A Choice For The Left

[thplinth]

I'm sorry, but the SNP are not an option for any left leaning chap or chapette.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/snp-signs-no-strike-deal-with-scots-prison-staff-1-3697919

Thank for that. The day they become a vote for the left or the right is day they have lost their way.

I love how how you don't vote for the SNP, who are easily the most 'left' of the 4 big parties in Scotland because they are not left enough while remaining relatively silent on Labour. Yeah yeah save me your bullshit I hate labour lip service....The charade is getting tedious.

[Scunnered]

Thank for that. The day they become a vote for the left or the right is day they have lost their way.

I love how how you don't vote for the SNP, who are easily the most 'left' of the 4 big parties in Scotland because they are not left enough while remaining relatively silent on Labour. Yeah yeah save me your bullshit I hate labour lip service....The charade is getting tedious.

Alrighty then

[thplinth]

Alrighty then

Well ok, but the only thing that is a constant in the ever shifting sands of your various weird arguments is the constant and convoluted attempts to find criticism in the SNP. Who do you support? what are you actually recommending? No-one knows... It all seems like a blah blah front for slagging off the SNP.

You said a vote for the SNP is not a vote for the left.... Staggering statement.

What do you think Scots would vote for post independence then... the Tory party?

[Scunnered]

Well ok, but the only thing that is a constant in the ever shifting sands of your various weird arguments is the constant and convoluted attempts to find criticism in the SNP. Who do you support? what are you actually recommending? No-one knows... It all seems like a blah blah front for slagging off the SNP.

You said a vote for the SNP is not a vote for the left.... Staggering statement.

What do you think Scots would vote for post independence then... the Tory party?

I slag off the SNP because it's warranted my friend. For May? I'm recommending the same thing I've recommended for months. If you're from North Ayrshire and Arran then vote for Scotland's only progressive MP, if you stay outwith then vote for SNP, greens or SSP depending on your particular persuasion.

Outwith that if the SNP are to be Scotland's main party then the membership need to use their democratic voice to make their party less evil, or stop making false claims about the progressiveness of the party.

Scots would vote for the SNP post independence, of that I've no doubt.

[scotlad]

Good post Scotlad. Disagree with you about the trades union movement entirely.Has come a long way from the Tolpuddle martyrs.It is not only legislation that has neutered its down views. It always supported the establishment and did nothing to prevent privatization and the removal of equal rights for everyone else.Its membership have been involved in propelling scum like Michael Martin and Tony Blair to the top of the gravy train and i don't see much evidence of internationalist theory.Quite the opposite as far as Scotland is concerned. The trade union movement always liked to portray itself as a socialist organisation but like most socialists scratch the surface and you find a repressed right winger desperate to be part of the "upper classes".The British trade union movement is full of them.

I am glad you liked my last post, even though you seem to disagree with a significant portion of it.

As with anything, you can get good trade unionists and you can get bad ones. The bad ones will use the union as a means to propel their own career or feather their nest in some way. This phenomena is by no means limited to trade unions though. Political parties are full of such people - including the SNP.

The concept of trade unionism is a sound one. Workplaces can be a minefield and we all need someone who has our back. Many of the privatisations of nationalised industries happened post-1980s, after the TUs had had their legs swept from under them.

Make no mistake, given the chance the current government would love nothing more than to bring the unions to heel even more. In fact, it has begun already. The Tories are currently attempting to starve the civil service union, PCS, of funds by removing the 'check-off' subscription system (where union subs are automatically deducted from the employee's pay) and are encouraging staff in some departments to join new 'tamer' unions. They have tried this before with the miners, with the formation of the Union of Democratic Mineworkers as an alternative to the NUM in the 1980s. (Incidentally, the Scottish government hasn't removed check-off for their employees, which is much to their credit).

Lastly, I don't think any trade unionist would have much time for Tony Blair, if indeed they ever had. IIRC, Gordon Brown was the TU's choice for Labour leader after the death of John Smith. I think you are being slightly unfair on Michael Martin. Okay, he eventually succumbed to the Westminster junket mentality, but by all accounts he had for years prior to that been a diligent constituency MP. As a working class Scot he also had to deal with fair amount of prejudice while operating at the heart of the British establishment. Now, if you had said Ian Davidson, Jim Devine or Jimmy Hood...

But it isn't an argument about borders or no borders (which I can actually understand and have sympathy with) its about defending one set of borders v's another which I just don't get.

Absolutely. It is okay for there to be a border between France and Spain but not England and Scotland - why? It is perfectly possible for people to care about each other and help each other while at the same time managing their own affairs. Hell, in a lot of respects Scotland already is independent and it doesn't stop me caring about the well-being of ordinary people elsewhere in the UK. It was and is a specious argument.

[thplinth]

Scots would vote for the SNP post independence, of that I've no doubt.

Cop out. The SNP are a transition, not Scotland. Do you honestly believe that Scots (collectively) are more right wing than the English (collectively)?

If you do believe Scotland is more inclined to the left...then would a vote for independence not be a vote for a more left based country?

Your 'socialist' advice sounds good but it is a tory unionists wet dream.

[Scunnered]

Cop out. The SNP are a transition, not Scotland. Do you honestly believe that Scots (collectively) are more right wing than the English (collectively)?

If you do believe Scotland is more inclined to the left...then would a vote for independence not be a vote for a more left based country?

Your 'socialist' advice sounds good but it is a tory unionists wet dream.

I don't believe Scotland are more left or more right wing than England, social attitude surveys consistently conclude that there's little difference.

The SNP are not a transition, while I was out busting my cünt for a Yes vote I came on here one night to find a thread on who people would vote post Indy. The vast vast majority said SNP... It was ####in' horrifying.

[scotlad]

I'm sorry, but the SNP are not an option for any left leaning chap or chapette.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/snp-signs-no-strike-deal-with-scots-prison-staff-1-3697919

Linky no worky.

But as its the Scotsman, I imagine it reads along the lines of 'SNP sacrifice small furry animals to Satan'.

I slag off the SNP because it's warranted my friend. For May? I'm recommending the same thing I've recommended for months. If you're from North Ayrshire and Arran then vote for Scotland's only progressive MP, if you stay outwith then vote for SNP, greens or SSP depending on your particular persuasion.

Outwith that if the SNP are to be Scotland's main party then the membership need to use their democratic voice to make their party less evil, or stop making false claims about the progressiveness of the party.

Scots would vote for the SNP post independence, of that I've no doubt.

Patricia Gibson didn't follow me back on Twitter.

So I agree, she's an awful, awful woman.

The SNP are running in this election on an anti-austerity ticket (as well as a more-powers-for-Scotland ticket). At least in the short term, anyone leaning to the left and sizing up their options amongst the four main parties has to consider them as a viable option.

If, however, should they find themselves in any kind of position of power, they go back on their pledges, then they deserve to be kicked into touch.

[thplinth]

I don't believe Scotland are more left or more right wing than England, social attitude surveys consistently conclude that there's little difference.

Dear oh dear...How many labour MPs are in Scotland, how many Tory MP's are in Scotland. Are you really going to stick on that rubbish. Come on man.

[Scunnered]

Linky no worky.But as its the Scotsman, I imagine it reads along the lines of 'SNP sacrifice small furry animals to Satan'. Patricia Gibson didn't follow me back on Twitter. :(So I agree, she's an awful, awful woman.The SNP are running in this election on an anti-austerity ticket (as well as a more-powers-for-Scotland ticket). At least in the short term, anyone leaning to the left and sizing up their options amongst the four main parties has to consider them as a viable option.If, however, should they find themselves in any kind of position of power, they go back on their pledges, then they deserve to be kicked into touch.

If I knew about the animal sacrificing I'd have posted that instead . The new party of the workers, along with one of their pet trade unions removed Prison workers right to strike.

But from when do we start holding them to account? In 2011 when I was campaigning for Kenny Gibson... What a fückin,letdown that dickhead has turned out to be... The opposition published a list of 100 broken promises of the SNP, and we were able to discount a few due to knock on effects and some even with knock on effects from the previous administration that we were able to turn back around... But 75% of the list was spot on. I guess some could argue that it's a fresh start with lovely Nicola, but to many on the left the SNP will always be a party of expedience.

We've got Jonathon Shafi coming down tomorrow which should be interesting... Gibson asked for an invite... So we extended an invite to which she hasn't replied. Katy's coming in March.

Edited February 22, 2015 by Scunnered

[Scunnered]

Dear oh dear...How many labour MPs are in Scotland, how many Tory MP's are in Scotland. Are you really going to stick on that rubbish. Come on man.

How many Socialist MSP's are in Holyrood? How many Tory?

In 2016 by current opinion polls Scotland will return 4 UKIP MSP's, and 0 Socialist.

[thplinth]

WTF, in 2016?! Erm...How about now, or over say the last 60 years of history?

[joe545]

How many Socialist MSP's are in Holyrood? How many Tory?

In 2016 by current opinion polls Scotland will return 4 UKIP MSP's, and 0 Socialist.

Question was left vs right, socialist not mentioned. Answer the question!

[DonnyTJS]

Question was left vs right, socialist not mentioned. Answer the question!

Wooo ...

Define "left" and "right".

[andymac]

Wooo ...

Define "left" and "right".

Good luck with that.

[Scunnered]

Question was left vs right, socialist not mentioned. Answer the question!

Not sure if you're serious...

[Wine bibber]

If I knew about the animal sacrificing I'd have posted that instead . The new party of the workers, along with one of their pet trade unions removed Prison workers right to strike.

But from when do we start holding them to account? In 2011 when I was campaigning for Kenny Gibson... What a fückin,letdown that Seb Coe has turned out to be... The opposition published a list of 100 broken promises of the SNP, and we were able to discount a few due to knock on effects and some even with knock on effects from the previous administration that we were able to turn back around... But 75% of the list was spot on. I guess some could argue that it's a fresh start with lovely Nicola, but to many on the left the SNP will always be a party of expedience.

We've got Jonathon Shafi coming down tomorrow which should be interesting... Gibson asked for an invite... So we extended an invite to which she hasn't replied. Katy's coming in March.

Think you are missing the point.After Independence Scottish politics will fragment into a normal political system for a small European country.There will be new parties ,left right and centre. Within a few years The SNP and what remains of the Blue and Red Tories will cease to exist .I would imagine we would mirror the Scandinavian models.

Incidentally either everyone has the right to strike or no one has.The zero hours contracts that your former fascist buddies have brought in means no work no pay and nothing guaranteed for millions of workers.I would hope one of the first acts in an independent Scotland is to outlaw this shame and give everyone the same workers rights.

[scotlad]

If I knew about the animal sacrificing I'd have posted that instead . The new party of the workers, along with one of their pet trade unions removed Prison workers right to strike.

Jings, seriously? That's chuffing scary. Not impressed by that at all.

Frankly, I'm slightly surprised too. As I said earlier, the Scottish government, by all accounts, has treated its staff that bit better than the UK government is currently treating theirs (not that that's especially difficult; and even so, the SG were on strike a couple of weeks back).

Mind you, the Prison Service, along with most other other legal and law enforcement bodies, is firmly under Holyrood control and has been for some time, and there is next to no chance of that changing. On the other hand, control of the civil service in Scotland is currently split between Holyrood and Westminster. Politically, then, it perhaps suits the SG to play the nice guy for the time being. Hopefully that's just me being paranoid though.

How many Socialist MSP's are in Holyrood? How many Tory?

In 2016 by current opinion polls Scotland will return 4 UKIP MSP's, and 0 Socialist.

Could that perhaps be because the more 'marketable' SSP policies have been adopted by the SNP and the Greens?

I am sure a lot of people might be inclined to vote for the SSP again; plenty did back in 2003. Unfortunately, they are almost completely unelectable at the moment - and a lot of that is their own fault.

If ever a party needed a reboot its the SSP.

Think you are missing the point.After Independence Scottish politics will fragment into a normal political system for a small European country.There will be new parties ,left right and centre. Within a few years The SNP and what remains of the Blue and Red Tories will cease to exist .I would imagine we would mirror the Scandinavian models.

Incidentally either everyone has the right to strike or no one has.The zero hours contracts that your former fascist buddies have brought in means no work no pay and nothing guaranteed for millions of workers.I would hope one of the first acts in an independent Scotland is to outlaw this shame and give everyone the same workers rights.

Darn tootin'.

[thplinth]

We are living in a post idealogical world now but for the sake of this thread Left = Liebour & Right = Slimy Tory Bastards, Labour of course are not left (anymore) they are now shape shifting reptilian kunts much like the lib dems. Everyone left or right is locked into perpetual Thatcherism scared to change anything other than cosmetic shop window type pish.

The choice for the left? There is no choice it is dead in the water. They sold themselves out and now they are a hollow meaningless shell, a sick joke on the electorate. No wonder the polls are indicating annihilation in Scotland. I will believe that when I see it but by the 'left' here truly deserve it if it comes.

Edited February 23, 2015 by thplinth

[ParisInAKilt]

As much chance as an Indy Scotland my friend

Probably. Although I think there's more chance of building closer to a fairer society in an independent Scotland rather than as part of the UK.

[Scunnered]

Jings, seriously? That's chuffing scary. Not impressed by that at all.

Frankly, I'm slightly surprised too...

I'm sure you can imagine I wasn't surprised...

I wasn't specifically referring to SSP with regards to socialist representation.

There are no mainstream parties who would scrap Zero hour contracts in the UK or and Indy Scotland.

[thplinth]

Think of it this way 'The Left' has become disembodied, it no longer has a main political party as a 'host body' anymore. And the ghost of the left is now floating about desperately trying reincarnate itself into a new body and by the looks of it they think they can effect a reverse takeover of the SNP by essentially demanding that it be the 'New Left'. The problem is The Left is incredibly self-destructive and poisonous to any political body stupid enough to host it. There is a reason The Left died, it was diseased and rotten form the inside out. They sold everyone out and now there is no left, left (wheyhey), they killed it through their own willingness to ditch everything it stood for to gain wealth and power for themselves. Just like the little Thatcherites they have become.

[Scunnered]

Think of it this way 'The Left' has become disembodied, it no longer has a main political party as a 'host body' anymore. And the ghost of the left is now floating about desperately trying reincarnate itself into a new body and by the looks of it they think they can effect a reverse takeover of the SNP by essentially demanding that it be the 'New Left'. The problem is The Left is incredibly self-destructive and poisonous to any political body stupid enough to host it. There is a reason The Left died, it was diseased and rotten form the inside out. They sold everyone out and now there is no left, left (wheyhey), they killed it through their own willingness to ditch everything it stood for to gain wealth and power for themselves. Just like the little Thatcherites they have become.

I understand completely what you're saying. But the Nationalists wouldn't accept the half measure of devolution, they will continue to work for Independence, why should socialists accept half measures on equality and social justice?

[thplinth]

Also I think the reason the SNP is the preferred host now is because it is identifiably the most 'Left' of the main parties in Scotland. But it is still not left and nor is it right. It is not about left or right as you well know. The SNP is a specific tool designed for a specific job. You don't pick up a hammer and then ask it why is it not a screwdriver.

The fact is you are much more likely to achieve (more) social justice as an independent Scotland than as North Britain. How do I know? Well we supported the Labour party throughout it's entire existence, during its darkest times, during the height of Thatcherism and beyond... It was only when the Labour party sold everyone out did finally this start to crumble, and even then it was relucatantly. Scotland would have been a better place to live had we voted Yes because it has a more left leaning mentality than the UK as a whole. This is obvious in her long support of the labour party something that was totally taken for granted and treated with familar contempt in the end. Well now the left has no home and they have no one to blame but themsleves.

[Parklife]

Probably. Although I think there's more chance of building closer to a fairer society in an independent Scotland rather than as part of the UK.

I agree, although not as strongly as I did before the referendum.

The Referendum showed there are far more selfish khunts in Scotland than I'd ever imagined. Impoverished areas voting Yes, while affluent areas returned big No votes was soul destroying. A big feck you from the well-off to the poor.