Does This Place Not Allow Different Opinions?

[Pool Q]

For myself, I believe that just about all of the folk I know (family, friends and most colleagues) who voted No did so because they sincerely believe that it was for the best for them, their families and Scotland. I think that they were wrong, and I will continue to tell the why I believe this in the hope that some or all of them will change their views in the years to come. That, in my opinion, is the only way that we will change things so that the next time there is a referendum 45% becomes 51% or more. Hostility towards No voters will simply convince some in their views that 'nationalists' are extremists, and drive people into opposing silos.

[ParisInAKilt]

For myself, I believe that just about all of the folk I know (family, friends and most colleagues) who voted No did so because they sincerely believe that it was for the best for them, their families and Scotland. I think that they were wrong, and I will continue to tell the why I believe this in the hope that some or all of them will change their views in the years to come. That, in my opinion, is the only way that we will change things so that the next time there is a referendum 45% becomes 51% or more. Hostility towards No voters will simply convince some in their views that 'nationalists' are extremists, and drive people into opposing silos.

This

[Charlie Endell]

Precisely.

Fear over hope.

I'm alright Jack, even if approx. 1/5 of the population lives in poverty.

One in five apparently live in 'relative' poverty - this was discussed on the old board.

[runningtings]

For myself, I believe that just about all of the folk I know (family, friends and most colleagues) who voted No did so because they sincerely believe that it was for the best for them, their families and Scotland. I think that they were wrong, and I will continue to tell the why I believe this in the hope that some or all of them will change their views in the years to come. That, in my opinion, is the only way that we will change things so that the next time there is a referendum 45% becomes 51% or more. Hostility towards No voters will simply convince some in their views that 'nationalists' are extremists, and drive people into opposing silos.

Sums it up perfectly.

[Hessen]

For myself, I believe that just about all of the folk I know (family, friends and most colleagues) who voted No did so because they sincerely believe that it was for the best for them, their families and Scotland. I think that they were wrong, and I will continue to tell the why I believe this in the hope that some or all of them will change their views in the years to come. That, in my opinion, is the only way that we will change things so that the next time there is a referendum 45% becomes 51% or more. Hostility towards No voters will simply convince some in their views that 'nationalists' are extremists, and drive people into opposing silos.

It only becomes hostility on here because both sides are poles apart, which makes it hard to understand (again!) why dyed in the wool Unionists are supporting Scotland. It would be more plausible (again) if these NO voters were in the middle ground.

[the_burger]

For myself, I believe that just about all of the folk I know (family, friends and most colleagues) who voted No did so because they sincerely believe that it was for the best for them, their families and Scotland. I think that they were wrong, and I will continue to tell the why I believe this in the hope that some or all of them will change their views in the years to come. That, in my opinion, is the only way that we will change things so that the next time there is a referendum 45% becomes 51% or more. Hostility towards No voters will simply convince some in their views that 'nationalists' are extremists, and drive people into opposing silos.

Exactly.

People need to start focusing their energy constructively. 55% of people voted No, but many of them would have done so out of fear. We need to convince these people that independence is the correct way forward for Scotland. Don't push them further away by lashing out.

I was devastated on Friday and Saturday. But I've now rallied round and am thinking positively again. Participatory democracy is alive and well in Scotland. The referendum was just part of the journey.

[sbcmfc]

Very good post by Pool Q.

A lot of No voters seemed to have the line that "we weren't ready for independence" and "not yet" type attitudes, which despite not really making sense to me, does suggest they are not completely closed to the idea.

[EvilScotsman]

One in five apparently live in 'relative' poverty - this was discussed on the old board.

All poverty is relative.

[Flure]

There's quite a few different opinions on this thread.

I'm surprised that they're all being allowed.

[Parklife]

For myself, I believe that just about all of the folk I know (family, friends and most colleagues) who voted No did so because they sincerely believe that it was for the best for...... Scotland.

If that's the case then i sincerely believe the folk you know are in the minority. Most of the folk i know who voted No done so because it was best for them. They didn't give a flying feck about what is best for the country as a whole or their fellow citizens. If they did, they wouldn't have voted to continue the 4th most unequal country in the developed world.

[Flure]

We'll all know examples where this isn't the case, but I said before polling day that, in general, the talk from "No" advocates was all "me", "my", "mine" whilst "Yes" supporters spoke of "we", "our" and "ours".

[Parklife]

We'll all know examples where this isn't the case, but I said before polling day that, in general, the talk from "No" advocates was all "me", "my", "mine" whilst "Yes" supporters spoke of "we", "our" and "ours".

Definitely my experience also.

[WeeBarrysGotAnMBE]

Precisely.

Fear over hope.

I'm alright Jack, even if approx. 1/5 of the population lives in poverty.

Woah, woah, woah.

Surely if people think there are risks with Independence, they're also considering the people living in poverty.

If things were a bit turbulent post-Independence, I reckon I'd get by. I'm not sure I could say the same about those living in poverty. The figure could potentially increase.

There is also no evidence to suggest the poverty figure would improve post-Independence.

Nobody knows what our political future would've been.

To label the No-voters as just thinking for themselves is completely unreasonable.

[ShedTA]

Woah, woah, woah.

Surely if people think there are risks with Independence, they're also considering the people living in poverty.

If things were a bit turbulent post-Independence, I reckon I'd get by. I'm not sure I could say the same about those living in poverty. The figure could potentially increase.

There is also no evidence to suggest the poverty figure would improve post-Independence.

Nobody knows what our political future would've been.

To label the No-voters as just thinking for themselves is completely unreasonable.

I know several no voters. I had many pre-vote discussions which lead at times to arguments - which later I regretted. They all had valid personal reasons for voting No - none of them ever mentioned the poor or scottish people living in poverty, let alone protecting them.

and before you ask - my reasoning did. it was one of my main arguments for wanting an indy scotland.

Edited September 24, 2014 by ShedTA

[EvilScotsman]

Woah, woah, woah.

Surely if people think there are risks with Independence, they're also considering the people living in poverty.

If things were a bit turbulent post-Independence, I reckon I'd get by. I'm not sure I could say the same about those living in poverty. The figure could potentially increase.

There is also no evidence to suggest the poverty figure would improve post-Independence.

Nobody knows what our political future would've been.

To label the No-voters as just thinking for themselves is completely unreasonable.

Where's the evidence things will improve for people in poverty in the Union?

I'd suggest that given all the evidence (Tory hatred for the welfare state, Labour promising to be 'tougher on welfare than the tories', WorkFare schemes, minimum wage falling in real terms every year, continuing privatisation of the NHS by whichever is elected) then a 'No' vote didn't risk making things worse for those at the bottom, but guaranteed it. At least with a 'Yes' we'd have had a chance at improving their lot.

[faddyisyerdaddy]

A union flag was not burned in George Square. The image circulated 'proving' that it was also had a US and Israeli flag in it. A quick google revealed the original picture (before cropping) which was taken somewhere in the middle east a few years ago.

Correct . I seem to recall that those surrounding the burning flags were all dressed in beige as well. This idea that the "display" on Friday was some kind of justifiable retaliation for Yessers trying to rally support in George Square lacks any credibility. Whataboutery methinks.

[Glasgowmancity]

yes really........you calling me a liar?

I'm not calling you a liar, I just find it very surprising considering the amount of balloons, flags, stickers etc around with Yes on it along with the questions from the Germans, that you managed to be in a p[lace where it was never discussed for the full weekend.

No-one spoke with me about it!

Aye right

[Hessen]

I'm not calling you a liar, I just find it very surprising considering the amount of balloons, flags, stickers etc around with Yes on it along with the questions from the Germans, that you managed to be in a p[lace where it was never discussed for the full weekend.

Aye right

I did say there were YES flags, but I personally heard no singing. A bit like at Fulham where a group of about 10 started song about 'Union' 'ass' and 'sticking' and nobody else joined in, and that was the end of it. Yes, I was asked about it by Germans, but the subject is TA members expressing opinions is it not?

[WeeBarrysGotAnMBE]

Where's the evidence things will improve for people in poverty in the Union?

I'd suggest that given all the evidence (Tory hatred for the welfare state, Labour promising to be 'tougher on welfare than the tories', WorkFare schemes, minimum wage falling in real terms every year, continuing privatisation of the NHS by whichever is elected) then a 'No' vote didn't risk making things worse for those at the bottom, but guaranteed it. At least with a 'Yes' we'd have had a chance at improving their lot.

It all depends which campaign you believed to be fair.

The NHS was debated on many an occasion, and I'm not convinced we reached any conclusions.

It could face continuing privatisation under the UK government. It could suffer in an Independent Scotland.

I know several no voters. I had many pre-vote discussions which lead at times to arguments - which later I regretted. They all had valid personal reasons for voting No - none of them ever mentioned the poor or scottish people living in poverty, let alone protecting them.

and before you ask - my reasoning did. it was one of my main arguments for wanting an indy scotland.

As I said, there are several arguments for voting Yes or No, some personal, some not.

Some of the No voters I know are traditional Labour, including one ex-Communist. I'm not sure they'd be too happy being told they were just thinking for themselves.

Other reasons I've heard mentioned included not wanting to abandon the rest of the British working class, who'd potentially suffer.

We have no idea how our political landscape would've looked, especially with everyone fighting for power. Would we have eventually seen a resurgent Scottish Tory Party, perhaps releasing themselves from the shackles of Thatcher? UKIP also have there supporters up here, who would they align themselves with? We could argue about the SNP's politics but we'll save that for another day.

All I'm saying is there wasn't necessarily a class war.

It all depended on your initial beliefs.

[Watsoniansfan]

Because one can't still remain British regardless of indepedence?

Correct. Not in any meaningful sense.

[Watsoniansfan]

The Britain that you're talking about and obviously love, is in the process of splintering anyway.

One of the consequences of the panic of the No camp in the last fortnight is that a chain of events has now been set in place that's effectively going to end the 'concept' of Britain as some people still imagine it to be.

Oh, you'll still have the 2nd world war and the Union flag, but stronger devolution for Scotland and (much needed) self-governance for England will mean that within 5-10 years or so we're all going to be living in a federal UK where we'll effectively be a collection of independent countries 'uniting' under the name of GB.

'Britain' is already an anachronism which has decreasing validity in the modern world. It's only held together by fading memories of...something...in the past, and the fact that it's interchangeable with 'England' for many people south of the border.

Once the English actually start to discover their Englishness....something that this referendum has put in motion....then the concept of 'Britain' is dead, and the inevitable 2nd Scottish referendum within 5-10 years will have a completely different result.

You should lose your bitterness of the SNP, and start thinking in the short/medium term about which party is going to serve Scotland's needs best....a vote for anyone else is going to be a wasted vote.

Federal uk fine by me as it would kill any remote lingering prospect of Indy...disagree with you as Scots have said no to separation, new poll puts Welsh desire for Indy at 3% (record low), English comfy with Brit identity and N Ire staunchly British. Change is needed so federation cements UK.

Scot needs certainly not best served by SNP. Come Scot and UK elections I will see who has best chance of seeing off the nationalists in my constituency and vote for them.

[BigBearScot]

Federal uk fine by me as it would kill any remote lingering prospect of Indy...disagree with you as Scots have said no to separation, new poll puts Welsh desire for Indy at 3% (record low), English comfy with Brit identity and N Ire staunchly British. Change is needed so federation cements UK.

Just like how devo killed Nationalism stone dead? If England is comfy with Brit Identity then why are we hearing all this talk of English votes for English Laws?

Scot needs certainly not best served by SNP. Come Scot and UK elections I will see who has best chance of seeing off the nationalists in my constituency and vote for them.

Yep we require certainty, like all certainty we are getting in the UK at the moment with the rise of UKIP and the in/out EU referendum that is coming up.

[Hessen]

Federal uk fine by me as it would kill any remote lingering prospect of Indy...disagree with you as Scots have said no to separation, new poll puts Welsh desire for Indy at 3% (record low), English comfy with Brit identity and N Ire staunchly British. Change is needed so federation cements UK.

Scot needs certainly not best served by SNP. Come Scot and UK elections I will see who has best chance of seeing off the nationalists in my constituency and vote for them.

er...Northern Ireland staunchly British?....I dont think so...I lived there and many would disagree. Am I not right in thinking that Protestants will be in the minority soon, I heard that when I was there.

[EddardStark]

er...Northern Ireland staunchly British?....I dont think so...I lived there and many would disagree. Am I not right in thinking that Protestants will be in the minority soon, I heard that when I was there.

only 48% of RC's want unification with ROI according to recent polls. For many in NI its less about culture or religion and more about basic economic preference. Also they have more things that unite them in terms of sport and even their Irish identity which cuts across boundaries.

Edited September 25, 2014 by EddardStark

[Hessen]

only 48% of RC's want unification with ROI according to recent polls. For many in NI its less about culture or religion and more about basic economic preference. Also they have more things that unite them in terms of sport and even their Irish identity which cuts across boundaries.

I wonder how many RC's would vote for the UK? I am not sure all Protestants would be against unification either, but I guess intelligent people on both sides would be worried about the consequences of a move either way. Best leave it as it is, I have enough problems working out what to do with Scotland!