Exam Results

[Parklife]

All put much better than I could, phart. 👍

 

[aaid]

10 minutes ago, phart said:

What consultation was done on problem solving he issue, cause they just implemented a system that gave them the result they always want, a slight increase in results...

 

And your evidence for that is exactly what?

[exile]

From what I can see the schools authorities in other countries are doing the same kind of thing. I wonder why - perhaps it is the least worst solution?

That's not to say the situation is fair, or that the authorities couldn't work harder to have invented a fairer system.

As I far as I can see the attainment for those in deprived areas has gone up proportionately more than in other areas. Maybe the cynic would say this was deliberate. But perhaps any sort of affirmative action to account for deprivation could be accused of meddling or massaging the figures, or getting the answer people want.

I see Iain McWhirter arguing that if Nicola Sturgeon had endorsed 20% grade inflation she’d have been accused of closing the attainment gap by fraud.

[phart]

1 minute ago, aaid said:

And your evidence for that is exactly what?

It was told to me by the teaching staff at Jordanhill (Teacher training University under Strathclyde) by the folk who run the teacher training programme and write the exams for their subjects. (Science and Physics specifically) It was treated as common knowledge.

I said this further back in the thread.

[phart]

8 minutes ago, exile said:

From what I can see the schools authorities in other countries are doing the same kind of thing. I wonder why - perhaps it is the least worst solution?

That's not to say the situation is fair, or that the authorities couldn't work harder to have invented a fairer system.

As I far as I can see the attainment for those in deprived areas has gone up proportionately more than in other areas. Maybe the cynic would say this was deliberate. But perhaps any sort of affirmative action to account for deprivation could be accused of meddling or massaging the figures, or getting the answer people want.

I see Iain McWhirter arguing that if Nicola Sturgeon had endorsed 20% grade inflation she’d have been accused of closing the attainment gap by fraud.

Can you show the other countries please? I know England are doing it differently.

A quick google for France and we have

"Record number of French students pass final exams

However, most students knew their results in advance as a continuous assessment policy was exceptionally used this year, as a result of the Covid-19 health crisis disrupting normal school timetables. This meant that only results from students’ first and second trimesters were used to calculate exam results.

The 95.1% pass rate is a “record” in France, up 13.7 points on results last year." So different.

Germany are having exams. so again different

Edited August 8, 2020 by phart

[aaid]

7 minutes ago, phart said:

It was told to me by the teaching staff at Jordanhill (Teacher training University under Strathclyde) by the folk who run the teacher training programme and write the exams for their subjects. (Science and Physics specifically) It was treated as common knowledge.

I said this further back in the thread.

When you were doing teacher training - how many years ago was that?

I'm talking specifically about this year's process.

Edited August 8, 2020 by aaid

[exile]

3 minutes ago, phart said:

Can you show the other countries please? I know England are doing it differently.

I said "same kind of thing" by which I meant the broad approach of moderation, whereby teachers give estimates and another authority moderates them - that result in headlines that are the subject of public debate. Literally I don't have time right now to research further, sorry

 

3 hours ago, phart said:

They chose to moderate them, and they chose to moderate so that it showed a slight increase from the year before.

They had a result they wanted and then adjusted everything to fit the result they wanted.

They had to throw out a lot of (imperfect) measurements they did have to achieve this.

They wanted the road to measure a mile so they changed the stride length of a lot of folk who had paced the distance.

 

Do you have evidence to support these claims?

 

[phart]

1 minute ago, aaid said:

When you were doing teacher training - how many years ago was that?

14/15 it was 2005/06 academic year.

Just went looking at the trends, actually since the SNP got into power the exam results have fell each year with one exception. (for highers). So it is entirely possible there has been a change in culture.

 

[phart]

5 minutes ago, exile said:

I said "same kind of thing" by which I meant the broad approach of moderation, whereby teachers give estimates and another authority moderates them - that result in headlines that are the subject of public debate. Literally I don't have time right now to research further, sorry

 

 

 

But i went and looked and folk aren't doing the same kind of thing, France had no moderation, Germany is having exams. England is offering exams. Can't you even provide the place where you got your information?

 

 

[aaid]

21 minutes ago, phart said:

Can you show the other countries please? I know England are doing it differently.

A quick google for France and we have

"Record number of French students pass final exams

However, most students knew their results in advance as a continuous assessment policy was exceptionally used this year, as a result of the Covid-19 health crisis disrupting normal school timetables. This meant that only results from students’ first and second trimesters were used to calculate exam results.

The 95.1% pass rate is a “record” in France, up 13.7 points on results last year." So different.

Germany are having exams. so again different

England is doing something very similar to Scotland.  The exams they are offering in England are in the autumn term.   Given English schools don't start back until September, I doubt there will be time for people to sit exams, get their results back in order to start a university course the following month.   Hertsscot, seems to suggest there'll be a very low take up on this offer.   I'd imagine that anyone looking to re-sit - or in reality sit - their A-levels will defer that for a year and sit them next year when they've had sufficient time to prepare.

France from the sounds of it has a system which isn't so dependent on the final exam for awards - maybe that's worth looking at but not something you can retro-fit.

German schools went back in April and May, so that's not a fair comparison.

[phart]

Just now, aaid said:

England is doing something very similar to Scotland.  The exams they are offering in England are in the autumn term.   Given English schools don't start back until September, I doubt there will be time for people to sit exams, get their results back in order to start a university course the following month.   Hertsscot, seems to suggest there'll be a very low take up on this offer.   I'd imagine that anyone looking to re-sit - or in reality sit - their A-levels will defer that for a year and sit them next year when they've had sufficient time to prepare.

France from the sounds of it has a system which isn't so dependent on the final exam for awards - maybe that's worth looking at but not something you can retro-fit.

German schools went back in April and May, so that's not a fair comparison.

Yeah but the context is "the schools authorities in other countries are doing the same kind of thing" when they aren't. You're just listing the reasons why they aren't doing the same sort of thing.

[aaid]

5 minutes ago, phart said:

Yeah but the context is "the schools authorities in other countries are doing the same kind of thing" when they aren't. You're just listing the reasons why they aren't doing the same sort of thing.

The only comparison that is fair to make is with schools in England and Wales as those are the only two countries that have had a similar COVID experience to Scotland and also have a similar education and examination system.

For France, is there a corresponding 13.7% increase in the number of university students next term or will it be the same as it was last year as all that's happened is that the bar for entry has been moved up?

Edited August 8, 2020 by aaid

[phart]

2 minutes ago, aaid said:

For France, is there a corresponding 13.7% increase in the number of university students next term or will it be the same as it was last year as all that's happened is that the bar for entry has been moved up?

No idea, I was just fact checking a claim made on here.

[aaid]

6 minutes ago, phart said:

No idea, I was just fact checking a claim made on here.

That the nub of the problem though.   If you let the results go through unmoderated, accept a "record" pass mark, but all that it does is shift the bar up then it helps no-one.

If you take something like medicine, one of the most difficult courses to get into.  They will still be looking to accept the top x% of applicants.  In previous years that might be 4As and a B, this year that might be 5As.  People may have conditional offers of 4As and a B that will have to be withdrawn.

[phart]

8 minutes ago, aaid said:

That the nub of the problem though.   If you let the results go through unmoderated, accept a "record" pass mark, but all that it does is shift the bar up then it helps no-one.

If you take something like medicine, one of the most difficult courses to get into.  They will still be looking to accept the top x% of applicants.  In previous years that might be 4As and a B, this year that might be 5As.  People may have conditional offers of 4As and a B that will have to be withdrawn.

The don't use the same system as here they sift as the study progresses. You go into PCEM1 then they sift after that first year of university, as opposed to here where it is sifted before the first year of study.

All French high school students who apply are admitted freely into the first year of med school or "PCEM1". There is literally no difficulty to get in. Staying in is the problem.

This further renders looking at what other countries are doing as an irrelevance.

Edited August 8, 2020 by phart

[aaid]

4 minutes ago, phart said:

The don't use the same system as here they sift as the study progresses. You go into PCEM1 then they sift after that first year of university, as opposed to here where it is sifted before the first year of study.

All French high school students who apply are admitted freely into the first year of med school or "PCEM1". There is literally no difficulty to get in. Staying in is the problem.

This further renders looking at what other countries are doing as an irrelevance.

I'm talking about Scotland, not France in this case.   What would happen to entry to medical school in Scotland in October if the results were unmoderated.   How many people would be accepted and who would they be or how would that be decided?

Edited August 8, 2020 by aaid

[phart]

10 minutes ago, aaid said:

I'm talking about Scotland, not France in this case.   What would happen to entry to medical school in Scotland in October if the results were unmoderated.   How many people would be accepted and who would they be or how would that be decided?

Not sure how I can answer specifically who would be accepted. The Universities would decide and they use a UCAT test. Medicine is controlled subject and the amount for Edinburgh university would be 207.

The answer to the question is nothing would happen if they went unmoderated.

Edited August 8, 2020 by phart

[aaid]

2 minutes ago, phart said:

Not sure how I can answer specifically who would be accepted. The Universities would decide and they use a UCAT test. Medicine is controlled subject and the amount for Edinburgh university would be 207.

The answer to the question is nothing would happen if they went unmoderated.

Conditional offers will have been made based on predicted grades submitted a year ago.   

I assume that universities "over-offer" based on previous experience that a percentage of those offers won't get the grades required and a percentage won't take up the offer and go somewhere else - in the same way that airlines overbook flights - otherwise they will run the risk of not having a full intake. 

If the unmoderated assessments means that - for Edinburgh - 300 people who have received conditional offers have made the grades stated in the offer, and of that 250 want to take up the offer.

Edinburgh can only have an intake of 207, so how do they deal with that?

[phart]

11 minutes ago, aaid said:

Conditional offers will have been made based on predicted grades submitted a year ago.   

I assume that universities "over-offer" based on previous experience that a percentage of those offers won't get the grades required and a percentage won't take up the offer and go somewhere else - in the same way that airlines overbook flights - otherwise they will run the risk of not having a full intake. 

If the unmoderated assessments means that - for Edinburgh - 300 people who have received conditional offers have made the grades stated in the offer, and of that 250 want to take up the offer.

Edinburgh can only have an intake of 207, so how do they deal with that?

All candidates who submit their application to UCAS by the 15 October deadline and meet all academic requirements are entered into the selection process.

https://www.ed.ac.uk/medicine-vet-medicine/edinburgh-medical-school/medicine/applying/selection

their contact details are on there, go ask them. Let us know what they say!

Edited August 8, 2020 by phart

[phart]

https://www.ed.ac.uk/files/imports/fileManager/MBChB Handbook.pdf

There's the selectors handbook you can peruse that at your leisure if you have anymore questions. I'm assuming you can find out the answers without me holding your hand through the process.

[aaid]

28 minutes ago, phart said:

https://www.ed.ac.uk/files/imports/fileManager/MBChB Handbook.pdf

There's the selectors handbook you can peruse that at your leisure if you have anymore questions. I'm assuming you can find out the answers without me holding your hand through the process.

I'm only using medicine as an example and you know that fine well, I'm not planning on applying this year or any year so don't really care.

Regardless of the circumstances, do you think that an unexpected large increase in the pass rate does not have consequences for the intake into tertiary education?

[exile]

2 hours ago, phart said:

But i went and looked and folk aren't doing the same kind of thing, France had no moderation, Germany is having exams. England is offering exams. Can't you even provide the place where you got your information?

 

 

But if you don't already accept that England is doing the same kind of thing (moderation) then it seems you are seeking a more detailed point by point dissection of education that is beyond the general thrust of the debate, and in that case I'm happy to leave it to the experts. I had heard that the Irish system was similar too (ie with moderation) but I haven't had time to check it.

The important point is that there is a danger that individual students are being disadvantaged - which I said originally - and there should be a way of ensuring that doesn't happen or is minimised.

That said, it's not a black and white issue. It seems that the most deprived schools were 'marked down' more, but, it seems their grades had been overestimated more in the first place, and in the end, their final grades went up more, proportionately, compared to last year, than the less deprived schools, and so the atteinment gap has actually reduced. But from the British media reaction only the first of these points is heard, and I think it's worth airing the other points, not too partisan to do so, I think.

Incidentally I found this explanation of the system

https://theferret.scot/how-were-scottish-pupils-exam-grades-decided/

[Hertsscot]

2 hours ago, aaid said:

The only comparison that is fair to make is with schools in England and Wales as those are the only two countries that have had a similar COVID experience to Scotland and also have a similar education and examination system.

I would hate anyone to think the English system will be any better than that in Scotland. The  possibility of taking exams in the autumn looks like P.R. Most A level students will already have been accepted by a university, so they'll not resit. Most who have got a job or apprenticeship will not resit. Those students who got the same or better than they expected will not resit. Only those who aren't in the first two categories and didn't get what they think they deserve might resit. Even then that's a massive ask of students who won't have had any formal education for six months and will not have completed their courses and could be sitting exams in early October. 

At GCSE students will already have been accepted on post16 courses by the time these exams come round in November so I can't see too many retaking them as they'll be three months into new courses. Of course those students who didn't get a grade 4 in Maths or English will already be enrolled on those or similar courses as part of their continuing  post 16 education.Those students probably aren't going to be wanting to 'resit' even more exams if they don't need to. 

I don't know what the appeals procedure is like in Scotland but judging from what I've looked at the system in England is very restrictive and Id be surprised if it resulted in many changes.

[aaid]

10 minutes ago, Hertsscot said:

I would hate anyone to think the English system will be any better than that in Scotland. The  possibility of taking exams in the autumn looks like P.R. Most A level students will already have been accepted by a university, so they'll not resit. Most who have got a job or apprenticeship will not resit. Those students who got the same or better than they expected will not resit. Only those who aren't in the first two categories and didn't get what they think they deserve might resit. Even then that's a massive ask of students who won't have had any formal education for six months and will not have completed their courses and could be sitting exams in early October. 

At GCSE students will already have been accepted on post16 courses by the time these exams come round in November so I can't see too many retaking them as they'll be three months into new courses. Of course those students who didn't get a grade 4 in Maths or English will already be enrolled on those or similar courses as part of their continuing  post 16 education.Those students probably aren't going to be wanting to 'resit' even more exams if they don't need to. 

I don't know what the appeals procedure is like in Scotland but judging from what I've looked at the system in England is very restrictive and Id be surprised if it resulted in many changes.

That pretty much tallies with my thinking on the offer of exams in the autumn, that it's PR.

For Scotland, the outcome of the appeals process, where individual students will be looked at based on their own merits should be pretty illuminating.  I'd expect that if the supporting evidence isn't there to justify the assessment then the appeal will be rejected, if it is, then it will succeed.  That should address any genuine anomalies.

However, it will also highlight the root of the problem, accurate assessments being downgraded incorrectly or assessments being overestimated by teachers.

 

 

[phart]

 

2 hours ago, aaid said:

I'm only using medicine as an example and you know that fine well, I'm not planning on applying this year or any year so don't really care.

Regardless of the circumstances, do you think that an unexpected large increase in the pass rate does not have consequences for the intake into tertiary education?

Every variable has consequences we live in a Causal Universe. What the variable and it's consequence happen to be is what matters. Without those defined it's a vaccous point.