Return of Yermaw Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 I'm super happy that Labour are going to get a kicking... Just not what by. You're swapping Neoliberals for Neoliberals. You must quote that on here or a variation of that on almost a daily basis. I find the Socialist Worker pamphlet from 1998 (which is used to preface a number of socialist leader books) gives some good ammunition and quotes that could help freshen you up a bit. I tried to debate with you once where the SNP sat on the political spectrum and how their numerous liberal policies on issues such as immigration, their EU integration and enlargement thinking, combined with their welfare policies sat with some of their harder edge economic policies. However it was clear you could only see or really understand one issue in isolation and therefore could not be seriously debated with. And here you are months later still on topic. I do admire your tenacity and simplicity. Hats off to you fella. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 You must quote that on here or a variation of that on almost a daily basis. I find the Socialist Worker pamphlet from 1998 (which is used to preface a number of socialist leader books) gives some good ammunition and quotes that could help freshen you up a bit. I tried to debate with you once where the SNP sat on the political spectrum and how their numerous liberal policies on issues such as immigration, their EU integration and enlargement thinking, combined with their welfare policies sat with some of their harder edge economic policies. However it was clear you could only see or really understand one issue in isolation and therefore could not be seriously debated with. And here you are months later still on topic. I do admire your tenacity and simplicity. Hats off to you fella. Thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 I think I explained away their stance on immigration... And much of their welfare as expedience, and I'm sure you'll agree I'm perfectly entitled to do so. As you are well aware the SNP have a history of stating a position of progressiveness and then going against it when it comes to the crunch, so what's the point in debating their welfare and immigration policy? Yes, yes I'm boring and on message but it's required. While the SNP supporters are patting each other's back and chatting about the glory of social justice, the Scottish left are out protesting SNP public service cuts. So yes, I'm irked and I'm boring Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exile Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 (edited) Ed Miliband backs Scots Labour leader Jim Murphy's plan to use mansion tax to pay for more nurses http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/ed-miliband-backs-scots-labour-5065663 Jim Murphy's mansion tax boast will hurt Labour in London, poll finds http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/jim-murphys-mansion-tax-boast-will-hurt-labour-in-london-poll-finds-10007945.html Edited January 29, 2015 by exile Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Return of Yermaw Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 I think I explained away their stance on immigration... And much of their welfare as expedience, and I'm sure you'll agree I'm perfectly entitled to do so. As you are well aware the SNP have a history of stating a position of progressiveness and then going against it when it comes to the crunch, so what's the point in debating their welfare and immigration policy? Yes, yes I'm boring and on message but it's required. While the SNP supporters are patting each other's back and chatting about the glory of social justice, the Scottish left are out protesting SNP public service cuts. So yes, I'm irked and I'm boring I seem to recall you dismissed a number of SNP policies as hypothetical ie the progressiveness of their position can only be tested if they had the power to implement that policy. That of course can applied a hundred fold to theScottish Socialists - every party, no matter how committed they are to their ideology, have to make concessions when in power or as the party evolves. Not to the extent of the Red Tories though - that is quite a seismic shift........ You clearly enjoy your Citizen Kane character you have invented yourself and as said I do applaud your tenacity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 You clearly enjoy your Citizen Kane character you have invented yourself and as said I do applaud your tenacity. You silly billy. Absolutely, of course it applies to all parties, I was merely stating that the SNP have previous, previous which goes completely unnoticed by the more rabid element of their support... Which in my experience is unhappily close to a majority. Did I ever mention they've voted down living wage bills... TWICE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lamia Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 They're offering Home Rule, an adequate substitute for unobtainable independence. What's not to like? The fact that it is a downright lie? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lamia Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 I seem to recall you dismissed a number of SNP policies as hypothetical ie the progressiveness of their position can only be tested if they had the power to implement that policy. That of course can applied a hundred fold to theScottish Socialists - I think that is the crux of the matter. It is easy to have so call radical policies when you are never going to have to implement them and make it work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Personally i think Ed Milliband is unelectable, a new Kinnock. And the Labour party across the board are rancid. The SNP should distance themselves from them because there is a putrid odour of sell out about everything they do and touch. Red tories indeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 I think that is the crux of the matter. It is easy to have so call radical policies when you are never going to have to implement them and make it work. I wouldn't say the SSP policies are particularly out there, the living wage (which the SNP support, they just vote it down), and a ban of zero hour contracts. Socialist parties don't expect to be elected... Ever. They have their policies implemented through raising public awareness and motioning the current government... As the SSP did with abolishing prescription charges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 The fact that it is a downright lie? I wasn't being serious in the slightest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auld_Reekie Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 The SNP should distance themselves from them because there is a putrid odour of sell out about everything they do and touch. This. SNP should go nowhere near Labour in a coalition. Miliband/Balls are a total carcrash and the SNP must not be sunk along with them. I have no problem supporting them on a bill by bill basis but the SNP need to tread very, very carefully. Any official coalition and the SNP will go the way of the Liberal Democrats, more so when the UK press turn all their guns on the SNP for propping them up. And even the current maneuvering has a chance of backfiring if the SNP back off from coalition at the last minute and allow themselves to be painted as letting the Tories in to power. That is far more preferrable than propping Labour up though because that can only end in disaster. I wasn't being serious in the slightest Clearly. Trouble is, you're reveling in your pantomime character so often now, people haven't a clue if you are being serious or on the windup. No bad thing I guess but it makes for mind-numbing reading and a waste of everyone's time. I'm a hundred times more interested in your genuine opinions rather than you're manufactured ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Clearly. Trouble is, you're reveling in your pantomime character so often now, people haven't a clue if you are being serious or on the windup. No bad thing I guess but it makes for mind-numbing reading and a waste of everyone's time. I'm a hundred times more interested in your genuine opinions rather than you're manufactured ones. It was dreeping in sarcasm... There's no way anyone thought it was genuine. I'm saddened by the second part of your post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 I'd struggle to vote SNP again (in the short term at least) if they joined a coalition with Labour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 I'd struggle to vote SNP again (in the short term at least) if they joined a coalition with Labour. They'll tell you it's for the greater good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 They'll tell you it's for the greater good They'd maybe believe that but I'd be very surprised if it worked out that way. Labour in their current form are part of the problem not the solution. And the SNP are far from perfect either. One of the worst parts of the no vote was not having the political shake up Scotland desperately needs. People just voting SNP like people have did for years with Labour isn't a good thing long term. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bristolhibby Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Think of the numbers the SNP could bring in if they adopted Social Democratic Values! I think of the Communists, the POUM and the Anarcho-syndicalists in the Spanish civil war. Fight the battle United to get to a position that allows Labour to take up its true place. For that to happen it has to operate as an independent party in an Independent Scotland. IMO the SNP have set their stall to get over the first hurdle (independence). That may not be to the taste of all, but there is no way we can complain when Labour has sold its soul to Middle England. J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bristolhibby Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 I'd struggle to vote SNP again (in the short term at least) if they joined a coalition with Labour. Interesting. I'd see the SNP in Westmonster as a side show, however you are right the danger is they become toxic like the Lib Dumbs. However they could work as a spoiling party, bring Scotland to the fore, which would really piss England off. Almost force Scotland out of the Union. Just thinking aloud with my last point. J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auld_Reekie Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 They'd maybe believe that but I'd be very surprised if it worked out that way. Labour in their current form are part of the problem not the solution. And the SNP are far from perfect either. One of the worst parts of the no vote was not having the political shake up Scotland desperately needs. People just voting SNP like people have did for years with Labour isn't a good thing long term. Completely agree. Tribal SNP support will eventually destroy the SNP like it is Labour. Complacency, arrogance, abuse of power... all inevitable when power is given without question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Completely agree. Tribal SNP support will eventually destroy the SNP like it is Labour. Complacency, arrogance, abuse of power... all inevitable when power is given without question. I think you're my favourite Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auld_Reekie Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 I think you're my favourite I think you're special. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 I think you're special. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toepoke Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Interesting. I'd see the SNP in Westmonster as a side show, however you are right the danger is they become toxic like the Lib Dumbs. If Labour and the SNP became "toxic" after forming a coalition, who would Scots change their votes to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 If Labour and the SNP became "toxic" after forming a coalition, who would Scots change their votes to? A fair few of my former Labour and SNP friends have joined TUSC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Personally I don't think that the SNP would become toxic in the event of a coalition, both parties are adept in opportunism and they'll spin it in such a way that after initial grumbling the majority of their members will be relatively satisfied. I haven't really dwelled upon it despite it being a very likely outcome, in the long run I reckon it would be beneficial to the SNP, and I guess for Scottish representation at WM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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