Charlie Gard

[Eisegerwind]

14 minutes ago, phart said:

If the end result is death, then trying anything short of death is worthwhile.

No it's not.

[Larky Masher]

54 minutes ago, phart said:

My mate would be dead if he followed the advice of the NHS.

The simple fact is the NHS isn't expert in everything, some types of tumour or cancer are 1 in a million of cancers. No one in Britain has ever worked on some types of tumour, however in America where specialization is rampant, you have folk who only work on these type of tumours.

They told my mate if they operated they would kill him.

When he decided to go against them, they essentially took the medical equivalent of a huff. I'd have to speak to him again to get exact specifics, the NHS has been great with my gran so just don't want to put stuff that might not be 100% accurate, but loads of petty weird stuff.

He got the operation done in an American University hospital and was able to come home 2 weeks later.

 

 

Did the NHS pay for the operation?

[phart]

16 minutes ago, Larky Masher said:

Did the NHS pay for the operation?

No

[RenfrewBlue]

3 hours ago, phart said:

If the end result is death, then trying anything short of death is worthwhile.

Every process had to be done on someone who had never had it done before or by a doctor who had never done it before.

Name one medical treatment that wasn't at this stage at some point? There isn't one.

Following some of the implied logic above we'd never have any surgical procedures.

That's all well and good if the person being experimented on is capable of giving their informed consent. 

Charlie Gard cannot and it can't be left to understandably desperate parents to risk putting him in worse pain for what is left of his life. 

On 26/07/2017 at 2:21 PM, Parklife said:

 

@thplinth

[phart]

1 hour ago, RenfrewBlue said:

That's all well and good if the person being experimented on is capable of giving their informed consent. 

Charlie Gard cannot and it can't be left to understandably desperate parents to risk putting him in worse pain for what is left of his life. 

Of course it can be left to parents to make decisions about their child.

He never gave consent to any of the treatment he got from GOSH, yet no problem with that.

Again we have to apply objections equally.

[Mindimoo]

As this thread had shown, a very emotive subject.  I think focus should be on just supporting parents who have to make very difficult decisions.  

[RenfrewBlue]

1 hour ago, phart said:

Of course it can be left to parents to make decisions about their child.

He never gave consent to any of the treatment he got from GOSH, yet no problem with that.

Again we have to apply objections equally.

True, but the other treatments are tested and approved. 

And that is the key difference. 

[aaid]

I normally don't find much that I agree with Melanie Phillips on but there's little in this that I disagree with.

http://www.melaniephillips.com/cruel-ignorant-campaign/

[RenfrewBlue]

2 hours ago, aaid said:

I normally don't find much that I agree with Melanie Phillips on but there's little in this that I disagree with.

http://www.melaniephillips.com/cruel-ignorant-campaign/

Excellent article. Thanks for posting. 

[scot scotland scottish]

2 hours ago, aaid said:

I normally don't find much that I agree with Melanie Phillips on but there's little in this that I disagree with.

http://www.melaniephillips.com/cruel-ignorant-campaign/

An excerpt from said article:

That is the most terrible point of all. Charlie may have been in pain and distress. That above all was the hospital’s fear; that above all weighed particularly heavily on the judge’s mind. If that was indeed so, then every day this case has dragged on has meant that this sick baby might have been caused yet more suffering.

Terrible piece of writing.

 

[aaid]

2 minutes ago, scot scotland scottish said:

An excerpt from said article:

That is the most terrible point of all. Charlie may have been in pain and distress. That above all was the hospital’s fear; that above all weighed particularly heavily on the judge’s mind. If that was indeed so, then every day this case has dragged on has meant that this sick baby might have been caused yet more suffering.

Terrible piece of writing.

 

That's the whole point though isn't it.  Since the kid was not able to communicate or show whether he was in pain or not - because of his age and more crucially because he's brain damaged and heavily medicated then no-one could say for 100% certain whether or not he was in pain.  That includes the medical team at GOSH as well as the parents.  At least they - GOSH - are able to do tests which give indications that he is suffering.

There comes a point when parents aren't acting in the best interests of children - and in this case its completely understandable, I think they genuinely believe what they believe and that their actions are completely benign - and at that point the courts have to step in, weigh up the evidence and make what in this case is a very difficult decision.

[scot scotland scottish]

1 minute ago, aaid said:

That's the whole point though isn't it.  Since the kid was not able to communicate or show whether he was in pain or not - because of his age and more crucially because he's brain damaged and heavily medicated then no-one could say for 100% certain whether or not he was in pain.  That includes the medical team at GOSH as well as the parents.  At least they - GOSH - are able to do tests which give indications that he is suffering.

There comes a point when parents aren't acting in the best interests of children - and in this case its completely understandable, I think they genuinely believe what they believe and that their actions are completely benign - and at that point the courts have to step in, weigh up the evidence and make what in this case is a very difficult decision.

Don't think that is the case - his mother said in court on Monday that he isn't brain damaged. And even if he is brain damaged, he certainly wasn't when he first entered GOSH.

You're right though - what I highlighted is the crux of the thing. What I can't understand is, why side with killing him off when there was another option on the table. And furthermore, how can the parents' wishes / course of action be dismissed to such an extent that GOSH held him hostage for so long, that his muscles degenerated to the extent that anything other than switching off the life support became an impossibility.

[aaid]

21 minutes ago, scot scotland scottish said:

Don't think that is the case - his mother said in court on Monday that he isn't brain damaged. And even if he is brain damaged, he certainly wasn't when he first entered GOSH.

 

His mother doesn't know if he's brain damaged or not, she's not in any position to make that judgement. 

I can fully understand why she wants to think that and in her heart probably believes that.  It doesn't mean she's right though. 

[scot scotland scottish]

45 minutes ago, aaid said:

His mother doesn't know if he's brain damaged or not, Just repeating what she said in court  edit: (actually come to think of it her exact quote was "he's not brain dead") I'm pretty sure it remains unsolved as to whether he has brain damage - there was some carry on with measuring Charlie's head which bizarrely never took place (although looking at photos his head does look to have grown along with his body). Thus therefore its unfair and incorrect to assume that he is brain damaged she's not in any position to make that judgement. Agreed - I'm pretty certain that remains unsolved , so nobody at all can make judgement

I can fully understand why she wants to think that and in her heart probably believes that.  It doesn't mean she's right though. True

[scot scotland scottish]

It’s interesting that there is two distinct separate sides of the debate here. But the thing is, how can anyone say his parents should have done this, that or the other, without having ever been in the same position as them? Until such a time you or I (and I sincerely hope it never happens) experience the same as this family, who’s to say we would have done any different? I know that were it my son, I’d fight tooth and nail for him.

[scot scotland scottish]

And with that he's gone. Rest in peace Little Man.

[RenfrewBlue]

3 hours ago, scot scotland scottish said:

It’s interesting that there is two distinct separate sides of the debate here. But the thing is, how can anyone say his parents should have done this, that or the other, without having ever been in the same position as them? Until such a time you or I (and I sincerely hope it never happens) experience the same as this family, who’s to say we would have done any different? I know that were it my son, I’d fight tooth and nail for him.

 

I can understand the parents desperation. They are doing what they think is best, as any parent would.

The problem is they are unable to judge the medical condition because it's far too complex. 

As far as I can see the American Doctor is a bit of a charlatan, as he's not been to see the boy or reviewed his notes. Why not? They've been available to him. 

I'd much rather believe what GOSH have said, considering they know the patient, than what an experimental Doctor claims about his treatment that he'll make money from. 

9 hours ago, aaid said:

 

[The White Ceelo]

Rest in peace wee man and hopefully this whole sorry affair doesn't prevent anyone not having faith in GOSH with their children. I for one would not hesitate in taking any of my children to hospital because no matter what I think, these doctors are far more qualified than me to determine what's best for my child.

[they've_been_suckered]

Surely this kind of thing happens more than you think. Are other parents more accepting of the reality?

Im not making a judgement on them personally, can't imagine how they feel. Connie Yates in particular looks horrendous compared with 12 months ago. Easily lost 1-2stone and aged quite noticably. 

So sad. 

[scot scotland scottish]

5 hours ago, they've_been_suckered said:

Surely this kind of thing happens more than you think. Are other parents more accepting of the reality?

Im not making a judgement on them personally, can't imagine how they feel. Connie Yates in particular looks horrendous compared with 12 months ago. Easily lost 1-2stone and aged quite noticably. 

So sad. 

Presumably, yes - infants dieing isn't uncommon. What is different here is that there was an avenue of hope which the parents wanted to use. But, as we all know, they were denied and now the little boy has passed away.

[they've_been_suckered]

12 hours ago, scot scotland scottish said:

Presumably, yes - infants dieing isn't uncommon. What is different here is that there was an avenue of hope which the parents wanted to use. But, as we all know, they were denied and now the little boy has passed away.

False avenue of hope, it appears now.