Wc And Euro Sqaud Selections In The Past

[JECK]

Am going with cause there was a bit of a derth of talent that came through in the mid to late 90s and the guys he did pick regularly were fairly reliable and all very experienced.

Am fairly sure the midfield 3 of collins mccallister and mccall were fairly consistent through the qualifiers and that midfield was fairly settled which goes back to my first point. Also lambert had'nt moved to Dortmund by euro 96. he may well have been injured right enough. Think Craig Burley was starting to emerge by this point also.

[er yir macaroon]

The 98 squad was weak with very little creative spark. We're in a much better place now.

I seem to remember some grumbles in 86 about Dalglish's withdrawal with injury being more to do with Hansen not being in the squad. I think we'd have got through the group with Dalglish as he was still some player.

[mcnpauls]

The 98 squad was weak with very little creative spark. We're in a much better place now.

I seem to remember some grumbles in 86 about Dalglish's withdrawal with injury being more to do with Hansen not being in the squad. I think we'd have got through the group with Dalglish as he was still some player.

Think that might have happened with Dalglish, who'd had a great Indian Summer of his career. However, Fergie's decisions were frequently very poor in 86: starting Archibald and Sharp, respectively, in the matches against West Germany and Uruguay did not help. Souness was either unfit or off form, or both, at the heart of the team; Sturrock was out of his depth in his two games; Nicol was out of position; McAvennie and Cooper should both have been given genuine opportunities to do something significant; many of the players capitulated against Uruguay.

Leighton and the defence came out of that tournament well, but were asked to hold the fort for vast periods while midfields and forwards did relatively little.

[wanderer]

Did Craig Brown ever give a reason why he was so reluctant to trust in youth at times ?

Why wasn't Paul Lambert picked for Euro 96 ?

Not really. We had a pretty successful U21 team that had made the quarter finals of the European championships with a number of good players in it (Stephen Glass, McNamara, Pressley, Dailly, Crawford, Charlie Miller, Jim Hamilton, Simon Donnolly, Allan Johnson etc plus guys like Paul Bernard, who Brown always raved about as a future international, Gary Locke, David Hannah, Neil NcCann etc....) and a number of these players did go on to have successful Scotland careers (McCann, Daily, Pressely and McNamara) with the rest failing to meet the standard that was expected of them.

Lambert only really came into the picture when he moved to Dortmund, and even then it was only when Dortmund were in the finals of the Champions League.

Problem was Brown was far to loyal (far to often blind loyalty to guys like John Spencer) to a number of players and was never going to drop guys like McAllister, McStay, McCall etc.... Or would call up guys who were having the Indian summer of their careers (ie David Hopkin, Darren Jackson etc) rather than take the chance on a youth player.

[Toepoke]

neil mccann got lots of games when signing at ibrox

bit like billy dodds

I'm pretty sure Billy Dodds would've gone to France 98, but he tragically lost his sister in a car crash.

We missed having the option of his poacher's instincts in the squad...

Edited September 28, 2014 by Toepoke

[wanderer]

I'm pretty sure Billy Dodds would've gone to France 98, but he tragically lost his sister in a car crash...

Not as long as Alex Miller was around the squad.... Roy Aitken had been able to get the best out of Dodds after a slow start to his Aberdeen career, yet Miller just simply did not rate him (though Winters was a good player for Aberdeen, Dodds was still better than him).

[bh1877]

Didn't know that about dodds. I remember the Latvia? Game at tynecastle where he came on as sub and got 2 late goals. Darren Jackson was excellent in the Sweden game at ibrox, I remember him getting a standing ovation when getting substituted after putting in a great shift.

[wanderer]

Didn't know that about dodds. I remember the Latvia? Game at tynecastle where he came on as sub and got 2 late goals. Darren Jackson was excellent in the Sweden game at ibrox, I remember him getting a standing ovation when getting substituted after putting in a great shift.

Estonia. Think the Winters-Dodds deal had happened something like 2/3 weeks previous, with Dodds hitting the ground running at United and was no way Brown could over look him from that point onwards (think Miller got a touch line ban from the SFA not long after at Aberdeen and had to give up his post as Scotland assistant manager as a result)

Edited September 28, 2014 by wanderer

[ErsatzThistle]

One thing I don't quite get about Paul Lambert only starting to be a regular Scotland player when he moved to Dortmund is this, surely it was his form at Motherwell that made Dortmund buy him in his first place ? So therefore he must have been playing great for a season or two prior to his move and worthy of a place in the Scotland team ? If he'd been average Dortmund would never have bought him. Was it more a case of Craig Brown not picking Lambert because he played for a less "glamorous" club prior to his move to Dortmund ?

Will probably get pelters for this but considering he was at the end of his career, was Denis Law really deserving of a place for the 1974 World Cup based on form ? Or was it more a case of them thinking "ach, we might as well give Denis at least one World Cup appearance" ?

[wanderer]

One thing I don't quite get about Paul Lambert only starting to be a regular Scotland player when he moved to Dortmund is this, surely it was his form at Motherwell that made Dortmund buy him in his first place ? So therefore he must have been playing great for a season or two prior to his move and worthy of a place in the Scotland team ? If he'd been average Dortmund would never have bought him. Was it more a case of Craig Brown not picking Lambert because he played for a less "glamorous" club prior to his move to Dortmund ?

He signed for Dortmund after impressing in a UEFA cup tie 2/3 years earlier against them.

I do not think it was down to fact he played for Motherwell as Brown had called up Brian Martin from Motherwell for a fair number of squads, more down to Lamberts position on the park and just Brown was far to loyal to the guys who played there already.

[er yir macaroon]

He signed for Dortmund after impressing in a UEFA cup tie 2/3 years earlier against them.

I do not think it was down to fact he played for Motherwell as Brown had called up Brian Martin from Motherwell for a fair number of squads, more down to Lamberts position on the park and just Brown was far to loyal to the guys who played there already.

Lambert was more of a playmaker at St Mirren and Motherwell but wasn't as good as McStay, hence lack of early caps. Dortmund spotted his potential as a more defensive player and the rest, I suppose, is history.

[wanderer]

Lambert was more of a playmaker at St Mirren and Motherwell but wasn't as good as McStay, hence lack of early caps. Dortmund spotted his potential as a more defensive player and the rest, I suppose, is history.

There was footage from a Motherwell v Aberdeen game in 1995 that Lambert ran the show in which Sports Scene used footage of Lambert in this game in their open titles for years afterwards.

[Toepoke]

Will probably get pelters for this but considering he was at the end of his career, was Denis Law really deserving of a place for the 1974 World Cup based on form ? Or was it more a case of them thinking "ach, we might as well give Denis at least one World Cup appearance" ?

I've seen comments before saying we suffered by taking an over the hill Denis Law to the World Cup. We didd win the only game he played in though (albeit against Zaire). Not sure who else we could've taken as a prolific striker then?

[er yir macaroon]

There was footage from a Motherwell v Aberdeen game in 1995 that Lambert ran the show in which Sports Scene used footage of Lambert in this game in their open titles for years afterwards.

He was a very good player in Scotland but didn't have the raw creative talent of McStay. Dortmund got the best out of him and he really toed the line and resisted any Hollywood passes even though more than capable.

[mcnpauls]

I've seen comments before saying we suffered by taking an over the hill Denis Law to the World Cup. We didd win the only game he played in though (albeit against Zaire). Not sure who else we could've taken as a prolific striker then?

Dixie Deans was top scorer in the old first division that season, but nobody really saw him as international class. Think Law was taken partly because of his vast experience and his personality. I suspect they also thought they'd beat Zaire so convincingly that the great man would get at least one World Cup goal to end his career.

It didn't really work out like that. Arguably, Dalglish and Morgan were more the let-downs up front. Dalglish had a very quiet tournament, and Morgan did not produce the play we needed to beat Brazil or Yugoslavia to go through. Jimmy Johnstone was kept on the bench when he was the man who'd have provided the ammunition for Jordan or Lorimer to do some damage in the two big matches.

[Auchinyell Sox Change]

One thing I don't quite get about Paul Lambert only starting to be a regular Scotland player when he moved to Dortmund is this, surely it was his form at Motherwell that made Dortmund buy him in his first place ? So therefore he must have been playing great for a season or two prior to his move and worthy of a place in the Scotland team ? If he'd been average Dortmund would never have bought him. Was it more a case of Craig Brown not picking Lambert because he played for a less "glamorous" club prior to his move to Dortmund ?

Will probably get pelters for this but considering he was at the end of his career, was Denis Law really deserving of a place for the 1974 World Cup based on form ? Or was it more a case of them thinking "ach, we might as well give Denis at least one World Cup appearance" ?

dortmund played m'well in europe ; were impressed with lambert ; hence the signing - this is what i understood at the time

[Auchinyell Sox Change]

He was a very good player in Scotland but didn't have the raw creative talent of McStay. Dortmund got the best out of him and he really toed the line and resisted any Hollywood passes even though more than capable.

but McStay was well overrated and played for Celtic ; a few special goals & passes , but lot of people still waiting for his potential to be realized

[er yir macaroon]

but McStay was well overrated and played for Celtic ; a few special goals & passes , but lot of people still waiting for his potential to be realized

You're right he didn't fulfill his potential, but he could go toe to toe with any team and still keep the ball effortlessly. Nothing to go with him playing for Celtic. Stein capped him at 18 when we had a fantastic pool of players. Lambert was a terrific DM but didn't have the talent of McStay, who would probably have been world class had he gone to a club like Dortmund or Bayern.

[ErsatzThistle]

You're right he didn't fulfill his potential, but he could go toe to toe with any team and still keep the ball effortlessly. Nothing to go with him playing for Celtic. Stein capped him at 18 when we had a fantastic pool of players. Lambert was a terrific DM but didn't have the talent of McStay, who would probably have been world class had he gone to a club like Dortmund or Bayern.

Nearly went to Italy round about 1990 didn't he ?

Ferguson has said he was interested in bringing McStay to Old Trafford at around that time but Celtic wanted a huge fee for him.

[wanderer]

Nearly went to Italy round about 1990 didn't he ?

Ferguson has said he was interested in bringing McStay to Old Trafford at around that time but Celtic wanted a huge fee for him.

Souness had recommended him to Sampdoria as his replacement in 1986 and they tried to sign him almost every year up to 1990-ish.

Guy I know who has been a Celtic season ticket holder for almost a eternity was telling me 1992 was probably the closest it looked like he was going to quit Celtic.... he had not signed a new contract and on the last day of the season at Celtic Park he gave what looked like a very emotional "goodbye" (chucking his boots and shirt into the crowd) and then went to Euro 92, where he got names in team of the tournament of something, and basically every Celtic fan were resigned to him moving on that summer, but never happened and he signed a new long term deal with Celtic just before the start of the season.

McStay was a really good player, but always felt he would have went to a completely different level had he went to Italy.

[mcnpauls]

Souness had recommended him to Sampdoria as his replacement in 1986 and they tried to sign him almost every year up to 1990-ish.

Guy I know who has been a Celtic season ticket holder for almost a eternity was telling me 1992 was probably the closest it looked like he was going to quit Celtic.... he had not signed a new contract and on the last day of the season at Celtic Park he gave what looked like a very emotional "goodbye" (chucking his boots and shirt into the crowd) and then went to Euro 92, where he got names in team of the tournament of something, and basically every Celtic fan were resigned to him moving on that summer, but never happened and he signed a new long term deal with Celtic just before the start of the season.

McStay was a really good player, but always felt he would have went to a completely different level had he went to Italy.

Yes, I also recall the reports at the time of his throwing his boots into the crowd. He was an exceptional talent who badly needed to get away from the going downhill Premier League and what was fast becoming a dire Celtic team. I wonder, though, whether he was just too scared to come out of his comfort zone: as far as I recall, he was a shy, modest devoutly religious young family guy from Glasgow, and I wouldn't be surprised if the thought of moving to a foreign culture, language and climate with his wife and kids was just too daunting for him.

Foreign moves worked wonders for Mo Johnston, Eric Black and Murdo MacLeod, as well as the aforementioned Paul Lambert, yet McStay did have even more talent than any of them.

Edited September 30, 2014 by mcnpauls

[Goozay]

Problem was Brown was far to loyal (far to often blind loyalty to guys like John Spencer) to a number of players and was never going to drop guys like McAllister, McStay, McCall etc.... Or would call up guys who were having the Indian summer of their careers (ie David Hopkin, Darren Jackson etc) rather than take the chance on a youth player.

Paw Broon definitely had a reputation for preferring older players and for describing younger players as "exciting prospects" or "one for the future" even about players in their mid twenties.

Having said that he had less quality and depth in 98 to chose from than any other Scotland manager picking a squad for a finals. Plus he left out McCoist and McCall out in favour of slightly younger players.

[Auchinyell Sox Change]

Yes, I also recall the reports at the time of his throwing his boots into the crowd. He was an exceptional talent who badly needed to get away from the going downhill Premier League and what was fast becoming a dire Celtic team. I wonder, though, whether he was just too scared to come out of his comfort zone: as far as I recall, he was a shy, modest devoutly religious young family guy from Glasgow, and I wouldn't be surprised if the thought of moving to a foreign culture, language and climate with his wife and kids was just too daunting for him.

Foreign moves worked wonders for Mo Johnston, Eric Black and Murdo MacLeod, as well as the aforementioned Paul Lambert, yet McStay did have even more talent than any of them.

Black was already an incredible talent, and only a loon when he left the Dons

a back injury suffered a fir park curtailed what may have been a better careers

[wanderer]

Paw Broon definitely had a reputation for preferring older players and for describing younger players as "exciting prospects" or "one for the future" even about players in their mid twenties.

Having said that he had less quality and depth in 98 to chose from than any other Scotland manager picking a squad for a finals. Plus he left out McCoist and McCall out in favour of slightly younger players.

Remember before Euro 96 he was seriously talking about calling up a Scottish boy who was out playing in Hong Kong.

McCall seemed to completely fall out of the picture after Euro 96.... Not sure, but think the Austria away game was probably his only game of the campaign. Saying that, he moved Burley from left back to central midfield and eventually gave Lambert a chance.

Edited September 30, 2014 by wanderer

[mcnpauls]

Black was already an incredible talent, and only a loon when he left the Dons

a back injury suffered a fir park curtailed what may have been a better careers

Totally agree, Black was superb already at Aberdeen, but I thought he got even better when he went abroad. The injury was a heartbreaker - I thought he was finally going to become the man who would lead the Scotland attack, his generation's Alan Gilzean.

As a non-partisan football fanatic, I thought the late 80s early 90s could have been an amazing period for us. But Black and Ian Durrant were finished by injury. Roxburgh was a disappointment as Scotland manager. McStay stagnated at a. Hopeless Celtic. Gough abandoned the national side. Even with all the problems, we played magnificently in Euro 92.