neil r Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 What about the ship that was torpedoed off the west coast of Scotland killing hundreds.churchill kept it a secret from the public so as not to keep morale down. Sorry im sure someone knows the name of the ship. HMS Dasher went down in 1943 with around 400 lives lost. The news was kept out of the press through fear of lowering morale. It wasn't torpedoed though and there's very possibly a fascinating connection between it and Operation Mincemeat. Anyhow if this is the one you're thinking of then "what about" it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobby Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 A War Office minute of 12 May 1919 in which Winston Churchill argued: "I do not understand this squeamishness about the use of gas. We have definitely adopted the position at the Peace Conference of arguing in favour of the retention of gas as a permanent method of warfare. “It is sheer affectation to lacerate a man with the poisonous fragment of a bursting shell and to boggle at making his eyes water by means of lachrymatory gas. I am strongly in favour of using poisoned gas against uncivilised tribes. “The moral effect should be so good that the loss of life should be reduced to a minimum. It is not necessary to use only the most deadly gasses: gasses can be used which cause great inconvenience and would spread a lively terror and yet would leave no serious permanent effects on most of those affected.” Maybe he thought the Scots were an 'uncivilised tribe’. He may have let us off with just the 'inconvenience' type of gas – he was a kindly soul, after all. (Wanted the army given permission to shoot strikers in ’26.) My family in Edinburgh despised him. And there were tales that many rank and file in the Army in North Africa would have gladly murdered him had he ventured there on one of his morale-boosting trips. A twat!!! Don't see what the issue with using tear gas is ? I'd rather be tear gassed than shot at !! I don't know the ins and outs of the 51st being left behind but I doubt it was a deliberate act. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobby Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Churchill, what a . What a laugh this drunken phanny is held up as a hero. Nope he was of his time. Judging people through history using today's standards isn't really a good idea. Take the Romans they were proper bunny rabbits !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huddersfield Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Nope he was of his time. Judging people through history using today's standards isn't really a good idea. Take the Romans they were proper bunny rabbits !! He was of his time but, in my opinion far more importantly, of his class. A group of people who spent a generation in fear of red revolution & acted accordingly to protect their interests. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellyman Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 You only have to look at the dates to see how the 51st were deserted - June 4th last of the BEF & french troops evacuated from Dunkirk. The 51st surrendered on the 12th June a full 8 days after Dunkirk , to add insult to injury the French surrendered first, when it was put to some of the troops from the Seaforths and Gordons to surrender they point blank said no. Full respect to these guys who went far and beyond the call of duty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 My grandparents lived in Gorebridge, and grandfather worked in pits. Churchill was hated with a vengeance because of his actions against the miners during the strike. same here. Mother was from a fife mining family, said they used to boo if he ever came on the cinema screen...drunken rat is another phrase I heard about him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mariokempes56 Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Greatest Englishman who ever lived,, oh wait sorry greatest Britain ever.. Let's get it right chaps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bristolhibby Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 the letters page in the herald has a good letter from a Lewis guy and the story of how he left 1000's of Highlanders to their death/capture at Dunkirk,, i will try and paste a copy.. My late grandfather in law was part of the 51st Highland Division, serving in the Black Watch. Taking sentiment aside, somebody had to hold the line to let the Army retreat. Who would you rather? Surrendering French, demoralised British troops, or the highly disciplined crack fighters in the 51st Highland Division. I treat their scrafice as testament to their courage. They knew they were facing death or a lengthy dangerous time as POWs. Yet they fought on in a disciplined manner allowing the bulk of the BEF to get home to form the nucleus of the British Army. Breaking their weapons before surrendering. No shame IMO. J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irnbruman Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Usual BBC w@nkfest - where's Clare Balding? Meanwhile also on the news - there's a wee bit of snow in Derbyshire - get the camera crews quick! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobby Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 He was of his time but, in my opinion far more importantly, of his class. A group of people who spent a generation in fear of red revolution & acted accordingly to protect their interests. All true but the same could be said of many other leaders throughout history. He was of a time that is now alien to us and I don't doubt he was a hard that could make tough decisions that many would disagree with but I'm still feckin glad he was about when he was. Others will disagree and they have every right to, but to just dismiss him as a nasty bit of work is churlish in the extreme, IMHO ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunchy Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 My late grandfather in law was part of the 51st Highland Division, serving in the Black Watch. Taking sentiment aside, somebody had to hold the line to let the Army retreat. Who would you rather? Surrendering French, demoralised British troops, or the highly disciplined crack fighters in the 51st Highland Division. I treat their scrafice as testament to their courage. They knew they were facing death or a lengthy dangerous time as POWs. Yet they fought on in a disciplined manner allowing the bulk of the BEF to get home to form the nucleus of the British Army. Breaking their weapons before surrendering. No shame IMO. J I would definitely want the 51st at my back if I was in retreat I don't think many could have bettered them but to then to just leave them as the sacrificial lamb even when there is time to evacuate them is totally unforgiveable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bristolhibby Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 (edited) I would definitely want the 51st at my back if I was in retreat I don't think many could have bettered them but to then to just leave them as the sacrificial lamb even when there is time to evacuate them is totally unforgiveableIIRC it was all down to command and control. They were under French command. When it was realised it had all gone to rats and Dunkirk had fallen they tried to get out through another route. Unfortunately it didn't happen. The French who were evacuated were French who had made their way to Dunkirk. There was politics involved also. Europe was about to fall and the symbolism of having a Free French Army was important.Also, there was no simple way to extricate a division worth of men fighting a fighting rearguard against the steam roller of a German Blitzkreig. Incidentally, despite concern about the lack of recognition, my grandfather in law, joined up because of the 51st exploits. Going on to fight in the Rhienland campaign through into Germany. J Edited January 30, 2015 by Bristolhibby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunchy Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Incidentally, despite concern about the lack of recognition, my grandfather in law, joined up because of the 51st exploits. Going on to fight in the Rhienland campaign through into Germany. J The legendary highway decorators. I have a back tattoo design that I have been working on and off for several years and would love to use the HD emblem as part of it as y own personal nod to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 There's the argument that his contribution during the lead up to & early years of World War II evens out his cock ups before and after Whether it's true or not it's an argument i kinda lean to when you think what could have happened in the dark days of 1940-1942 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 I'm sure they will do the same to Tony Blair our wartime prime minster thank goodness he was the backbone of this sacred isle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 IIRC it was all down to command and control. They were under French command. When it was realised it had all gone to rats and Dunkirk had fallen they tried to get out through another route. Unfortunately it didn't happen. The French who were evacuated were French who had made their way to Dunkirk. There was politics involved also. Europe was about to fall and the symbolism of having a Free French Army was important. Also, there was no simple way to extricate a division worth of men fighting a fighting rearguard against the steam roller of a German Blitzkreig. Incidentally, despite concern about the lack of recognition, my grandfather in law, joined up because of the 51st exploits. Going on to fight in the Rhienland campaign through into Germany. J The 51st were positioned in a way that they never got enveloped , so when they retreated back and formed up with the French and everything was going to shit there was limited options left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wanday Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 There is a book "Churchill's sacrifice of the highland division". He was a menace militarily and was responsible for dodgy projects. But at least in ww2 he had generals, particularly Alanbrooke, who could stand up to him. Luckily Germany didn't have generals who could stand up to Hitler. His speeches were good. He thought a lot of himself. But the fact that he got booted out by the people around at the time says something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottie27 Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Two books on my coffee table Hms dasher and the official history of the 51st.churchill was a khunti everything he did Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auchinyell Sox Change Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 The legendary highway decorators. I have a back tattoo design that I have been working on and off for several years and would love to use the HD emblem as part of it as y own personal nod to them. just dug out 'd-day' antony beevor ; 51 div is not portrayed at all well in normandy ; post d-day villiers-bocage came as a shock to me ; this quote from a Major in Canadian Parachute battalion "three different times our division restored a situation for them. If you could have seen our lads come up to help them out on one occasion and call them yellow bastards when the Scotties threw their weapons and equipment away and fled" p187 D-Day Antony Beevor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 just dug out 'd-day' antony beevor ; 51 div is not portrayed at all well in normandy ; post d-day villiers-bocage came as a shock to me ; this quote from a Major in Canadian Parachute battalion "three different times our division restored a situation for them. If you could have seen our lads come up to help them out on one occasion and call them yellow bastards when the Scotties threw their weapons and equipment away and fled" p187 D-Day Antony Beevor these would have been distant relatives of todays no voters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robroysboy Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Great car insurance, love the nodding dog adverts over the meer cats any day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armchair Bob Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 I guess he was a warmongering imperialist who was able to recognise the same qualities in Hitler when everyone else just wanted to bury their heads in the sand. By standing against Hitler so strongly Churchill was the right man at the right time and things could have turned out much worse in 1939-41. However if the nazis weren't so patently evil then Churchill's reputation today would be much murkier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auchinyell Sox Change Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 these would have been distant relatives of todays no voters you want to try again ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redstevie007 Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 I guess he was a warmongering imperialist who was able to recognise the same qualities in Hitler when everyone else just wanted to bury their heads in the sand. By standing against Hitler so strongly Churchill was the right man at the right time and things could have turned out much worse in 1939-41. However if the nazis weren't so patently evil then Churchill's reputation today would be much murkier. Absolutely spot on. Churchill's many mistakes and shortcomings are masked by his outstanding leadership in WW2. No other politician of the time had the foresight to see what was coming or the courage to stand firm. 'Peace in our time' would have become capitulation without Churchill. A heartless, flawed man, but outstanding war-time leader. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auchinyell Sox Change Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 There is a book "Churchill's sacrifice of the highland division". He was a menace militarily and was responsible for dodgy projects. But at least in ww2 he had generals, particularly Alanbrooke, who could stand up to him. Luckily Germany didn't have generals who could stand up to Hitler. His speeches were good. He thought a lot of himself. But the fact that he got booted out by the people around at the time says something. he was involved in the deployment of the first tanks ; munitions , air corps etc dardanelles commission inquiry points to a number of communication problems , bad planning etc ; not all solely resting on churchill he signed up for active duty after being let go from the admiralty ; to re-build his reputation he did a fair stint out in the trenches serving with a Highland regiment ; black watch i think ? he looked out for his men - according to documentary i just watched but then again it may just be establishment propaganda at work again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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