Taylor1996 Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 1 minute ago, bazmidd said: For the simple reason Dundee United are a club that can allow players to continue developing. The standard at Dundee United is not as high as Rangers or Celtic so the path to the first team is easier. If Dundee United had Rangers or Celtics youth team then even more would come through as the Rangers and Celtic youth teams are better than Uniteds. The big problem is a pathway that can allow players to keep developing on the road to where the want to get to. It is nigh on impossible to expect a host of Rangers or Celtic youth players to come through the same way they come through at United, for the simple fact they are trying to displace far better players. But if these players were to reach 18 and instead of stagnating at youth level where they are already better than their peers, if they were to then be tested in Men's football for two years they may well develop further and have a better chance I don't think it's as simple as that, as the other 9 SPL clubs would be doing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazmidd Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 2 hours ago, vanderark14 said: Scottish football isn't a mess because of lower league clubs. It's in a mess because the elite clubs are greedy bastards and they've let themselves believe or in some cases they actually rely on the old firm to survive. Top clubs should be greedier! I saw somewhere that Champions League and Europa League money is given to associations based on clubs performance, that money is then filtered down the league's. To the point where even clubs like Albion Rovers are getting a couple of grand! For doing what, and for what exactly!To do up the bloody pie stand! That money could be used towards youth development in Scotland, lower League clubs just bleed the association dry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanderark14 Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 1 hour ago, bazmidd said: Top clubs should be greedier! I saw somewhere that Champions League and Europa League money is given to associations based on clubs performance, that money is then filtered down the league's. To the point where even clubs like Albion Rovers are getting a couple of grand! For doing what, and for what exactly!To do up the bloody pie stand! That money could be used towards youth development in Scotland, lower League clubs just bleed the association dry Top clubs should be grenadier, wow. That's what's killing competition in football across Europe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazmidd Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 3 hours ago, Taylor1996 said: I don't think it's as simple as that, as the other 9 SPL clubs would be doing it. You have completely missed my point. The other clubs aren't doing it for different reasons, some simply aren't interested in promoting youth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazmidd Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 2 hours ago, vanderark14 said: Top clubs should be grenadier, wow. That's what's killing competition in football across Europe. Top clubs show no greater sense of entitlement than small clubs in this country, at least top clubs are trying to become better at least they are trying to improve the standards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanderark14 Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 15 minutes ago, bazmidd said: Top clubs show no greater sense of entitlement than small clubs in this country, at least top clubs are trying to become better at least they are trying to improve the standards Which clubs are not trying to be better? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProudScot Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 55 minutes ago, vanderark14 said: Which clubs are not trying to be better? Plenty of clubs have no interest in the general standard improving & are only looking out for themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanderark14 Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 14 minutes ago, ProudScot said: Plenty of clubs have no interest in the general standard improving & are only looking out for themselves. I'm not disputing that but bazmidd says elite clubs are trying to improve the standard and lower league clubs are holding things back, this is absolute bollocks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PapofGlencoe Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 5 hours ago, bazmidd said: Top clubs should be greedier! I saw somewhere that Champions League and Europa League money is given to associations based on clubs performance, that money is then filtered down the league's. To the point where even clubs like Albion Rovers are getting a couple of grand! For doing what, and for what exactly!To do up the bloody pie stand! That money could be used towards youth development in Scotland, lower League clubs just bleed the association dry there's more to football than youth development. youth development does happen at lower league level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwhitelaw Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 20 hours ago, bazmidd said: It's not designed to add anything to the lower leagues. It's designed to aid the development of some of the best young players in the country. Like it or not the Old Firm have the best young players in the country at all respective age levels. Rangers and Celtics youth teams though reach a point where they are no longer challenged, which stalls player development, colt teams playing against senior sides would provide a new challenge at a critical stage of their development 5 hours ago, bazmidd said: For the simple reason Dundee United are a club that can allow players to continue developing. The standard at Dundee United is not as high as Rangers or Celtic so the path to the first team is easier. If Dundee United had Rangers or Celtics youth team then even more would come through as the Rangers and Celtic youth teams are better than Uniteds. The big problem is a pathway that can allow players to keep developing on the road to where the want to get to. It is nigh on impossible to expect a host of Rangers or Celtic youth players to come through the same way they come through at United, for the simple fact they are trying to displace far better players. But if these players were to reach 18 and instead of stagnating at youth level where they are already better than their peers, if they were to then be tested in Men's football for two years they may well develop further and have a better chance You've basically confirmed my point here which is essentially Rangers and Celtic have hoovered up so much of the youth talent in the country they can't actually develop them properly. Whereas a team like Dundee Utd who (like basically every other non OF team) can't afford to run a reserve team promote younger players faster who then end up making something of themselves. Can't you see the major flaw in the OF youth development? Why should the lower leagues suffer for a system that's so obviously flawed?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazmidd Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 3 hours ago, vanderark14 said: I'm not disputing that but bazmidd says elite clubs are trying to improve the standard and lower league clubs are holding things back, this is absolute bollocks. Top clubs are trying to develop elite players and lower League clubs are holding this back. The general standard of the game in Scotland would also be improved if there were two professional leagues of 12 teams each, a pyramid system below this, and all monies distributed to just these top 24 clubs with no money given to clubs below that. They don't deserve it. The only way they should get money is if they show ambition to get in the top 24 teams in Scotland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diamond Scot Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 One of the problems with Scottish football is that Scottish Prem clubs and league 2 clubs have very little in common. Theres nothing wrong with being happy with being a vibrant community club and theres nothing wrong with being a club who want to compete in Europe. When deciding on a league structure etc the 2 are often at odds though. Ive said before that I believe there should be a breakaway top leagues setup where mimimum criteria is required such as must be full time, must spend X percentage of money on youth development including youth teams from a certain age up to senior level. Home grown player rules etc. In Scotland we could probably get 2 leagues worth. No relegation from 2nd division, at least 2 up 2 down, less drop in tv and prize money from top end 2nd div to bottom end 1st. This would mean clubs wouldnt fear financial meltdown if they were relegated which in turn allows managers more freedom to play youth. The main reason clubs dont invest in youth in Scotland is that they put themselves at a significant disadvantage against the vast majority of clubs who dont. If all clubs had to invest to the same extent then this problem wouldnt exist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanderark14 Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 1 hour ago, bazmidd said: Top clubs are trying to develop elite players and lower League clubs are holding this back. The general standard of the game in Scotland would also be improved if there were two professional leagues of 12 teams each, a pyramid system below this, and all monies distributed to just these top 24 clubs with no money given to clubs below that. They don't deserve it. The only way they should get money is if they show ambition to get in the top 24 teams in Scotland Again, how are lower league holding top clubs back? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazmidd Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 14 hours ago, kwhitelaw said: You've basically confirmed my point here which is essentially Rangers and Celtic have hoovered up so much of the youth talent in the country they can't actually develop them properly. Whereas a team like Dundee Utd who (like basically every other non OF team) can't afford to run a reserve team promote younger players faster who then end up making something of themselves. Can't you see the major flaw in the OF youth development? Why should the lower leagues suffer for a system that's so obviously flawed?! Yes you are right, 100 percent correct, but Rangers and Celtic hoovering up all the best talent will never change as it is the choice of these young boys to go and join them. These young boys want to join Rangers and Celtic, what young boy wouldn't want to join the biggest and best clubs in the country. That will never change for the simple fact no one can change an individual's mind on who they want to join. We all know at 15 joining Rangers or Celtic is a way more difficult way of progressing to becoming a professional footballer, but try telling that to the Rangers or Celtic supporting 15 year old with a head full of dreams. It is natural they want to join them and there is nothing we can do about that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazmidd Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 10 hours ago, vanderark14 said: Again, how are lower league holding top clubs back? They are holding back the standard of Scottish football and the development of elite players in this country. Lower league clubs literally bring nothing to the table Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazmidd Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 10 hours ago, Diamond Scot said: One of the problems with Scottish football is that Scottish Prem clubs and league 2 clubs have very little in common. Theres nothing wrong with being happy with being a vibrant community club and theres nothing wrong with being a club who want to compete in Europe. When deciding on a league structure etc the 2 are often at odds though. Ive said before that I believe there should be a breakaway top leagues setup where mimimum criteria is required such as must be full time, must spend X percentage of money on youth development including youth teams from a certain age up to senior level. Home grown player rules etc. In Scotland we could probably get 2 leagues worth. No relegation from 2nd division, at least 2 up 2 down, less drop in tv and prize money from top end 2nd div to bottom end 1st. This would mean clubs wouldnt fear financial meltdown if they were relegated which in turn allows managers more freedom to play youth. The main reason clubs dont invest in youth in Scotland is that they put themselves at a significant disadvantage against the vast majority of clubs who dont. If all clubs had to invest to the same extent then this problem wouldnt exist. Exactly 100 percent! I have nothing against lower league clubs, nothing at all, if they want to do what they are doing. But when those clubs then have a say in the future of clubs who do want to improve the standard and quality of our game that's where I have an issue. Top two breakaway leagues is exactly what we need, but with the pyrimad in tact below that so ambitious clubs still have the chance to progress Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProudScot Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 The colt teams idea is a good one providing its open to all teams who would like to enter a Colt/B team. Fans of other teams probably don’t fully realise the profile of the Scottish game, money invested into it & the reputation of the league, whilst all not very good, are vastly due to Rangers & Celtic. The bandwagon of the old firm getting every benefit is balanced off with the league being, frankly, very lucky to have those sides in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanderark14 Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 6 minutes ago, ProudScot said: The colt teams idea is a good one providing its open to all teams who would like to enter a Colt/B team. Fans of other teams probably don’t fully realise the profile of the Scottish game, money invested into it & the reputation of the league, whilst all not very good, are vastly due to Rangers & Celtic. The bandwagon of the old firm getting every benefit is balanced off with the league being, frankly, very lucky to have those sides in it. . I really hope the majority of fans don't think we are lucky to have the Old Firm. Its that type of thinking which has strangled competition in Scotland. As has been said, Rangers and Cetlic not playing youngsters is not the fault of anyone else but rangers and celtic, it is not the job of every other club in Scotland to help them. Their greed and pursuit of beating each other is what prevents them playing their youngsters. If the rest of Scottish football buys into "colt teams are open to all" nonsense, well the game is fucked. Other clubs don't need colt teams because they are usually forced to play their youngsters due to lack of funds to buy players. Focus more and give more funding to the performance schools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanderark14 Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 37 minutes ago, bazmidd said: They are holding back the standard of Scottish football and the development of elite players in this country. Lower league clubs literally bring nothing to the table We're these clubs holding us back when Scotland was considered a good inertnational side? No they weren't Greed took over, sorry the greed of the top flight clubs took over. Buying in players to win was more important, that greed nearly killed clubs. Some lessons have been learned as some clubs do promote their youth players now but not all. Giving those clubs a colt team to promote the youth won't solve a single thing. You're hoping the clubs and in particular celtic and rangers will have the overall games interests at heart, they don't and never will because for the old firm it's about beating the other side and maintaining dominance. For most of the others it's about getting 4 old firm visits every year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazmidd Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 1 hour ago, vanderark14 said: We're these clubs holding us back when Scotland was considered a good inertnational side? No they weren't Greed took over, sorry the greed of the top flight clubs took over. Buying in players to win was more important, that greed nearly killed clubs. Some lessons have been learned as some clubs do promote their youth players now but not all. Giving those clubs a colt team to promote the youth won't solve a single thing. You're hoping the clubs and in particular celtic and rangers will have the overall games interests at heart, they don't and never will because for the old firm it's about beating the other side and maintaining dominance. For most of the others it's about getting 4 old firm visits every year. Look I agree with you on parts, I know Rangers and Celtic definitely only have their own interests at heart as well. But my point is their best interests have a knock on effect for the Scotland national teams best interests. As I have said Rangers and Celtic have the best youth prospects in the country from 15 up, there may be one or two who choose to join other clubs but the majority choose Rangers or Celtic. We aren't going to change that. These players development is stagnating by the time they reach a certain age and we are losing them, from u16 up to u19 we are littered at national age groups with old firm players, get to u21s and there is a significant drop off, because these players compared to their peers at other clubs have stagnated by not moving from youth football to first team football. They havn't made it into the first team at the Old Firm so are stuck between 3 month loans here and there or still playing youth football at an age where they should be getting tested week in week out playing the way they have been taught from 15 but under pressure against men. The here for me is I am only focusing on one thing, doing whatever it takes to improve the standard of the national team and for that I am willing to try anything and especially willing to try something that works so well in countries such as Germany, Spain, Holland and Croatia. It does work so let's try it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwhitelaw Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 4 hours ago, bazmidd said: Yes you are right, 100 percent correct, but Rangers and Celtic hoovering up all the best talent will never change as it is the choice of these young boys to go and join them. These young boys want to join Rangers and Celtic, what young boy wouldn't want to join the biggest and best clubs in the country. That will never change for the simple fact no one can change an individual's mind on who they want to join. We all know at 15 joining Rangers or Celtic is a way more difficult way of progressing to becoming a professional footballer, but try telling that to the Rangers or Celtic supporting 15 year old with a head full of dreams. It is natural they want to join them and there is nothing we can do about that 1 hour ago, bazmidd said: Look I agree with you on parts, I know Rangers and Celtic definitely only have their own interests at heart as well. But my point is their best interests have a knock on effect for the Scotland national teams best interests. As I have said Rangers and Celtic have the best youth prospects in the country from 15 up, there may be one or two who choose to join other clubs but the majority choose Rangers or Celtic. We aren't going to change that. These players development is stagnating by the time they reach a certain age and we are losing them, from u16 up to u19 we are littered at national age groups with old firm players, get to u21s and there is a significant drop off, because these players compared to their peers at other clubs have stagnated by not moving from youth football to first team football. They havn't made it into the first team at the Old Firm so are stuck between 3 month loans here and there or still playing youth football at an age where they should be getting tested week in week out playing the way they have been taught from 15 but under pressure against men. The here for me is I am only focusing on one thing, doing whatever it takes to improve the standard of the national team and for that I am willing to try anything and especially willing to try something that works so well in countries such as Germany, Spain, Holland and Croatia. It does work so let's try it Surely then the fix is with the actual youth development system and the rules within it rather than diminishing the lower leagues into essentially an OF reserve league? Can you imagine how shit league one would be knowing you only need to finish 3rd to get promoted?! Vanderark14 hit the nail on the head. Scottish football set the national team back 22 years by allowing Rangers and Celtic's greed to take over the running of the game. IMO we need a youth system that keeps under 16's out of the clutches of clubs. A system similar to the NFL in the states would be my choice. Local youth teams funded and guided by the SFA performance schools should coach young kids until 16. Let clubs youth scouts keep tabs on their development and once they reach 16 allow clubs to offer the best of these kids contracts but cap the numbers per. Or you could even go a bit further and like the NFL, the weaker clubs get first dibs of the best ones! And if 16 YO Rangers fan says no to Hamilton knowing Rangers want to offer him something, he's denied player registration until compensation is agreed to SFA etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanderark14 Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 3 hours ago, bazmidd said: Look I agree with you on parts, I know Rangers and Celtic definitely only have their own interests at heart as well. But my point is their best interests have a knock on effect for the Scotland national teams best interests. As I have said Rangers and Celtic have the best youth prospects in the country from 15 up, there may be one or two who choose to join other clubs but the majority choose Rangers or Celtic. We aren't going to change that. These players development is stagnating by the time they reach a certain age and we are losing them, from u16 up to u19 we are littered at national age groups with old firm players, get to u21s and there is a significant drop off, because these players compared to their peers at other clubs have stagnated by not moving from youth football to first team football. They havn't made it into the first team at the Old Firm so are stuck between 3 month loans here and there or still playing youth football at an age where they should be getting tested week in week out playing the way they have been taught from 15 but under pressure against men. The here for me is I am only focusing on one thing, doing whatever it takes to improve the standard of the national team and for that I am willing to try anything and especially willing to try something that works so well in countries such as Germany, Spain, Holland and Croatia. It does work so let's try it Sorry, just to be clear......... the old firm choose not to give these youngsters a chance and because of that we should give them a helping hand? I am nowhere close to being convinced this would benefit Scotland, it will definitely benefit the OF. The only argument you presented is it works in Germany, Holland and Spain so we should do it. These countries are on a different level to us, I'm sure I read Spain spend ridiculous money on coaching at all levels, are we doing this too? Leaving any of the clubs in charge of youth development is a No from me because they clearly can't be trusted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazmidd Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 6 hours ago, vanderark14 said: Sorry, just to be clear......... the old firm choose not to give these youngsters a chance and because of that we should give them a helping hand? I am nowhere close to being convinced this would benefit Scotland, it will definitely benefit the OF. The only argument you presented is it works in Germany, Holland and Spain so we should do it. These countries are on a different level to us, I'm sure I read Spain spend ridiculous money on coaching at all levels, are we doing this too? Leaving any of the clubs in charge of youth development is a No from me because they clearly can't be trusted It's not the fact they aren't choosing to pick them it's the fact they are still youngsters and aren't good enough or experienced enough yet to play in Rangers or Celtics first team. It's a hell of a difference stepping up to play in Rangers or Celtics first team than Dundee Utd or Hibs. After a couple of seasons playing men's football developing, improving and proving themselves they will have a much better chance of breaking into these teams. Of course the ideal situation would be all the best youngsters in this country played for Hibs, Dundee Utd etc and had an easier path into first teams that aren't as good as the Old Firms, but the best youngsters unfortunately pick the Old Firm. If the Old firm develop top players it clearly benefits Scotland. And no these other countries are on a different level to everyone in this country apart from the Old Firm. The Old Firm could potentially produce players for Scotland the same way Ajax do for Holland or Dinamo Zagreb do for Croatia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 While I can see both sides I am in favour. Rangers and Celtic clearly feel this will increase the number and quality of home grown players in their teams. If this is the case it will benefit the national team. I understand a high percentage of national players from Croatia, Holland etc had experience in the colts teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjd1972 Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 8 minutes ago, Michael said: While I can see both sides I am in favour. Rangers and Celtic clearly feel this will increase the number and quality of home grown players in their teams. If this is the case it will benefit the national team. I understand a high percentage of national players from Croatia, Holland etc had experience in the colts teams. One player in the Croatia 2018 squad had played ‘colt’ football and that was one of the reserve keepers. And this would only benefit the national team if they were forced to make the sides Scottish i.e 8 Scotland qualified players in starting line ups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.