power to put a stop to the treachery but chose the other thing. Between them, the leadership cabal of the SNP and those representing party members dealt what may prove to be a final, fatal blow to hopes of restoring Scotland’s independence.

Yesterday in Aberdeen, Humza Yousaf and Stephen Flynn stood on the SNP conference platform and spoke of what was good for the party and, not at all incidentally, what was good for Humza Yousaf and Stephen Flynn. If anyone stood at the podium and spoke of what was good for cause and country, their voices were inaudible.

Yesterday in Aberdeen, the delegates attending the SNP conference demonstrated that they had learned nothing from the nine years of paralysis Scotland’s cause had to endure because that was what suited Nicola Sturgeon’s personal purposes. They voted to honour Sturgeon’s legacy of bloviating inaction. They voted for no change to their party’s approach to the constitutional issue. They voted to continue the ‘strategy’ which has failed abysmally for nine wearying years. They voted for a ‘strategy’ which cannot possibly lead to the restoration of Scotland’s independence. They voted for a ‘strategy’ which requires that the sovereignty of Scotland’s people be critically compromised. They voted for a ‘strategy’ which ultimately defers to the ruling elites of the British state. They voted against any challenge to the anti-democratic British Nationalism which promises to eradicate Scotland’s distinctive political culture and erode Scotland’s national identity.

The resolution passed by the SNP conference yesterday amounts to nothing more than a rewording of the ‘strategy’ that has kept Scotland’s cause immobile since 2015 and seen numerous opportunities for progress casually squandered. It means the SNP will go into the Westminster election in 2024 with the same message for voters as has been issued in every election since the 2014 referendum. What was decided in Aberdeen yesterday was that the SNP will say to the people of Scotland give us another mandate, and we will humiliate the people of Scotland by issuing yet another futile ‘demand’ for a Section 30 order. And when it is refused, well, you’ll just have to wait and see.

What was decided in Aberdeen yesterday was that electoral success for the SNP and the personal careers of the likes of Yousaf and Flynn take priority over rescuing Scotland from the British Nationalist onslaught that will accompany next year’s UK general election campaign.

But that is not the worst of it. Worse even than the fact that the Sturgeon/Yousaf ‘strategy’ is bound to fail is the fact that by deferring to Westminster the SNP Scottish Government will be denying the sovereignty of Scotland’s people. It cannot be otherwise. If the people of Scotland are sovereign then our word is final. Nothing is required to give democratic effect to the expressed will of Scotland’s people. Any expression of the will of the sovereign people of Scotland has immediate and direct democratic effect on account of the people of Scotland being sovereign. Being sovereign, the people are the ultimate political authority. But the SNP’s adopted ‘strategy’ is to make the British state the ultimate authority. There cannot be two ultimate authorities. If, as the SNP decided in Aberdeen yesterday, the Scottish Government acknowledges parliamentary sovereignty, this has to be a denial of the sovereignty of Scotland’s people.

Denying the sovereignty of Scotland’s people is an act of foul treachery. There is no way to disguise this. For the delegates in Aberdeen yesterday to be unaware of the treachery involved in their vote, they would have to be monumentally stupid. I cannot be persuaded that those delegates are as stupid as they would have to be to fail to recognise the treachery they were being asked to condone. I can only conclude that they considered their debasement a price worth paying to make life easier for Yousaf, Flynn and the rest. The thought process is unfathomable.

Yesterday in Aberdeen was a dark day for Scotland’s cause. It was a day of ignominy for the SNP membership. It was a day of infamy for the SNP leadership. It was a day of betrayal for Scotland.

[Ally Bongo]

https://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2023/10/yousafs-craven-backtracking-when-vote.html

I wanted to wait until I had a chance to read through the full text of the SNP's new "strategy for winning independence" before passing comment.  Well, where to start.  Maybe with the sole positive part: Yousaf has not reversed his dramatic announcement from a few months ago that the first line of the SNP's election manifesto will state that a vote for the SNP is a vote for an independent Scotland.  That's important, because whatever the SNP's own views on whether the election is a de facto independence referendum, it at least gives voters the theoretical opportunity to use it as one.  They had no such opportunity in 2019 because the manifesto did not contain that language (which is why people are mistaken in thinking the SNP are asking for a mandate they already have and are not using).

When Yousaf became leader, I noted that it meant the SNP had ceased to be a party actively seeking to win independence for the first time since at least 1942.  His announcement about the content of the first line of the manifesto (which he was almost certainly forced into by circumstance) caused me to tentatively reverse that assessment, and I suppose because that now forms part of the finalised "strategy", I must concede that the SNP do remain an actively pro-independence party.  But it's a finely-balanced call, because almost everything else in the text seems designed to undermine the meaning and clarity of the manifesto's opening words.

How do you signal to voters, the UK Government and the international community that an SNP vote is not really a vote for independence, even though you say it is?  Well, how about by going on to say that a vote for the SNP is actually a vote for certain limited powers to be devolved, which would obviously be unnecessary and impossible if Scotland is already independent.  Or how about by saying that you want the power to hold a referendum transferred to Holyrood, which would be unnecessary if Scotland has already voted for independence in a meaningful way.  Or how about by dropping in the subtext that even if you get the power to hold a referendum, you might not use it any time soon, thus implying the 2024 manifesto is even less of an urgent attempt to win independence than its 2019 counterpart. Or how about by suggesting that if no progress is made as a result of an SNP victory, you might then give 'consideration' to using the 2026 Holyrood election as a de facto referendum, with the implication that - in spite of all appearances - the wording of the manifesto cannot really be construed as making the 2024 election a de facto referendum even if voters wish to use it as one.

That word "consideration" is the most snivelling part of the whole exercise, because at least if there had been a clear statement of intent to use 2026 as the de facto, we'd have a roadmap towards independence.  As it is, we instead have the very real prospect of continuing with election after election of just kicking the can a bit further down the road.

[Alibi]

23 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

They only got 27% at the Rutherglen & Hamilton West By Election which presumably is what Wings fed into the calculator

 

FFS, that by-election had other yoon parties voting for Labour - tactical voting - and also vast numbers of SNP voters just didn't vote.  It's a one off.  Fairly sure that won't be repeated at a general election.  I would hope by that time, Labour's actual policies - such as no to indy/indyref ever, and their pro Brexit stance to name just 2 things - will be publicised properly and their vote share will drop like a stone.  Pro-indy voters are generally not going to vote for a unionist party, and if they do they deserve everything they get.

[Alibi]

21 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

You can be in denial as much as you like

Look at the empty seats in an already smaller conference hall today

Probably because a lot of folk can't be bothered with conferences.  Doesn't mean they won't vote when an election comes round.  Enthusiasm has slumped but folk still want indy.  We need a charismatic leader to get things moving again.

[Ally Bongo]

44 minutes ago, Alibi said:

Probably because a lot of folk can't be bothered with conferences.  Doesn't mean they won't vote when an election comes round.  Enthusiasm has slumped but folk still want indy.  We need a charismatic leader to get things moving again.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polling_in_Scotland_for_next_United_Kingdom_general_election

[Ally Bongo]

30 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polling_in_Scotland_for_next_United_Kingdom_general_election

A lot of the polls have the SNP hovering around 33-34% right now

What do you think they will be polling in a few months after what we witnessed at the conference along with absolutely suicidal statements like this

"Firstly, they should immediately begin work on the creation of a refugee resettlement scheme for those in Gaza who want to, and are able to, leave.

"And when they do so, Scotland is willing to be the first country in the UK to offer safety and sanctuary to those caught up in these terrible attacks."

 

[duncan II]

2 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

A lot of the polls have the SNP hovering around 33-34% right now

What do you think they will be polling in a few months after what we witnessed at the conference along with absolutely suicidal statements like this

"Firstly, they should immediately begin work on the creation of a refugee resettlement scheme for those in Gaza who want to, and are able to, leave.

"And when they do so, Scotland is willing to be the first country in the UK to offer safety and sanctuary to those caught up in these terrible attacks."

 

I agree the SNP need a kicking with regard to their recent decision making and their inaction on Indy, but I'd support them to the hilt on offering sanctuary to innocent victims of oppression or those fleeing war. A Scotland as part of the Uk or an independent nation should always do this.

[hampden_loon2878]

It’s as if the hierarchy in the party are addicted to self harm,, I stuck by that humza will be lucky to see Xmas and if he gets past that then he is out on his ear after the next GE, I could actually bet my house on it 

[aaid]

It surprising to see the people on here who have problems with bringing in refugees.  What next, charity should begin at home?  

[Ally Bongo]

1 hour ago, duncan II said:

I agree the SNP need a kicking with regard to their recent decision making and their inaction on Indy, but I'd support them to the hilt on offering sanctuary to innocent victims of oppression or those fleeing war. A Scotland as part of the Uk or an independent nation should always do this.

 

30 minutes ago, aaid said:

It surprising to see the people on here who have problems with bringing in refugees.  What next, charity should begin at home?  

I don't know if either of you noticed but rightly or wrongly one of the most divisive issues in the UK is Immigration & Migration - and Scotland is not that far different from England

How do you think the leavers won the Brexit Referendum and why there are so many Tories ?

Secondly - Scotland has fuck all to do with immigration or migration policy - it is all decided at Westminster so all the leader of the SNP has done is given the No Voters and Unionists in Scotland more steel for their desire to remain that way.

Once Scotland is Independent then the FM of Scotland can say whatever he likes on divisive issues but when you are trying to "garner support" then do you think actions like this are wise ?

By all means have sympathy but there was no need to go that far

I hope to fuck neither of you are SNP strategists

[hampden_loon2878]

22 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

 

I don't know if either of you noticed but rightly or wrongly one of the most divisive issues in the UK is Immigration & Migration - and Scotland is not that far different from England

How do you think the leavers won the Brexit Referendum and why there are so many Tories ?

Secondly - Scotland has fuck all to do with immigration or migration policy - it is all decided at Westminster so all the leader of the SNP has done is given the No Voters and Unionists in Scotland more steel for their desire to remain that way.

Once Scotland is Independent then the FM of Scotland can say whatever he likes on divisive issues but when you are trying to "garner support" then do you think actions like this are wise ?

By all means have sympathy but there was no need to go that far

I hope to fuck neither of you are SNP strategists

Correct going after a very risky policie that he has zero say on,, lose lose as he won’t get any say on the policy and has the fall out from the anti immigrant leaning voters and there are plenty 

[aaid]

So it’s the old “I’m not a racist but I don’t want to upset racists” argument.

[Hertsscot]

Tbh most people who won't want refugees, probably won't be voting SNP anyhow. So whilst not necessarily a vote winner, they might not necessarily lose votes. Anyhow sometimes politicians have just got to do what they think is right 

[daviebee]

22 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

https://peterabell.scot/2023/10/16/betrayed-2/

Yesterday in Aberdeen, Scotland’s cause was betrayed by a clique of craven, self-serving politicians and the pathologically credulous conference delegates who had the power to put a stop to the treachery but chose the other thing. Between them, the leadership cabal of the SNP and those representing party members dealt what may prove to be a final, fatal blow to hopes of restoring Scotland’s independence.

Yesterday in Aberdeen, Humza Yousaf and Stephen Flynn stood on the SNP conference platform and spoke of what was good for the party and, not at all incidentally, what was good for Humza Yousaf and Stephen Flynn. If anyone stood at the podium and spoke of what was good for cause and country, their voices were inaudible.

Yesterday in Aberdeen, the delegates attending the SNP conference demonstrated that they had learned nothing from the nine years of paralysis Scotland’s cause had to endure because that was what suited Nicola Sturgeon’s personal purposes. They voted to honour Sturgeon’s legacy of bloviating inaction. They voted for no change to their party’s approach to the constitutional issue. They voted to continue the ‘strategy’ which has failed abysmally for nine wearying years. They voted for a ‘strategy’ which cannot possibly lead to the restoration of Scotland’s independence. They voted for a ‘strategy’ which requires that the sovereignty of Scotland’s people be critically compromised. They voted for a ‘strategy’ which ultimately defers to the ruling elites of the British state. They voted against any challenge to the anti-democratic British Nationalism which promises to eradicate Scotland’s distinctive political culture and erode Scotland’s national identity.

The resolution passed by the SNP conference yesterday amounts to nothing more than a rewording of the ‘strategy’ that has kept Scotland’s cause immobile since 2015 and seen numerous opportunities for progress casually squandered. It means the SNP will go into the Westminster election in 2024 with the same message for voters as has been issued in every election since the 2014 referendum. What was decided in Aberdeen yesterday was that the SNP will say to the people of Scotland give us another mandate, and we will humiliate the people of Scotland by issuing yet another futile ‘demand’ for a Section 30 order. And when it is refused, well, you’ll just have to wait and see.

What was decided in Aberdeen yesterday was that electoral success for the SNP and the personal careers of the likes of Yousaf and Flynn take priority over rescuing Scotland from the British Nationalist onslaught that will accompany next year’s UK general election campaign.

But that is not the worst of it. Worse even than the fact that the Sturgeon/Yousaf ‘strategy’ is bound to fail is the fact that by deferring to Westminster the SNP Scottish Government will be denying the sovereignty of Scotland’s people. It cannot be otherwise. If the people of Scotland are sovereign then our word is final. Nothing is required to give democratic effect to the expressed will of Scotland’s people. Any expression of the will of the sovereign people of Scotland has immediate and direct democratic effect on account of the people of Scotland being sovereign. Being sovereign, the people are the ultimate political authority. But the SNP’s adopted ‘strategy’ is to make the British state the ultimate authority. There cannot be two ultimate authorities. If, as the SNP decided in Aberdeen yesterday, the Scottish Government acknowledges parliamentary sovereignty, this has to be a denial of the sovereignty of Scotland’s people.

Denying the sovereignty of Scotland’s people is an act of foul treachery. There is no way to disguise this. For the delegates in Aberdeen yesterday to be unaware of the treachery involved in their vote, they would have to be monumentally stupid. I cannot be persuaded that those delegates are as stupid as they would have to be to fail to recognise the treachery they were being asked to condone. I can only conclude that they considered their debasement a price worth paying to make life easier for Yousaf, Flynn and the rest. The thought process is unfathomable.

Yesterday in Aberdeen was a dark day for Scotland’s cause. It was a day of ignominy for the SNP membership. It was a day of infamy for the SNP leadership. It was a day of betrayal for Scotland.

Peter Bell can be an arse but that's a great assessment by him.

[hampden_loon2878]

1 hour ago, aaid said:

So it’s the old “I’m not a racist but I don’t want to upset racists” argument.

No it’s the argument of being the head of the snp and what’s best for independence,, you ever going to admit I was right about sturgeon 

Edited October 18, 2023 by hampden_loon2878

[hampden_loon2878]

1 hour ago, Hertsscot said:

Tbh most people who won't want refugees, probably won't be voting SNP anyhow. So whilst not necessarily a vote winner, they might not necessarily lose votes. Anyhow sometimes politicians have just got to do what they think is right 

Like sturgeon and the transgender fiasco 

[Ally Bongo]

3 hours ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

It’s as if the hierarchy in the party are addicted to self harm,, I stuck by that humza will be lucky to see Xmas and if he gets past that then he is out on his ear after the next GE, I could actually bet my house on it 

He will last until the General Election and at that point the Lib Dems will be back as the third Party in Westminster

There are no events that will oust him before then

It will actually be good in a way if the General Election is a decisive kicking for the SNP and although it will be portrayed as Independence being dead - a new leader or indeed a new party can run for Holyrood and make that a defacto referendum.

Only the Humza brigade will buy the latest Indy kicking the can carrot

[scotlad]

2 hours ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

Correct going after a very risky policie that he has zero say on,, lose lose as he won’t get any say on the policy and has the fall out from the anti immigrant leaning voters and there are plenty 

Let's be honest, if the UK does engage in some kind resettlement scheme you can bet your life savings one of the first places people will be resettled is Scotland, regardless of what the SNP say, and it won't be for entirely altruistic reasons.

The statement from the SNP highlighted by Ally is effectively meaningless; the SG has no control over immigration but statements like that just feeds into the growing perception that the SNP are more concerned with posturing and virtue signalling than improving conditions in Scotland (and achieving independence).

Scotland should be helping people displaced by war as much as we're able to; we'd expect the same from others if we were ever in such dire circumstances (although in this case I'd have thought it would be more logical for safer Arab states to lend a hand). But we have done our bit and then some over the past twenty years (at one stage Glasgow had one of the highest asylum seeker populations in the UK, per capita). Sometimes you can overreach and that doesn't help anyone.

[aaid]

8 hours ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

No it’s the argument of being the head of the snp and what’s best for independence,, you ever going to admit I was right about sturgeon 

There’s literally no minority, no vulnerable person you’d throw under the bus is there?

[hampden_loon2878]

2 hours ago, aaid said:

There’s literally no minority, no vulnerable person you’d throw under the bus is there?

Everyone’s fed up of yer pish aaid,,, no one takes yer crap seriously,,, you and your kine have fucked it for independence 

[mariokempes]

3 hours ago, aaid said:

There’s literally no minority, no vulnerable person you’d throw under the bus is there?

Man yer off yer trolly.

[hampden_loon2878]

Time to listen to the grown ups 

[Shaundy]

Germany , Germany. We’re the famous Tartan Army and we’re off to Germany. 
It’s the best hope the planet has for humanity. 

[Alibi]

My SNP membership has expired and I haven't bothered renewing.  I have no interest in going to local branch meetings where all they do is read out reports on how many members the branch has.  There is no actual discussion of policies or ideas.  I'm fairly sure most of them have meekly fallen in line with gender self-ID and I'm pretty sure the recently elected convener is of the wokerati persuasion.  Having seen the statements coming out of the conference, I am not inspired.  Marcus Carlaw, whoever he is, seems to have taken it upon himself to dampen expectations and prevent any progress with indy.  The leadership, collectively, are a bunch of virtue signalling nobodies and there is zero chance of them achieving anything.  Fairly sure several of them are shall we say compromised.  I really don't know where we go from here, but Yousaf is not the answer.  He's a fucking liability, bowing to the will of the unionist press, scared to take any meaningful action on anything, and making daft virtue signalling statements that are almost designed specifically to shed votes.  He's no Alex Salmond, that's for sure.  I did wonder if the current ongoing police investigation is not actually about money but about the failed plot to have Salmond imprisoned, although I'd have no faith in the police service doing the right thing there.

Seriously considering moving abroad for my retirement.

[TDYER63]

On 10/18/2023 at 9:08 PM, Hertsscot said:

Tbh most people who won't want refugees, probably won't be voting SNP anyhow. So whilst not necessarily a vote winner, they might not necessarily lose votes. Anyhow sometimes politicians have just got to do what they think is right 

Thats how i see it .

Humza is weak as hell and IMO he does not have the ability to bring us independence regardless of what he does or doesn’t say. 

However, I am not going to jump on the bandwagon of slating him for everything.  I want to live in a country that is welcoming to all , not just welcoming to anyone wealthy enough to pay their way in. If folk are not going to vote for independence because a FM says we will help refugees then good luck to them. What goes around comes around. You reap what you sow. Tony Benn was absolutely right. The way the government treats refugees is very enlightening as its the way they would treat the rest of us if they had half the chance.

I am not one if these ‘independence at any costs type of people’. I have a couple of red lines. One is that I would not vote for independence if I genuinely didn’t think we were capable of being a successful independent country. Flag waving doesn’t feed your children.
The other red line is the type of country we become. I have no interest in becoming a wee grubby version of the UK. And I dont think Yousaf is wrong to say what he did.