Reflections on the campaign

[BryanBlessed]

20 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

I think your clutching at straws. These things happen in football. Lots of countries benefit from slips or defensive errors. 

Every country gets lucky moments but overall we have deserved everything we got from the campaign. 

Perhaps we should look at what went against us like the Georgia and Norway penalties. Not sure either were penalties. Mctominays goal v Spain that was chalked off. 

The point I was making with the squad comparisons was that our current squad isn't that far ahead of what we have now. 

Darren Fletcher was a regular for a great man utd side. I reckon brown and Ferguson were similar level to McGregor and gilmour although I think gilmour could be better in the future. The main point is that overall our midfield options today isn't a world away from that 2008 squad. I would say our midfielders today have more goals in them which is probably the big difference between the 2.

David Weir was easily a cut above anything we have today. He was a epl regular for years and played in a decent rangers team that reached a European final. 

Not sure hickey is currently better than Hutton, I think he might eventually be better with time but Hutton was seriously gifted as a full back and he pretty much pissed his career down the pan. When he was at rangers he was brilliant and could easily have had a better career than what he had.

I would argue that Darren Fletcher was up there with robbo and Tierney and he was a long way better than hickey currently is.

If you factor in we had Naismith and mcfadden doing quite well at Everton and Maloney who was Celtics best player then that squad wasn't too far behind overall.

Clarkes the main reason we get results and what hes built is pretty impressive considering our squad limitations. 

If Clarke is the reason we get results then why were we so rubbish both leading up to and during the Euros? Even during recent matches, we were pretty poor compared to the standards we've set for ourselves. He's had major upgrades in certain areas and other players have really improved.

I don't even think the strikers you mentioned in the other post are a better selection than what we have now.

David Weir was a good CB but he only really became a regular for Scotland later in his career due to a paucity of options. And the EPL wasn't as strong when he was there. I wouldn't say he was better than Grant Hanley and I think Porteous has really come on. I don't rate Hendry that highly. That Rangers team wasn't that great. I seem to remember them being quite lucky.

 

[Orraloon]

15 hours ago, Diamond Scot said:

 

Ferguson was a brilliant midfielder who was only held back by his inability to move away from Glasgow. If Ferguson had real ambition he could have easily have played for a top 6 club.

 

Except he did move away from Glasgow.

[Diamond Scot]

33 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

Except he did move away from Glasgow.

He did and by his own words stated that he regretted it within a week. He had options to stay south with clubs like Newcastle being talked about but he just wanted to come back "home".

[Orraloon]

6 minutes ago, Diamond Scot said:

He did and by his own words stated that he regretted it within a week. He had options to stay south with clubs like Newcastle being talked about but he just wanted to come back "home".

You implied that he wasn't as good as he could have been, because he didn't leave Glasgow. He did leave Glasgow and it didn't make him a better player. This idea that a player can't be considered a great player unless he moves south is absolute nonsense. Doesn't matter whether we are talking about Ferguson, Brown or McGregor. It's just bollocks. All three have been crucial players for Scotland in different eras. None of them needed to move south to prove that. 

[Caledonian Craig]

15 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

You implied that he wasn't as good as he could have been, because he didn't leave Glasgow. He did leave Glasgow and it didn't make him a better player. This idea that a player can't be considered a great player unless he moves south is absolute nonsense. Doesn't matter whether we are talking about Ferguson, Brown or McGregor. It's just bollocks. All three have been crucial players for Scotland in different eras. None of them needed to move south to prove that. 

I do agree to a point but then how do we judge greatness? Obviously, it comes about by how revered and recognised a player they are and to do that on a global scale you need to showcase yourself either at a major international tournament or in major league and sadly they did neither. Of course amongst Scotland fans he'll be seen as a great of his generation and I don't think that is up for debate.

[mccaughey85]

4 hours ago, BryanBlessed said:

If Clarke is the reason we get results then why were we so rubbish both leading up to and during the Euros? Even during recent matches, we were pretty poor compared to the standards we've set for ourselves. He's had major upgrades in certain areas and other players have really improved.

I don't even think the strikers you mentioned in the other post are a better selection than what we have now.

David Weir was a good CB but he only really became a regular for Scotland later in his career due to a paucity of options. And the EPL wasn't as strong when he was there. I wouldn't say he was better than Grant Hanley and I think Porteous has really come on. I don't rate Hendry that highly. That Rangers team wasn't that great. I seem to remember them being quite lucky.

 

Form can dip at times. Overall the trajectory has been upwards.

We were in a tough group for the euros as well. The Czech rep game was probably the only realistic chance at a win. Croatia pulled out a big performance and England are easily a couple of levels above us.

We could have done better but that's life. Clarke has done a great job since.

Surely you can acknowledge that our results under Clarke have vastly improved. 

Theres only really been one or two upgrades in the past 4 or 5 years. As I pointed out with the match day squad against Poland in 2014 I would say we are only marginally better players wise.

Steven fletcher, Naismith, Griffith's. That's a better selection of strikers than we have now. Griffiths was a cut above shankland. Fletcher on paper was better than dykes. Naismith and Che Adams were probably similar level. 

Fletcher was scoring double digits for a relegation battling side for 4 or 5 seasons. 

David Weir would walk into our side today. That europa league final rangers side were built on a strong defence with Weir and cuellar providing that. Also the epl was still really strong when Weir played. Theres been crazy money there for the last 20 odd years and the best talent from around the globe. Fair enough in the early 90s it wasn't nearly as strong but by the early 00s the league was full of the best foreign talent and players were getting stupid money at that point. 

 

[Diamond Scot]

2 hours ago, Orraloon said:

You implied that he wasn't as good as he could have been, because he didn't leave Glasgow. He did leave Glasgow and it didn't make him a better player. This idea that a player can't be considered a great player unless he moves south is absolute nonsense. Doesn't matter whether we are talking about Ferguson, Brown or McGregor. It's just bollocks. All three have been crucial players for Scotland in different eras. None of them needed to move south to prove that. 

Ferguson was a good player, as were Brown and McGreggor however Ferguson had the potential to be great. And you become great by challenging yourself, to playing with and against better players week in week out and at the top end of European competition.

Do you think Robertson becomes the player he is now by staying at Dundee Utd or McGinn at Hibs?

Ferguson left Rangers too late, immedietly regretted it and couldnt wait to get back up the road to have his home comforts. Be a big fish in a small pond. All the best players play in the best leagues. Its just the way it is and has always been.

[mccaughey85]

16 hours ago, Diamond Scot said:

I dont think theres a massive gap between the players but I still think talent wise Ferguson was a good bit better. Especially when he broke through. Im pretty sure he won Blackburns player of the year when he was there and that was him with his heart not in it. Ultimately he is another wasted talent so I suppose if you are factoring in mentality McGinn is better.

I know its a bold claim about Hickey, he wont get anywhere near the assists but thats not really his game. This comment has to be taken in context but Robertson hasnt actually won a huge amount of trophys. He has basically won every big trophy once.

Is it stretching the imagination to say that Hickey might win a couple of prem / top 4 league titles and a champions league with a few domestic cups?

It's not stretching the imagination but he still has a long way to go. He could easily spend his career at mid table epl teams.

[BryanBlessed]

On 11/28/2023 at 2:36 PM, mccaughey85 said:

Form can dip at times. Overall the trajectory has been upwards.

We were in a tough group for the euros as well. The Czech rep game was probably the only realistic chance at a win. Croatia pulled out a big performance and England are easily a couple of levels above us.

We could have done better but that's life. Clarke has done a great job since.

Surely you can acknowledge that our results under Clarke have vastly improved. 

Theres only really been one or two upgrades in the past 4 or 5 years. As I pointed out with the match day squad against Poland in 2014 I would say we are only marginally better players wise.

Steven fletcher, Naismith, Griffith's. That's a better selection of strikers than we have now. Griffiths was a cut above shankland. Fletcher on paper was better than dykes. Naismith and Che Adams were probably similar level. 

Fletcher was scoring double digits for a relegation battling side for 4 or 5 seasons. 

David Weir would walk into our side today. That europa league final rangers side were built on a strong defence with Weir and cuellar providing that. Also the epl was still really strong when Weir played. Theres been crazy money there for the last 20 odd years and the best talent from around the globe. Fair enough in the early 90s it wasn't nearly as strong but by the early 00s the league was full of the best foreign talent and players were getting stupid money at that point. 

 

There are dips in form and there are dips in form that last two to three years that perhaps reflect what level we were actually. We were rubbish when Clarke took over and , the Serbia result aisde, we were poor in world-cup qualifiying and  and the Euros until we had a decent run of results post-Euros.

I agree that our CB's are not great. Hendry, for me, has been poor(ish) for a while and isn't doing his game any favours by playing in Saudi Arabia, though I don't blame him for taking the money. I find Hanley pretty decent though will he be the same player now? The only one who I think can really kick on is Porteous. I had high hopes for Souttar so I hope they come to fruition. Having said all that, I don't think an aging David Weir (as he was when he got most of his caps)would walk into  our side. When Man Utd won the UCL in 1999 that was exceptional. Other leagues were still stronger than the EPL and it's only really towards the end of his time at Everton that it became much stronger.

 

Fletcher aside, I don't think many of those other players were that much better than what we have now. I don't think Griffiths was any better than Shankland, for example.

 

And upgrades? People don't seem to see how important Hickey is to this team and several players have really improved or are at their peaks (McTominay, McGinn, McGregor etc.) Billy Gilmour and Lewis Ferguson aren't even usual starters for us and look how well they're doing.

[Scot1]

Firstly, the players were tremendous to not only to have achieved qualification but in the manner they  did, with 2 games to spare. 
My main takeaway, if everyone is fit and available we have a decent team. We have a lack of quality in the Centre Forward position, but that’s been the case for a while now and we have managed to get goals from McTominay and McGinn and others. 
But the main takeaway is in my opinion we can only play 1 of Gilmour or McGregor, and at this moment in time McGregor is getting the nod, and I’ve no complaints about that, he’s a quality player. But it means we need to find someone else to play alongside him in central midfield, a defensive midfielder. 
My thoughts are either Hickey or Ferguson. If you try Hickey in there, it would allow Patterson to start at right wingback. Ferguson could also play in there, although he plays higher up the pitch for Bologna, he’s played deeper before during his time in Scotland, and he’s quite a well-rounded midfielder. 
That’s the main issue Clarke has to solve, for me, before we play the Germans. If he can sort that position out, the rest of the team basically picks itself. 
The other issue is, we still need to work on our plan B. But hopefully we won’t need it during the tournament. And I think that, again, get the midfield correct in terms of balance and numbers and the rest will click into place, and a defensive midfielder is essential to that. 

[Caledonian Craig]

On 12/2/2023 at 9:12 PM, Scot1 said:

Firstly, the players were tremendous to not only to have achieved qualification but in the manner they  did, with 2 games to spare. 
My main takeaway, if everyone is fit and available we have a decent team. We have a lack of quality in the Centre Forward position, but that’s been the case for a while now and we have managed to get goals from McTominay and McGinn and others. 
But the main takeaway is in my opinion we can only play 1 of Gilmour or McGregor, and at this moment in time McGregor is getting the nod, and I’ve no complaints about that, he’s a quality player. But it means we need to find someone else to play alongside him in central midfield, a defensive midfielder. 
My thoughts are either Hickey or Ferguson. If you try Hickey in there, it would allow Patterson to start at right wingback. Ferguson could also play in there, although he plays higher up the pitch for Bologna, he’s played deeper before during his time in Scotland, and he’s quite a well-rounded midfielder. 
That’s the main issue Clarke has to solve, for me, before we play the Germans. If he can sort that position out, the rest of the team basically picks itself. 
The other issue is, we still need to work on our plan B. But hopefully we won’t need it during the tournament. And I think that, again, get the midfield correct in terms of balance and numbers and the rest will click into place, and a defensive midfielder is essential to that. 

I agree with a lot of that but Lewis Ferguson is definitely not the man for a defensive midfield role. His strength is getting forward to support the attacks not sitting in to stem attacks. I'd go as far as to say Gilmour is more suited to that role than Ferguson.

[Scot1]

On 12/5/2023 at 9:52 AM, Caledonian Craig said:

I agree with a lot of that but Lewis Ferguson is definitely not the man for a defensive midfield role. His strength is getting forward to support the attacks not sitting in to stem attacks. I'd go as far as to say Gilmour is more suited to that role than Ferguson.

I agree that his main strength is getting forward and he’s a good finisher but he has played deeper before at Aberdeen and Hamilton and he is quite a well rounded midfielder. Personally I’d like to see Hickey tried in there, I think he is obviously more instinctively defensively minded. But I honestly believe that if Clarke can find the right partnership in midfield alongside McGregor (Gilmour), we will give anyone in our group a decent game and will have a good chance to progress. Assuming everyone is fit and available. The rest of the team basically picks itself and is pretty much tried and tested. If we can add a little more bite and defensive solidity into the middle of the park, it’ll make us an even more difficult team to play against, without taking anything away from our offence. In fact it should help us offensively as it should free up players like McTominay and McGregor to be more involved going forward. If it was Hickey playing in midfield that would allow Patterson to play, who is a threat going forward. Again Hickey as a holding midfielder would be ideal to drop in and cover any space left by Patterson and Robertson when they are pushing up. 

[Scot1]

interestingly, Christie has started playing deeper for Bournemouth recently in a 4/2/3/1, as part of the midfield 2. And has apparently being playing well. On paper I think Hickey would be the best, most natural fit but I’d love to see Clarke use the friendlies before the Euros to perhaps experiment a little with regard to this position beside McGregor. 
As I said, the rest of the team is balanced and functioning as well as we could hope for, considering the limitations in certain areas of the squad, I feel this is the last piece to put in place.