thplinth Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 I don't have any problems with people who have moved away. We all have to make our way in the world. As has been said previously, it's a matter of where to draw the line. The residential approach seemed to be the best and easiest. If I hadn't lived in the UK for 14 years, I'm not sure why I should be able to vote in UK elections. Well 15 years is the cut off and any mark will be arbitrary to some degree but that seems reasonable to me and why the likely chose it, any less than 15 years and I would say you are still more probable to return but any more than 15 years probably not. It is a decent period of grace without getting silly. It seems to me fairer than a purely residential rule. But as I say horribly moot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flure Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Wasn't the American independence movement all about "No taxation without representation"? What the UK have got here is "Representation without taxation". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobby Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 (edited) Apples and Oranges. Scotty emigrated with his parents when he was a boy I believe. Not the same thing as moving away for a few years to work abroad. if it means that much to someone move back and vote, simple. Edited October 9, 2014 by Nobby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Yes, it's that simple, that is why they left in the first place, so they could not vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobby Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Yes, it's that simple, that is why they left in the first place, so they could not vote. I think we shall just have to agree to disagree. Live there, get a vote. Dont live there, dont get a vote. People emigrate for all sorts of reasons but it boils down presumably to wanting a better life. Independence hasnt stopped Ireland from being a country with large emigration so why would Scotland be any different ? It might be who knows but I doubt it, anyway like you say its a moot point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 I think we shall just have to agree to disagree. Live there, get a vote. Dont live there, dont get a vote. People emigrate for all sorts of reasons but it boils down presumably to wanting a better life. Independence hasnt stopped Ireland from being a country with large emigration so why would Scotland be any different ? It might be who knows but I doubt it, anyway like you say its a moot point. Has any developed country a population growth as small as Scotland's though? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobby Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Has any developed country a population growth as small as Scotland's though? Genuinely dont know the answer to that but even if the population growth needs lifting it doesn't chage the fact that only the people that live in Scotland should vote on its independence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Genuinely dont know the answer to that but even if the population growth needs lifting it doesn't chage the fact that only the people that live in Scotland should vote on its independence. Absolutely. The population growth is another issue. Struggling to find stats but Scotland's population has only increased by around 600k in the past 100 years Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morag Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Wasn't the American independence movement all about "No taxation without representation"? What the UK have got here is "Representation without taxation". It's a very simple idea. You pay tax, you vote. And it's the perfect argument to use against those who don't like the idea of 16/17 year-olds voting. No vote = no taxation. Start voting at 18? Then kids only start paying tax then too. Otherwise people who don't have to live with the political consequences, are allowed to support policy decisions for the people who do. A bit like people in the south-east of England having the power to impose the Poll Tax on just the Scots Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 So a pensioner who has paid taxes their whole life in Scotland and who retires abroad is instantly disenfranchised? Someone who has already banked a lifetime of taxes is punished for having the temerity to live abroad? I don't think you have thought this through folks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flure Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 So a pensioner who has paid taxes their whole life in Scotland and who retires abroad is instantly disenfranchised? Someone who has already banked a lifetime of taxes is punished for having the temerity to live abroad? I don't think you have thought this through folks. Have they emigrated abroad? To live somewhere else? Are they still paying UK tax? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 What if your Employer in Scotland asks you to go overseas? What if you join the army? Dearie me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Read more here... http://votes-for-expat-brits.com/In-Parliament.php Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flure Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 What if your Employer in Scotland asks you to go overseas? What if you join the army? Dearie me... Scots in the army were allowed to vote in the referendum. Similarly, those on "crown" service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flure Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Read more here... http://votes-for-expat-brits.com/In-Parliament.php No. Bored now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Giles Tremlett’s article in The Guardian in which he contrasts the disenfranchisement of British expats with France’s 11 parliamentary seats representing French expats throughout the world. Wow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Scots in the army were allowed to vote in the referendum. Similarly, those on "crown" service. Indeed making the law discriminatory as well.. Members of the armed forces, Crown servants, and employees of the British Council are exempted from the 15-year rule. So a Briton employed by the European Commission loses the right to vote after living in Brussels for more than 15 years, whereas a Briton working on the other side of the road for the UK Embassy to the European Union will not. The treaties of the European Union grant to all European citizens the right to live and work in another state of the EU. The fundamental rights of EU citizens to move freelywithin the EU was never intended to be subject to restrictions or penalties, as the Court of Justice of the EU has consistently pointed out. If a country places restrictionsor penalties on its own citizens who wish to avail themselves of these basic rights, it is guilty of discriminating against its own citizens to the benefit of citizens of other EUMember States, whose free movement to other countries is not penalized. Many Britons live abroad because they were posted there by their UK employers, orbecause they represent the UK in international organizations or NGOs, such as the European institutions in Brussels or agencies of the United Nations. These are peoplewho fly the flag for Britain abroad. Why should they be penalized by being deprived of the right to vote? Whatever you say this is far from black or white, right or wrong... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flure Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Indeed making the law discriminatory as well.. Whatever you say this is far from black or white, right or wrong... I know. So trying to get best fit will have people having different opinions. Hay-ho! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Label Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Have they emigrated abroad? To live somewhere else? Are they still paying UK tax? What form of tax would you agree with? Income, council, or in a reciprocal tax agreement in their country of abode? On a separate note, I have come across 2 individuals that live in KL and actually travelled back just to vote no, using their Scotland property address which they do not have rented out. Legal or not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flure Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 What form of tax would you agree with? Income, council, or in a reciprocal tax agreement in their country of abode? On a separate note, I have come across 2 individuals that live in KL and actually travelled back just to vote no, using their Scotland property address which they do not have rented out. Legal or not? Probably illegal. I think the term used was "ordinarily resident in Scotland" or some such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 I know. So trying to get best fit will have people having different opinions. Hay-ho! Hmmm not quite but. You guys are the ones saying 'exclude Scottish expats', based it seems on them 'not paying tax' mostly but I have shown that argument to be badly flawed. I have also highlighted the inconsistencies of treating soldiers differently to others who have jobs that are likely to send them overseas at some point, as well as pensioners who move abroad after making a lifetimes worth of contributions to the UK tax pot. You are the ones agreeing with their Scottish disenfranchisement not me. My system would include residents and expats and so is fair(er). Consequently, as your position leads to disenfranchisement of expats, it is I humbly suggest perhaps more your responsibility to be sure your position is sound. In my view it is not and it should be revisited. Again all IMHO of course. (You have about 10 years to think about it all again at least before it may become an issue once more so take your time.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 I may be picking this up wrong but is there a sense of resentment to Scottish expats amongst some in the Yes campaign, like a 'splitters' type thing? Who really wants to leave all their friends and family and go live somewhere else their whole life? Most of the time folk leave because the opportunities at home are simply not there for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flure Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Hmmm not quite but. You guys are the ones saying 'exclude Scottish expats', based it seems on them 'not paying tax' mostly but I have shown that argument to be badly flawed. I have also highlighted the inconsistencies of treating soldiers differently to others who have jobs that are likely to send them overseas at some point, as well as pensioners who move abroad after making a lifetimes worth of contributions to the UK tax pot. You are the ones agreeing with their Scottish disenfranchisement not me. My system would include residents and expats and so is fair(er). Consequently, as your position leads to disenfranchisement of expats, it is I humbly suggest perhaps more your responsibility to be sure your position is sound. In my view it is not and it should be revisited. Again all IMHO of course. (You have about 10 years to think about it all again at least before it may become an issue once more so take your time.) Nope. The last referendum rules suited me fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peever1745 Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 If you don't live hear you should not get a vote. Only members of the armed forces should get a vote if they are stationed in Scotland,if not then they should be treated like the rest of the expats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flure Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 I may be picking this up wrong but is there a sense of resentment to Scottish expats amongst some in the Yes campaign, like a 'splitters' type thing? Not that I've picked up, no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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