People V Carmichael 9 Nov 2015

[thplinth]

Everybody does

I could do a post...

You are a bit like an ice berg... it wasn't your fault by anyone's standards buuuut......

[antidote]

On a more serious and on topic note.

Don't you think that it is a double edged sword that the fund raiser for the Orkney 4 is a bit dangerous. Dangerous in the sense if the lying lump, Alistair Carbuncle, knows there is money to be had, which is very visible, then he'll go for costs against the four of them.

I suspect he will anyway knowing this money is there.

Thoughts?

Edited December 10, 2015 by antidote

[Guest]

I've spent the last 20 minutes ponderating (I'm making words up now) this, and I can't apply it to a nation state as you have... It doesn't compute. I can with proletariat vs ruling class though. I think we're wired differently Plinthy!

From Statehood and the Law of Self-Determination:

"Lenin proposed self-determination, defined as a right to secession, solely as a tool, a vehicle or strategic concept for the realisation of the integration of all nations, that is, a universal socialist community. Indeed, the creation of separate Nation-states was by no means the object of the application of self-determination. Rather the existence of nation states formed a transitional period towards a classless society, which could only be realised on a worldwide basis."

Edited December 10, 2015 by Mash it up Harry

[Orraloon]

This is my 4th post in this thread, you have 5, So it would be 3 posts for me. Now admittedly what i can do with my brain and 3 posts is obviously impressive, but i think making the argument that i can hijack a 291 reply thread in 3 posts might be over-stating even my abilities.

There's a reason folk switched from "thinking" to the use of empirical data in studies. The folk using thinking are working with superstition and magical Machiavellian message board posters, while the empirical data folk have technology and social sciences.

[aaid]

On a more serious and on topic note.

Don't you think that it is a double edged sword that the fund raiser for the Orkney 4 is a bit dangerous. Dangerous in the sense if the lying lump, Alistair Carbuncle, knows there is money to be had, which is very visible, then he'll go for costs against the four of them.

I suspect he will anyway knowing this money is there.

Thoughts?

The money in the fundraiser is to pay the costs of the petitioners. Last time I looked it was a shade under £190k so there is still a bit to go. Carmichael's costs would add another £150k to that.

If he was awarded costs then that would bankrupt the petitioners and would be a really bad step.

I thought the court decides whether costs are awarded and given the full judgement, I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't.

[DonnyTJS]

Survation was one

http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/politics/fear-of-snp-won-election-for-david-cameron-1.888596

Something a bit odd about that article once you get beyond the headline. A polling organization is casting around for excuses on why it got the result tits up and quotes figures galore, except for the SNP fear factor. "We know that people were concerned about the SNP", but no figures to back the statement up. Given the plethora of percentages elsewhere, it seems strange.

Still, I'll hold my hands up and admit that I'd forgotten about the Milliband in Salmond's pocket stuff (dying brain and not being in the country, I guess). I think it certainly added to the general perception that Milliband would make a weak prime minister but I remain unconvinced that the SNP were a significant factor (plenty of folk in here didn't believe the polls), though no doubt it would have shifted some.

[thplinth]

Well you're at 6 and i'm at 5 now. Here;'s my opinion on the subject. Thplinth has just been getting bored with Scunnered posting his "propaganda" all over the board, and has decided to call him on it. The same way flat earth and calmac did with scotty and Donny did with jude.

I can see why you think what you do. It used to get on my goat that FE or someone would always seem to be in a thread i had an interest on arguing about Jesus or creationism or the illuminati. I don't think any of them were deliberately hijacking, just immersed in their own argument, and i think it's the same case here.

I never noticed this last night. Correct. He is not going away is he? So instead of the drip drip of anti snp posting let's explore his ideas then lets see what they are made of... I don't think they are standing up to scrutiny too well.

I find astonishing reading this again that Rossy a guy with a stinking post content in general comes on the thread and tells two folk having a polite interaction to shut up and fukk off.

Maybe you should bin all the rancid shit you post on here before going around lecturing folk about having a mild conversation.

Plenty threads go off topic and I don't see you running around on them acting the w*** like you are on here. Fukking ridiculous in fact.

[Armchair Bob]

I don't think the SNP factor had a major bearing in the GE in England.

Milliband's uselessness and the collapse of the Lib Dems more than adequately explains David Cameron's majority - which isn't actually that big.

[aaid]

Something a bit odd about that article once you get beyond the headline. A polling organization is casting around for excuses on why it got the result tits up and quotes figures galore, except for the SNP fear factor. "We know that people were concerned about the SNP", but no figures to back the statement up. Given the plethora of percentages elsewhere, it seems strange.

There is a very good reason why you don't see any figures quoted for the number of people who changed their vote because of a fear of the SNP - or for any other reason for that matter. That's because there is no data to support that because they didn't ask that question.

What Survation did was to ring round people they had polled just before the GE to ask them how they actually voted, the purpose of this was to look for a late shift to explain why the polls didn't accurately predict the result. The key thing is, the didn't ask people why they changed their minds, just whether they changed their minds or not.

Any reasons why people changed and whether fear of the SNP was a factor is pure speculation.

[Dave78]

There is a very good reason why you don't see any figures quoted for the number of people who changed their vote because of a fear of the SNP - or for any other reason for that matter. That's because there is no data to support that because they didn't ask that question.

What Survation did was to ring round people they had polled just before the GE to ask them how they actually voted, the purpose of this was to look for a late shift to explain why the polls didn't accurately predict the result. The key thing is, the didn't ask people why they changed their minds, just whether they changed their minds or not.

Any reasons why people changed and whether fear of the SNP was a factor is pure speculation.

It seems they did ask something, though i'm not sure it was the right question....

http://survation.com/the-general-election-2015-the-polls-what-happened/

"Firstly, a Survation poll for the Mail on Sunday the week before the election highlighted public concerns about the possible outcome of the election. With all indications pointing to a hung parliament at the time, the public were very concerned that the election would result in some form of Labour-SNP deal – something which, as the chart below shows, voters from all parties were concerned about. Well under half even of Labour voters UK-wide thought such an outcome would be “legitimate”, whilst among UKIP and the Liberal Democrats, concern was even higher."

[Dave78]

Much of the Tory voters fear of the SNP would have been created by the industrial strength propaganda pumped out by the English right-wing press in the run up to the election:

http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-wild-weekend/#more-70269

http://wingsoverscotland.com/zoomers-on-stunned/#more-69955

[Scunnered]

From Statehood and the Law of Self-Determination:

"Lenin proposed self-determination, defined as a right to secession, solely as a tool, a vehicle or strategic concept for the realisation of the integration of all nations, that is, a universal socialist community. Indeed, the creation of separate Nation-states was by no means the object of the application of self-determination. Rather the existence of nation states formed a transitional period towards a classless society, which could only be realised on a worldwide basis."

Very good Harry

This was discussed at length during the run up to the referendum. Lenin specifies in his writing that the above applies to oppressed nations, and cited several examples including colonised Ireland. Marx and Engels concluded that the working class of England, Scotland and Wales would evolve together and unity was key... A sound bite seized upon by Better Together in the form of "a welder on Glasgow & a welder in Liverpool" much to the disgust of comrades.

[neilly71]

My faither in law is an unemployed welder and he voted YES, roon ye Lenin.

[Scunnered]

Very good Harry

This was discussed at length during the run up to the referendum. Lenin specifies in his writing that the above applies to oppressed nations, and cited several examples including colonised Ireland. Marx and Engels concluded that the working class of England, Scotland and Wales would evolve together and unity was key... A sound bite seized upon by Better Together in the form of "a welder on Glasgow & a welder in Liverpool" much to the disgust of comrades.

To expand and to reiterate my need for the SNP to adjust their economic plan, or be defeated. The SNP's plans for economic growth was to lower corporation tax, and offer businesses incentives to relocate to Scotland resulting in a, to quote Lord Darling, "a race to the bottom", as capital competition increases the whole economic approach is to keep costs down, resulting in lower wages, meanwhile the capital ruling class create resentment between North & South.

If the independence question is raised again, it need to be immediately of benefit to the people, not capital.

[Marky]

To expand and to reiterate my need for the SNP to adjust their economic plan, or be defeated. The SNP's plans for economic growth was to lower corporation tax, and offer businesses incentives to relocate to Scotland resulting in a, to quote Lord Darling, "a race to the bottom", as capital competition increases the whole economic approach is to keep costs down, resulting in lower wages, meanwhile the capital ruling class create resentment between North & South.

If the independence question is raised again, it need to be immediately of benefit to the people, not capital.

Right so picture the scene.

You're wee Nicola sat in Holyrood and your thinking "That kent Scunnered on the TAMB hinks ma policies are pure pish. Ah'll get him tae vote SNP (and yes) if it's the last thing ah dae."

What's your plan Scunnola?

So far I've only heard what's pish. Gimme the good stuff!

[Dave78]

To expand and to reiterate my need for the SNP to adjust their economic plan, or be defeated. The SNP's plans for economic growth was to lower corporation tax, and offer businesses incentives to relocate to Scotland resulting in a, to quote Lord Darling, "a race to the bottom", as capital competition increases the whole economic approach is to keep costs down, resulting in lower wages, meanwhile the capital ruling class create resentment between North & South.

[antidote]

To expand and to reiterate my need for the SNP to adjust their economic plan, or be defeated. The SNP's plans for economic growth was to lower corporation tax, and offer businesses incentives to relocate to Scotland resulting in a, to quote Lord Darling, "a race to the bottom", as capital competition increases the whole economic approach is to keep costs down, resulting in lower wages, meanwhile the capital ruling class create resentment between North & South.

If the independence question is raised again, it need to be immediately of benefit to the people, not capital.

What a convenient you quoting that sell out merchant.

There are many people in Scotland who like capital, are they not part of the people too?

[Bzzzz]

To expand and to reiterate my need for the SNP to adjust their economic plan, or be defeated. The SNP's plans for economic growth was to lower corporation tax, and offer businesses incentives to relocate to Scotland resulting in a, to quote Lord Darling, "a race to the bottom", as capital competition increases the whole economic approach is to keep costs down, resulting in lower wages, meanwhile the capital ruling class create resentment between North & South.

If the independence question is raised again, it need to be immediately of benefit to the people, not capital.

You know you are losing your argument when you start quoting s like that. ffs...

[MacWalka]

Loving folk picking holes in the Darling quote rather than the actual argument Scunnered is offering.

I would like to see an alternative plan but considering the UK corporation tax level is already low, an iScotland lowering it further would create a race to the bottom and especially animosity between Scotland and Northern England.

[Scunnered]

Loving folk picking holes in the Darling quote rather than the actual argument Scunnered is offering.

I would like to see an alternative plan but considering the UK corporation tax level is already low, an iScotland lowering it further would create a race to the bottom and especially animosity between Scotland and Northern England.

I notice they didn't blink when I mentioned just a couple of posts previous that one of his quotes brought disgust to the left.

[Scunnered]

You know you are losing your argument when you start quoting ######s like that. ffs...

I don't feel I'm losing my argument in the slightest. I'd be very surprised if more than a couple on here want to live in a country who's entire economy is based around corporate benefit.

[Marky]

Right so picture the scene.

You're wee Nicola sat in Holyrood and your thinking "That kent Scunnered on the TAMB hinks ma policies are pure pish. Ah'll get him tae vote SNP (and yes) if it's the last thing ah dae."

What's your plan Scunnola?

So far I've only heard what's pish. Gimme the good stuff!

Tick tock tick tock

[Scunnered]

Tick tock tick tock

I'm at work. That's a lengthy post you're asking me to write... I didn't realise I was deadlined

[Marky]

I'm at work. That's a lengthy post you're asking me to write... I didn't realise I was deadlined

Ha Ha. Fair enough.

But now the pressure is on. I'm expecting something really good.

[Scunnered]

Ha Ha. Fair enough.

But now the pressure is on. I'm expecting something really good.

I could link you to Britains road to Socialism in the meantime? It's wonderful!