exile Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 After Scotland's latest woes in rugby, it got me thinking, when did Scotland (football) last really claim a scalp, in the sense of gaining something at the expense of another team, punching above their weight when something at stake? (Beating a higher rated team, or coming ahead of a higher rated team, doesn't count if we didn't ourselves gain anything. So beating France in 2007 or coming ahead of Ukraine then don't count in this sense). As far as I could remember, the last really significant scalp would be qualifying for World Cup 1990 at the expense of France, though probably qualifying for 1998 World Cup ahead of Sweden would count assuming Sweden would be the more fancied team. Looking back at the stats it seems we won our Euro 92 group squeezing out Switzerland, Romania and Bulgaria - which with hindsight is impressive, though somehow doesn't seem so earth-shattering. So instead of just the last scalp, what was the greatest? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart87 Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Drawing with Japan to lift the Kirin Cup! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bristolhibby Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 It's a pretty tall ask there. The same question could be asked to most European countries. Don't agree with your ruling France out criteria, as they definitely had somthing to play of in 2006 & 2007. And IIRC the qualification for that group went down to the last game for France as well. Seeing as we haven't even qualified for a tournament since 1997 that was the last time we possibly could have "pipped" a bigger team. And IMO that group never had a "big" team. I suppose finishing above Sweden in the WC 98 qualification including beating them at Ibrox. J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoonTheSlope Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Must be Croatia away surely. Where Croatia not 3rd in the world rankings??(for all they are worth right enough) I can't imagine we'd have been that high up on the list back at the time 11/1 IIRC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
braveheart_lynch Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 After Scotland's latest woes in rugby, it got me thinking, when did Scotland (football) last really claim a scalp, in the sense of gaining something at the expense of another team, punching above their weight when something at stake? (Beating a higher rated team, or coming ahead of a higher rated team, doesn't count if we didn't ourselves gain anything. So beating France in 2007 or coming ahead of Ukraine then don't count in this sense). As far as I could remember, the last really significant scalp would be qualifying for World Cup 1990 at the expense of France, though probably qualifying for 1998 World Cup ahead of Sweden would count assuming Sweden would be the more fancied team. Looking back at the stats it seems we won our Euro 92 group squeezing out Switzerland, Romania and Bulgaria - which with hindsight is impressive, though somehow doesn't seem so earth-shattering. So instead of just the last scalp, what was the greatest? I don't particularly understand the question. Your criteria suggests only to be when Scotland qualified for a tournament, which doesn't happen very often these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 If we use a more clear instance as in what was the last big scalp we claimed in a match that meant something then yes it would have to be that France match. I don't understand why the OP wishes to disqualify results such as those above yet wants to include instances where we finished above big teams in a group to qualify as this does not necessarily mean we beat those teams in our matches. I'd prefer we looked at head to head matches instead. That being the case our last best big win at a major tournament would probably have been beating Sweden in 1990. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exile Posted March 1, 2015 Author Share Posted March 1, 2015 OK - I was originally thinking of rugby, where, however rubbish we are now, we have at least won championships. Then I was thinking that teams even if they don't win championships can still claim a scalp by knocking a bigger team out a cup or tournament or play-off. So, cases like Croatia beating Germany in 1998, or Costa Rica advancing in 1990 or 2014, would be example of qualifying at the expense of more fancied nations. For this exercise I discount cases where Scotland failed to get out a group, even if a higher ranked team (like Ukraine... or CIS, or Sweden etc.) also did. We may have beaten France home and away but we didn't 'claim their scalp' because they qualified and we didn't. It may be a tough ask but several teams have managed it either in tournaments or qualifying. We may have done it most often in qualifying though often those were not against definitely 'higher ranked' teams. Maybe Czechosolvakia in 1977 would be another case - I'm getting hazy there. Of course if you count the home internationals then we won lots and claimed the scalp of England many times. But if so that is our main basis for appearing to punch above our weight? Until this year of course when we could do it by helping knock out Germany and/or Poland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 OK - I was originally thinking of rugby, where, however rubbish we are now, we have at least won championships. Then I was thinking that teams even if they don't win championships can still claim a scalp by knocking a bigger team out a cup or tournament or play-off. So, cases like Croatia beating Germany in 1998, or Costa Rica advancing in 1990 or 2014, would be example of qualifying at the expense of more fancied nations. For this exercise I discount cases where Scotland failed to get out a group, even if a higher ranked team (like Ukraine... or CIS, or Sweden etc.) also did. We may have beaten France home and away but we didn't 'claim their scalp' because they qualified and we didn't. It may be a tough ask but several teams have managed it either in tournaments or qualifying. We may have done it most often in qualifying though often those were not against definitely 'higher ranked' teams. Maybe Czechosolvakia in 1977 would be another case - I'm getting hazy there. Of course if you count the home internationals then we won lots and claimed the scalp of England many times. But if so that is our main basis for appearing to punch above our weight? Until this year of course when we could do it by helping knock out Germany and/or Poland. Again though - a bit odd. As we may well of got out of a group ahead of a big nation but that doesn't follow that we actually beat them at all on the pitch in the matches against those teams. This means you are narrowing the field down and eliminating noteworthy instances (beating France twice) that may hold more strength than getting out of a group where we never actually beat the big teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exile Posted March 1, 2015 Author Share Posted March 1, 2015 (edited) It may be odd but no harm in considering an alternative point of view, even if it's setting the bar higher. If we had lost to Italy twice but they had lost elsewhere so we qualified at their expense then I'd regard that as claiming their scalp and not the other way around. It would be regarded as a major achievement putting a resurgent Scotland on the map at the expense of the world champions. If you move to head to heads, then when the question becomes was the last time we knocked a bigger team out a competition in a head to head match? Edited March 1, 2015 by exile Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caledonian Craig Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 It may be odd but no harm in considering an alternative point of view, even if it's setting the bar higher. If we had lost to Italy twice but they had lost elsewhere so we qualified at their expense then I'd regard that as claiming their scalp and not the other way around. It would be regarded as a major achievement putting a resurgent Scotland on the map at the expense of the world champions. If you move to head to heads, then when the question becomes was the last time we knocked a bigger team out a competition in a head to head match? Well going by those parameters if you wish then I'd say it was Sweden in qualifying for the 1998 World Cup qualifiers. As for your final point there is no such instance as we have never reached the knock-out stages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exile Posted March 1, 2015 Author Share Posted March 1, 2015 Well going by those parameters if you wish then I'd say it was Sweden in qualifying for the 1998 World Cup qualifiers. As for your final point there is no such instance as we have never reached the knock-out stages. Or in principle, possibly in a play-off but I only remember losing play-offs, or winning against Australia and that was not exactly giant killing, at the time at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toepoke Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Must be Croatia away surely. Where Croatia not 3rd in the world rankings??(for all they are worth right enough) I can't imagine we'd have been that high up on the list back at the time 11/1 IIRC Aye, I would say beating group top seeds Croatia home and away constitutes a scalp. Their highest ranking in 2013 was #4 BTW, so you were pretty close! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
girvanTA Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Croatia was a scalp. We had so many injuries and a few players were called up that raised alot of eyebrows. Leigh griffiths debut I think? We worked harder than them, maybe rode our luck a few times. I think the most pleasing but was their manager saying we wouldnt get by the half way line... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_B81 Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Croatia away would definitely count as our last scalp imo given where we had fallen to. IMO, beating France away was our greatest scalp (in my lifetime). Not sure if Sweden would qualify under the "scalp" tag. Sure, they still had a great team that done exceptionally well in Euro 92 & USA '94 but people forget they missed out on Euro '96 whereas we qualified. Also, Austria managed to beat them that campaign as well as us so they weren't under the "world beaters" tag so to speak, would put that down more to a key victory over a major rival for qualification and nothing more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bristolhibby Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 (edited) Croatia away would definitely count as our last scalp imo given where we had fallen to. IMO, beating France away was our greatest scalp (in my lifetime). Not sure if Sweden would qualify under the "scalp" tag. Sure, they still had a great team that done exceptionally well in Euro 92 & USA '94 but people forget they missed out on Euro '96 whereas we qualified. Also, Austria managed to beat them that campaign as well as us so they weren't under the "world beaters" tag so to speak, would put that down more to a key victory over a major rival for qualification and nothing more. Like I said earlier, there was no stand out pot 1 team in that group. (IMO much like the last campaign), however as we all suspected, Belgium were the pot 1 team that never was.And obviously we ####ed ourselves v Wales and not giving HP The heave-ho at the end of the 2012 campaign after the Spain game. J Edited March 5, 2015 by Bristolhibby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robroysboy Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 Scotlands last scalp? We beat Ireland at Parkhead. A MASSIVE result! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robroysboy Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 (edited) Is ireland a scalp, yes they are because they have qualified for several tournaments, since our France 1998 appearance at a WC. I was jealous of them qualifying for Japan/ South Korea, USA but most of all Poland/ Ukraine. They didn't do much when they got there but at least they have a habit of qualifying. So they are a massive threat to our chances of progressing from our group for France 2016. The game in Dublin is HUGE! Edited March 7, 2015 by Robroysboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottincarlisle Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Lets hope this thread doesn't turn into "Gibraltars 1st scalp!!!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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