ParisInAKilt Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 Brown figuratively waved 'the vow' like Chamberlain returning from Munich. The papers and media trumpeted it from the rooftops, the TV news channels spunked all over it, and Darling and Cameron couldn't open their mouths for a week without referring to it. Without Brown's intervention and his solemn promise of 'the vow/lie', the No campaign might well have crumbled in the last week. Yep. Make no mistake, this was Westminster at it's most desperate. Easy to say now it wasn't needed but something spooked them into action and I think it was more than one poll. Ultimately more undecided voters went no and the 'vow' has to take a large credit for that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haggis_trap Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 The really fucked up thing is that the option we are getting (further powers) is perhaps what most people wanted before the referendum process started ? However this option wasn't on the ballot and no one actually voted for it......What ever you think of Cameron he has played a clever tactical game. Labour are snookered and only have themselves to blame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 Most people I think wanted Devo Max. These further powers if delivered will be nowhere near that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishcumnock Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 Refuse the diminished powers that they offer , then tell the public why they are pish and what it would mean in real terms. ask for the powers to protect the nhs etc from private sell off , to be refused this will send a message out . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armchair Bob Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 Refuse the diminished powers that they offer , then tell the public why they are pish and what it would mean in real terms. ask for the powers to protect the nhs etc from private sell off , to be refused this will send a message out . This will only work if the media is onside, otherwise people will just believe what they read / see on telly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 Refuse the diminished powers that they offer , then tell the public why they are pish and what it would mean in real terms. ask for the powers to protect the nhs etc from private sell off , to be refused this will send a message out . The media and Westminster would portray that as the SNP not cooperating, not looking after the interests of Scotland etc. Best to accept them but at every opportunity explain why these powers aren't enough to make the changes needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haggis_trap Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 (edited) Most people I think wanted Devo Max. These further powers if delivered will be nowhere near that ^ Cameron can screw Labour in England and remove the Barnett formula by giving Scotland "further powers". So I think we will get further devolution - but it wont be for our benefit. It will be because it suits the Tory agenda. When CON are offering more powers than LAB it is time to smell a rat. You are 100% right : we wont ever be better off without full control of the oil revenues. Edited October 1, 2014 by Haggis_trap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 What ever you think of Cameron he has played a clever tactical game. I'm not so sure. His government essentially controlled better together behind the scenes and as a political force, couldn't have did any worse. They had a healthy lead and almost 100% of the establishment and still nearly lost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auld_Reekie Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 I'm not so sure. His government essentially controlled better together behind the scenes and as a political force, couldn't have did any worse. They had a healthy lead and almost 100% of the establishment and still nearly lost. That only works if you believe a Yes vote was a loss for the Tories. Im not convinced the right wing establishment truly cared if Scotland voted Yes. The Prime Minister and select others had to defend the United Kingdom as it was the duty of their office that demanded they fight for the Union. But on the whole, Tories stayed at home or gave up cash they can afford to throw as a token gesture at saving the Union. I don't believe for a minute they'd have been absolutely devastated at losing Scotland. The medium term electoral advantage over Labour would be an acceptable consolation prize. At the end of all this, Labour will be marginalised in England. Hard to see how the Tories couldnt win regardless of the result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomtscotland Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 Refuse the diminished powers that they offer , then tell the public why they are pish and what it would mean in real terms. ask for the powers to protect the nhs etc from private sell off , to be refused this will send a message out . Agree with that. Can't see SNP agreeing new powers unless they get as close to a federal state as could be possible - as espoused by Gordon Brown. Lesser powers will be a poisoned chalice and would see end of SNP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 Agree with that. Can't see SNP agreeing new powers unless they get as close to a federal state as could be possible - as espoused by Gordon Brown. Lesser powers will be a poisoned chalice and would see end of SNP. Does the Scottish Parliament have the power to turn them down? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mariokempes56 Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 Does the Scottish Parliament have the power to turn them down? Maybe the people do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haggis_trap Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 I'm not so sure. His government essentially controlled better together behind the scenes and as a political force, couldn't have did any worse. They had a healthy lead and almost 100% of the establishment and still nearly lost. Exactly - Cameron let Darling / Brown do the dirty work for the referendum entire campaign.... Then shafted the Labour party with his speech the very minute the result was announced. Much as I hate the Tories they played a good game now the NO vote is secured. Labour just deserve to rot for being so gullible and self interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lamia Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 Most people I think wanted Devo Max. These further powers if delivered will be nowhere near that To be honest I don't think most people have a scooby what Devo Max is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevo Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 (edited) I doubt even 5% fell for THE VOW. I've yet to meet one No voter who switched from Yes because of it... Indeed. It's important to distinguish the political panic that circulated in the last few days from the wall upon which the writing already was well before any of the concluding political shenanigans began. Some analysis done by Ashcroft polls shows that - regardless of what anyone was telling the pollsters - the vast majority of Yes and No voters had made their minds up well before all this, with the Nos in a slim lead. The Don't Knows split pretty much 50/50 in the closing days. Add in the natural conservative (small 'c') element in all such polls which always slips slightly towards the status quo and the 45/55 is explained without reference to a single syllable uttered by any politician. I wouldn't like to say which group has the bigger conceit of themselves, the politicians or the media. But it's a close-run thing. Edited October 1, 2014 by stevo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sub50 Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 To be honest I don't think most people have a scooby what Devo Max is. Who does? It is no more defined than the wooly descriptions of greater powers. We all have different views on it. Most of the 45, and a fair proportion of the 55, would share a vision of it being everything except Defence and Foreign affairs. But in reality we are about to be given three different versions of what it looks like. None of which we are going to like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sub50 Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 Does the Scottish Parliament have the power to turn them down? No. It is up to Westminster what powers it has and they can taken away or added to as WM sees fit. An early motion vote in Westminster tomorrow could make Holyrood disappear, it position is that fragile legally if not in actuality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevo Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 (edited) Does the Scottish Parliament have the power to turn them down? No. The Scottish Government cannot refuse the powers they have been given by Westminster. Once an Act is passed into law, that's it. They could apply to 'undevolve' allocated powers, even temporarily. But that would not play well with the voters I'd imagine. What they can do (as with the tax varying powers) is not to enact them. With the income tax example, a future Scottish Government could elect to track the UK Government's income tax rates, and if they were so minded, quietly forget about the policy - unless and until the voters remind them otherwise. Edited October 1, 2014 by stevo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevo Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 No. It is up to Westminster what powers it has and they can taken away or added to as WM sees fit. An early motion vote in Westminster tomorrow could make Holyrood disappear, it position is that fragile legally if not in actuality. Absolutely. Whether they were aware of it or not, on the 18th of September 55% of the electorate reasserted Westminster's role as sovereign. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exile Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 Absolutely. Whether they were aware of it or not, on the 18th of September 55% of the electorate reasserted Westminster's role as sovereign. Not according to the Rt Hon Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath? (14) Agreement to ensure the Scottish Parliament is irreversibly entrenched in the constitution and thus indissoluble by act of Westminster. http://news.stv.tv/politics/294068-full-text-of-gordon-browns-letter-setting-out-new-powers-plan/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lamia Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 Who does? It is no more defined than the wooly descriptions of greater powers. We all have different views on it. Most of the 45, and a fair proportion of the 55, would share a vision of it being everything except Defence and Foreign affairs. But in reality we are about to be given three different versions of what it looks like. None of which we are going to like. It was defined in the Scottish Parliament and none of the proposals comply with the definition. More devolution does not equal Devo Max. Under Devo Max we would no longer receive a block grant but would be in control of raising and spending our own money. Some of us do know what it is I just don't think many do Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sub50 Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 It was defined in the Scottish Parliament and none of the proposals comply with the definition. More devolution does not equal Devo Max. Under Devo Max we would no longer receive a block grant but would be in control of raising and spending our own money. Some of us do know what it is I just don't think many do I agree but he three vow signatories will claim that there is no defined thing as Devo Max. What the Scottish Parliament defined was SNP propaganda, boo hiss, and then they will offer Devo Nano and await a right royal round of applause. Bet though they find a way to drag it out to after next May. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lamia Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 I agree but he three vow signatories will claim that there is no defined thing as Devo Max. What the Scottish Parliament defined was SNP propaganda, boo hiss, They shouldn't have called it Devo Max then. That is the definition- that is what they promised. The terms Home Rule and Federalism were also mentioned. They can't wriggle their way out of that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brant grebner Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 It wis never on the table. In fact there wis never a fuckin table for it not to be on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sub50 Posted October 1, 2014 Share Posted October 1, 2014 They shouldn't have called it Devo Max then. That is the definition- that is what they promised. The terms Home Rule and Federalism were also mentioned. They can't wriggle their way out of that Again I agree but can't and shouldn't are two very different things. Our job now is to be ready for them. The can only wriggle out of it if we let them. They will leave us high and dry but we must shout it out that they are breaking promises. Home Rule and Federalism were mentioned by Brown, not by the vow so from that they will walk away. But they only get away unscathed if we quietly tut and then vote Labour, Tory or Lib Dem next May. 75,000 SNP members + the SSP and SG are a huge number and have a reach throughout the country that as yet is untested. Feet to the Fire? Heavens that is only the beginning. How will they like their union if we return a significant number of SNP MP's. Remember the Lib Dems held the balance of power with only 57 seats. 25-30 SNP MP's could well do the same. Imagine the scenario of a Labour minority government having to face an effective Tory majority in most votes, as they are English matter and the SNP chooses to abstain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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