euan2020 Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 how come when its the majority in the polls are no? Unless you think TAMB is representative of the voting public. put your money where your mouth is - and bet on No victory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Saint Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 My problem is that I'm struggling to see how Brown's vision for the future of the UK is sustainable. From my perspective as an English person, his message reads as follows: "We're better together and we've done all these amazing things by working together etc., but actually we don't really trust you or agree with you on many things, and therefore we needed to have our own separate parliament so we could do things differently, and now we need even more powers for that parliament." I'm trying to get my head around how that equates to a belief that we are better together. If we're better together, why isn't he arguing for a British NHS and a British education system etc. Should he not be arguing that we should be unifying everything, instead of celebrating existing divisions and advocating more of them? I could better understand his pro-union approach if he was doing that. I'm actually not strongly for or against Scottish independence. I have mixed emotions about it because of various reasons, although nothing to do with any doubts that you'd not make a success of it - you'd be absolutely fine, I'm certain. However, if you want it, that's cool and we'll sort things out because it's your right to make that decision. I'm jsut struggling to see the way forward for the UK in the event of a No vote. As an English person I've had no vote on the future of the UK - I didn't get a vote on devolution and I don't get a vote in this latest referendum. Ok, fine, but at what point are the Scots going to be happy with life in the UK? We were told that devolution was needed to resolve the problems, and so it was introduced. We all remember the famous comment from George Robertson about how it would kill Scottish nationalism stone dead, but that obviously didn't happen! Now we're at the stage of you having a referendum and suddenly all manner of other promises are being wheeled out to try and persuade you to stay. Will you be happy once you've got those things (if you get them), or is this just going to go on and on? Because at some stage the English (and possibly the Welsh and Northern Irish) are going to get fed up of all this agitating to leave and actively support you going. What else can we do? We can't constantly live with this uncertainty and just give Scotland more and more each time it threatens to leave the UK. That's the problem Brown needs to address. Persuading enough people to vote No tomorrow is only the first step towards preserving the UK. It's what he comes up with after that which will determine whether the UK lasts or not. If he and his pro-union chums can't come up with something that both the Scots and the rUKer's are happy with, we're just going to be back here again in ten years time (or less if they renege on their promises they are currently making you, or can't deliver them for whatever reason)! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Third Lanark Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 My problem is that I'm struggling to see how Brown's vision for the future of the UK is sustainable. From my perspective as an English person, his message reads as follows: "We're better together and we've done all these amazing things by working together etc., but actually we don't really trust you or agree with you on many things, and therefore we needed to have our own separate parliament so we could do things differently, and now we need even more powers for that parliament." I'm trying to get my head around how that equates to a belief that we are better together. If we're better together, why isn't he arguing for a British NHS and a British education system etc. Should he not be arguing that we should be unifying everything, instead of celebrating existing divisions and advocating more of them? I could better understand his pro-union approach if he was doing that. I'm actually not strongly for or against Scottish independence. I have mixed emotions about it because of various reasons, although nothing to do with any doubts that you'd not make a success of it - you'd be absolutely fine, I'm certain. However, if you want it, that's cool and we'll sort things out because it's your right to make that decision. I'm jsut struggling to see the way forward for the UK in the event of a No vote. As an English person I've had no vote on the future of the UK - I didn't get a vote on devolution and I don't get a vote in this latest referendum. Ok, fine, but at what point are the Scots going to be happy with life in the UK? We were told that devolution was needed to resolve the problems, and so it was introduced. We all remember the famous comment from George Robertson about how it would kill Scottish nationalism stone dead, but that obviously didn't happen! Now we're at the stage of you having a referendum and suddenly all manner of other promises are being wheeled out to try and persuade you to stay. Will you be happy once you've got those things (if you get them), or is this just going to go on and on? Because at some stage the English (and possibly the Welsh and Northern Irish) are going to get fed up of all this agitating to leave and actively support you going. What else can we do? We can't constantly live with this uncertainty and just give Scotland more and more each time it threatens to leave the UK. That's the problem Brown needs to address. Persuading enough people to vote No tomorrow is only the first step towards preserving the UK. It's what he comes up with after that which will determine whether the UK lasts or not. If he and his pro-union chums can't come up with something that both the Scots and the rUKer's are happy with, we're just going to be back here again in ten years time (or less if they renege on their promises they are currently making you, or can't deliver them for whatever reason)! Good point there GS. IMo the worst result for all would be a large majority for No because it would look like some sort of fix and Scotland would be reduced to virtual colony status, not empowered but diminished. It could even have sinister implications for what happens when the democratic route is thwarted? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stocky Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 My problem is that I'm struggling to see how Brown's vision for the future of the UK is sustainable. From my perspective as an English person, his message reads as follows: "We're better together and we've done all these amazing things by working together etc., but actually we don't really trust you or agree with you on many things, and therefore we needed to have our own separate parliament so we could do things differently, and now we need even more powers for that parliament." I'm trying to get my head around how that equates to a belief that we are better together. If we're better together, why isn't he arguing for a British NHS and a British education system etc. Should he not be arguing that we should be unifying everything, instead of celebrating existing divisions and advocating more of them? I could better understand his pro-union approach if he was doing that. I'm actually not strongly for or against Scottish independence. I have mixed emotions about it because of various reasons, although nothing to do with any doubts that you'd not make a success of it - you'd be absolutely fine, I'm certain. However, if you want it, that's cool and we'll sort things out because it's your right to make that decision. I'm jsut struggling to see the way forward for the UK in the event of a No vote. As an English person I've had no vote on the future of the UK - I didn't get a vote on devolution and I don't get a vote in this latest referendum. Ok, fine, but at what point are the Scots going to be happy with life in the UK? We were told that devolution was needed to resolve the problems, and so it was introduced. We all remember the famous comment from George Robertson about how it would kill Scottish nationalism stone dead, but that obviously didn't happen! Now we're at the stage of you having a referendum and suddenly all manner of other promises are being wheeled out to try and persuade you to stay. Will you be happy once you've got those things (if you get them), or is this just going to go on and on? Because at some stage the English (and possibly the Welsh and Northern Irish) are going to get fed up of all this agitating to leave and actively support you going. What else can we do? We can't constantly live with this uncertainty and just give Scotland more and more each time it threatens to leave the UK. That's the problem Brown needs to address. Persuading enough people to vote No tomorrow is only the first step towards preserving the UK. It's what he comes up with after that which will determine whether the UK lasts or not. If he and his pro-union chums can't come up with something that both the Scots and the rUKer's are happy with, we're just going to be back here again in ten years time (or less if they renege on their promises they are currently making you, or can't deliver them for whatever reason)! Good Post Saint.. Devolution was not used to help Scotland or England or the UK, it was used to stop the SNP. The London parties had no interest in helping Scotland when devo was introduced......... the current proposals do very little to help Scotland, they actually hinder England and the only way out of this is to be Better Together by being one State, in everything, from fitba to NHS etc , 100% Britain and we are all just regions of this .... , or be Independent States working together doing our own thing and also helping each other out if required... I want the second as its the only fair way to proceed.. England, Quite rightly will not put up with us constantly moaning................. and wanting more... Lets GO and do it ourselves, let England do its thing as well.. the song has ended its time for a new one.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest allyc Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 I actually think if there is a yes vote he could be the man to lead Scotland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mariokempes56 Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 I actually think if there is a yes vote he could be the man to lead Scotland. p u t d o w n t h e d r i n k... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brant grebner Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 I'd rather have Harold Shipman as head of the WHO than let that duplicitous anywhere near office in Scotland. He's an inept Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishcumnock Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 Trough snorkeler ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weekevie04 Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 Seen a bit on the news there. Must have dropped a few tramadols for that enthusiasm! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest allyc Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 Tell me how... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonofoi Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 Listened to it - very divisive speech I thought. Full of 'them'& 'us'. Side point - all these clowns that are leaving when it's yes - where are you going to go?! I'm sure Carlisle & Newcastle's local authority housing stock is really going to embrace new tenants! Not!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redstevie007 Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 Sorry, but how can you be a passionate Scot and vote against our independence? I don't care if it was a great speech, he's no patriot to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 (edited) I have never seen Gordon Brown passionate my whole life. I watched his talk on Dimbelby and it is was Blairesque - lots of weird Blairesque hand movements on his key points, sterile, cold, typical Brown, it is just a job to him. Tony Blair was a much better faker than Brown. And he knew it which is why he let Tony in. Edited September 17, 2014 by thplinth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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