Scottish players in action 21/22

[vanderark14]

4 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

What would excite Scotland fans more? Doak on the bench about to come on or Jacob Brown. No brainer really. Brown will never be rated high enough to play for Celtic or Liverpool - Doak has done both by the age of 17 and is getting high accolades from Klopp and others in the know at Anfield.

After being rejected by Sheff Wed, Brown has worked his way up from non league to premiership football, possibly a late bloomer, to say he will never be rated highly to play for celtic is bizarre, he's 25 and now playing in one of the best leagues in the world

[mccaughey85]

29 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

And the point I am making is for us to improve we need our strongest squads possible. And just as we have strengthened replacing the likes of O'Donnell with Hickey, Fleck with Gilmour so it dhould be with Doak for Brown.

Not sure we need to do a straight swap. If brown does well then theres no reason why both cant be in the squad.

Not really seen much of brown to be honest but hes still only 25 and has quite a few raw attributes that could result in him becoming a useful squad player or more. Just got to see what happens with both players and wether they both merit a call up.

[Caledonian Craig]

31 minutes ago, vanderark14 said:

After being rejected by Sheff Wed, Brown has worked his way up from non league to premiership football, possibly a late bloomer, to say he will never be rated highly to play for celtic is bizarre, he's 25 and now playing in one of the best leagues in the world

It is easy when we are desperate to look for any positives in a player. Brown playing EPL football is one. Truth of the matter is he has been bought by an EPL club very much im Championship clothing. They have neither the budget nor the pulling power to attract big marque signings you would expect from an EPL team. Brown is a striker that will only ever be a squad padding out for us. Sorry if that sounds cruel but it is how I see him. And we have had several of that sort in the last 10 to 20 years but that number has diminished recently. For us to improve and strengthen we need to continue to strengthen in the necessary areas such as goalkeeping and in attacking areas. The goalkeeping area does not look great going forward for strengthening but Doak is certainly one to bolster our attack (currently as back up to Dykes, Adams, Shankland and Nisbet). Brown is not one that is ripping up trees in any case and right now he is no upgrade on Nisbet or Shankland. Doak though, going by multiple sources, could quickly be a first choice for us if he continues on his development.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Caledonian Craig

[ceudmilefailte]

Not sure how many minutes you need to play to meet the criteria of being an EPL player, but I doubt Brown will meet it. 

Luton are a championship side and are going straight back down. 

[mccaughey85]

11 minutes ago, ceudmilefailte said:

Not sure how many minutes you need to play to meet the criteria of being an EPL player, but I doubt Brown will meet it. 

Luton are a championship side and are going straight back down. 

Our strikers/forwards tend to be championship quality tbf. If we had epl standard guys then we wouldnt be using brown or even dykes.

[vanderark14]

1 hour ago, mccaughey85 said:

Not sure we need to do a straight swap. If brown does well then theres no reason why both cant be in the squad.

Not really seen much of brown to be honest but hes still only 25 and has quite a few raw attributes that could result in him becoming a useful squad player or more. Just got to see what happens with both players and wether they both merit a call up.

Exactly this for me. 

 

[vanderark14]

1 hour ago, Caledonian Craig said:

It is easy when we are desperate to look for any positives in a player. Brown playing EPL football is one. Truth of the matter is he has been bought by an EPL club very much im Championship clothing. They have neither the budget nor the pulling power to attract big marque signings you would expect from an EPL team. Brown is a striker that will only ever be a squad padding out for us. Sorry if that sounds cruel but it is how I see him. And we have had several of that sort in the last 10 to 20 years but that number has diminished recently. For us to improve and strengthen we need to continue to strengthen in the necessary areas such as goalkeeping and in attacking areas. The goalkeeping area does not look great going forward for strengthening but Doak is certainly one to bolster our attack (currently as back up to Dykes, Adams, Shankland and Nisbet). Brown is not one that is ripping up trees in any case and right now he is no upgrade on Nisbet or Shankland. Doak though, going by multiple sources, could quickly be a first choice for us if he continues on his development.

Nisbet and Shankland are championship players at best too. 

[borojock]

1 hour ago, Caledonian Craig said:

And the point I am making is for us to improve we need our strongest squads possible. And just as we have strengthened replacing the likes of O'Donnell with Hickey, Fleck with Gilmour so it dhould be with Doak for Brown.

So let me get this right the point your making is a completely unconnected point to my original post - got it

If i may respond to your well put point i would probably say i think pineapples taste the best in spring time  

[mccaughey85]

1 minute ago, vanderark14 said:

Nisbet and Shankland are championship players at best too. 

And probably dykes as well. Dykes only scored 8 goals in the championship last season but he seems to play well for us. Unless 2 or 3 epl level strikers come through then guys like brown and nisbet will be considered for squads. 

[Caledonian Craig]

10 minutes ago, vanderark14 said:

Nisbet and Shankland are championship players at best too. 

But both have far better strike rate and more experience than Brown plus have shown they can score at international level. You could argue Brown has had less of a chance but I am confident both are better options than Brown.

[Caledonian Craig]

15 minutes ago, borojock said:

So let me get this right the point your making is a completely unconnected point to my original post - got it

If i may respond to your well put point i would probably say i think pineapples taste the best in spring time  

No its a valid point about improving our squad quality. Anyone who thinks Brown makes Scotland squads stronger than Doak are bonkers. No need to listen to me but I am sure Klopp would tell you the same.

Not sure why the Jacob Brown Appreciation Society are coming out in force here. If we want to progress to the next level as a side we need squad improvement and Doak offers that, Brown does not. 

Edited August 14, 2023 by Caledonian Craig

[vanderark14]

1 minute ago, Caledonian Craig said:

But both have far better strike rate and more experience than Brown plus have shown they can score at international level. You could argue Brown has had less of a chance but I am confident both are better options than Brown.

Nisbet and Shankland have the grand total of 1 international goal each, you are clutching at straws with that point. More experience? Nope they really don't, Shankland scored a huge amount if his goals in the Scottish championship which I would class as english conference at best. Nisbet scored a chunk of his in Scottish league one and is now playing at the same level Brown played at last year. If anything Brown will slightly edge the experience debate within the next few months if he plays regularly

There really fuck all between them and I don't mind which one Clarke goes with but you seem to have a bee in yer bunnet when it comes to BRown

 

[vanderark14]

1 minute ago, Caledonian Craig said:

No its a valid point about improving our squad quality. Anyone who thinks Brown makes Scotland squads stronger than Doak are bonkers. No need to listen to me but I am sure Klopp would tell you the same.

Not sure why the Jacob Brown Appreciation Society are coming out in force here. If we want to progress to the next level as a side we need squad improvement and Doak offers that, Brown does not. 

and as has been demonstrated its not a straight choice between Doak and Brown, you made it this way to suit your argument

[syecosse]

What's worth checking out is Alex Neil had to defend why the club sold Brown, his comments are very positive, called him a managers dream to manage and have available, played most of his minutes as a winger, was Stoke player of the year the season before, Luton Manager speaks also of his delight at getting him. 

[Caledonian Craig]

1 minute ago, vanderark14 said:

Nisbet and Shankland have the grand total of 1 international goal each, you are clutching at straws with that point. More experience? Nope they really don't, Shankland scored a huge amount if his goals in the Scottish championship which I would class as english conference at best. Nisbet scored a chunk of his in Scottish league one and is now playing at the same level Brown played at last year. If anything Brown will slightly edge the experience debate within the next few months if he plays regularly

There really fuck all between them and I don't mind which one Clarke goes with but you seem to have a bee in yer bunnet when it comes to BRown

 

Jacob Brown 212 games a lmost half at level lower than Championship and 37 goals.

Kevin Nisbet 253 games most at SPL level but also lower level with 108 goals.

Lawrence Shankland 374 games a third of which in SPL and Belgian league with 177 goals.

Brown 6 Scotland caps 0 goals

Nisbet 10 Scotland caps 1 goal V Netherlands.

Shankland 5 Scotland caps 1 goal V San Marino.

Strikers are judged on goals at whatever level they play and at club or international level Shankland and Nisbet far excel Brown.

I do not have a bee in my bunnet about Brown. I do have a bee in my bunnet about us not seeking to upgrade our squad and Doak replacing Brown would be an upgrade.

[vanderark14]

6 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Jacob Brown 212 games a lmost half at level lower than Championship and 37 goals.

Kevin Nisbet 253 games most at SPL level but also lower level with 108 goals.

Lawrence Shankland 374 games a third of which in SPL and Belgian league with 177 goals.

Brown 6 Scotland caps 0 goals

Nisbet 10 Scotland caps 1 goal V Netherlands.

Shankland 5 Scotland caps 1 goal V San Marino.

Strikers are judged on goals at whatever level they play and at club or international level Shankland and Nisbet far excel Brown.

I do not have a bee in my bunnet about Brown. I do have a bee in my bunnet about us not seeking to upgrade our squad and Doak replacing Brown would be an upgrade.

Where did you get those stats? 

Edited August 14, 2023 by vanderark14

[Caledonian Craig]

10 minutes ago, vanderark14 said:

Where did you get those stats? 

Just a rough adding up off wikipedia. Feel free to  add your own figures but it does not skew the goals to games ratio.

At present our best strike force is with Dykes or Adams with likes of Christie supporting in behind. And that will probably remain the case through to (hopefully) the Euros next summer. Back up strikers at present are Nisbet and Shankland with Brown and Stewart knocking on the door. But if we were to lose Dykes and Adams we'd be toiling up front that is obvious. I would not be hopeful of our back-up strikers mentioned weighing in with goals. Doak though is an exciting prospect whose potential far exceeds our back up strikers and the sooner we can integrate him into our squad the better. True he is not an out-and-out striker but could be adapted to do so I feel.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Caledonian Craig

[borojock]

33 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

No its a valid point about improving our squad quality. Anyone who thinks Brown makes Scotland squads stronger than Doak are bonkers. No need to listen to me but I am sure Klopp would tell you the same.

Not sure why the Jacob Brown Appreciation Society are coming out in force here. If we want to progress to the next level as a side we need squad improvement and Doak offers that, Brown does not. 

As per my previous post which im assuming you didnt read

• I wouldn't have Brown in the squad if everything was fit
• I would have Doak over Brown 

What i was saying is i dont think we can dismiss anyone especially a 25 yr old who seems to play on the wing a lot and got a scoring record of 1 in 5 in the championship and just got a move to the PL. If we got a few injuries/suspenions/loss of form players like Brown would have to come into the squad therefore i wouldnt write him off  

The other point was it seems a lot of people dismiss the guy and i would assume they have barely seen him play - out of interest when you say Brown doesnt improve the squad which games of his have you watched to dismiss out of hand and on those specific games what did he do that turned you off him - give me the specifics pal please would be keen to get a taste of that expert knowledge  

[csinclair]

By no means do I think Brown is a definite pick for squads or anything but I don't understand why some on here seem to want to dismiss him when he's someone who's done well at English Championship level and hasn't really had a proper chance for Scotland as yet. 
Also what does Doak have to do with it? Personally, judging by Clarke's previous squads I'd be surprised to see him before the end of the year unless we manage to qualify in the next couple of games and he starts rotating squad places or we have a couple of injuries or Doak starts getting goals and assists for Liverpool and becomes impossible to ignore.
I think some people on here just need a player in the squad to criticise for the sake of it and currently it's Brown. I'm happy he's got his move to the EPL and if anything I want him to do well there and do well for Scotland.

[csinclair]

Fraser Hornby starts tonight for Darmstadt in the DFB Pokal. Intrigued to see how he gets on over in Germany 

[vanderark14]

4 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Just a rough adding up off wikipedia. Feel free to  add your own figures but it does not skew the goals to games ratio.

At present our best strike force is with Dykes or Adams with likes of Christie supporting in behind. And that will probably remain the case through to (hopefully) the Euros next summer. Back up strikers at present are Nisbet and Shankland with Brown and Stewart knocking on the door. But if we were to lose Dykes and Adams we'd be toiling up front that is obvious. I would not be hopeful of our back-up strikers mentioned weighing in with goals. Doak though is an exciting prospect whose potential far exceeds our back up strikers and the sooner we can integrate him into our squad the better. True he is not an out-and-out striker but could be adapted to do so I feel.

Thanks

I had a look at wiki too

The correct stats from there are

Jacob Brown 237 games a lmost half at level lower than Championship and 41 goals. 8 were scored in league one, the rest in the championship

Kevin Nisbet 253 games most at SPL level but also lower level with 108 goals. 69 were scored at a level below the Scottish Premiership - 4 which you included were scored in the SPFL development league

Lawrence Shankland 374 games a third of which in SPL and Belgian league with 177 goals. 130 of these goals were scored at a level below the Scottish Premiership. 

Not much difference to yours but its better to be accurate when arguing a point. What is most important is the detail within these stats which I have added. I would also add Brown hasn't been played as a striker as much as the others. 

I am not saying Brown is ahead of those two but he sure as hell isn't behind them.

I was looking forward to seeing how Stewart faired in the english championship, he got off to a flyer but the injury screwed him. He is due to be back end of next month and he is no into the last 12 months of his contract too. 

 

[mccaughey85]

1 hour ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Jacob Brown 212 games a lmost half at level lower than Championship and 37 goals.

Kevin Nisbet 253 games most at SPL level but also lower level with 108 goals.

Lawrence Shankland 374 games a third of which in SPL and Belgian league with 177 goals.

Brown 6 Scotland caps 0 goals

Nisbet 10 Scotland caps 1 goal V Netherlands.

Shankland 5 Scotland caps 1 goal V San Marino.

Strikers are judged on goals at whatever level they play and at club or international level Shankland and Nisbet far excel Brown.

I do not have a bee in my bunnet about Brown. I do have a bee in my bunnet about us not seeking to upgrade our squad and Doak replacing Brown would be an upgrade.

Alot of those goals were scored at lower levels of football like the scottish league 1 and championship. Even the spl isnt exactly brilliant standard. Nisbet and shankland have never really been tested at any kind of decent level. They both have 1 goal each at international level and even then shanklands was against San Marino. 

I am not browns biggest fan but if he does well in the epl and the championship next season which Luton will probsbly end up in then i dont see why he shouldn't get a chance to prove himself. 

Doak looks good and I think he will get his chances soon but it doesnt neccessarily need to be at browns expense especially if brown starts doing well for Luton.

[mccaughey85]

1 hour ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Just a rough adding up off wikipedia. Feel free to  add your own figures but it does not skew the goals to games ratio.

At present our best strike force is with Dykes or Adams with likes of Christie supporting in behind. And that will probably remain the case through to (hopefully) the Euros next summer. Back up strikers at present are Nisbet and Shankland with Brown and Stewart knocking on the door. But if we were to lose Dykes and Adams we'd be toiling up front that is obvious. I would not be hopeful of our back-up strikers mentioned weighing in with goals. Doak though is an exciting prospect whose potential far exceeds our back up strikers and the sooner we can integrate him into our squad the better. True he is not an out-and-out striker but could be adapted to do so I feel.

Not sure wether doak will be good as a striker. Hard to tell what kind of winger or forward he turns into. If he has lots of goals and can finish well then putting him upfront might be an option. 

Personally i think a change in formation might be worth a try in the future if the likes of doak and mebude turn into stars.

A 433 would be an option or a 541 with 2 wingers if doak turns into a more traditional winger. Maybe even a 523 could work with front three of doak dykes adams. 

From what i have seen of doak I dont see him much as a striker but that could change if he starts banging in goals. 

[ceudmilefailte]

2 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Jacob Brown 212 games a lmost half at level lower than Championship and 37 goals.

Kevin Nisbet 253 games most at SPL level but also lower level with 108 goals.

Lawrence Shankland 374 games a third of which in SPL and Belgian league with 177 goals.

Brown 6 Scotland caps 0 goals

Nisbet 10 Scotland caps 1 goal V Netherlands.

Shankland 5 Scotland caps 1 goal V San Marino.

Strikers are judged on goals at whatever level they play and at club or international level Shankland and Nisbet far excel Brown.

I do not have a bee in my bunnet about Brown. I do have a bee in my bunnet about us not seeking to upgrade our squad and Doak replacing Brown would be an upgrade.

Going to add in McBurnie's stats and you have our first choice striker.

[broraboy]

3 hours ago, csinclair said:

Fraser Hornby starts tonight for Darmstadt in the DFB Pokal. Intrigued to see how he gets on over in Germany 

Looks like Hornby played the full 90 minutes albeit a loss 

Here’s hoping he can resurrect his career!
Almost sure he was at Everton years ago and was fairly good with Scotland U21’s 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿