giblet Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Came across this site discussing the Fermi paradox. Essentially based upon maths calculation, there should be billions of planets that can sustain life in the universe and there should be civilisations much more advanced than our own out there who will have harnessed limitless power. So the question is, where the hell are they? http://waitbutwhy.com/2014/05/fermi-paradox.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toepoke Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 So the question is, where the hell are they? A long way away?... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McDange Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Ooft - that's a bit heavy reading for a Friday afternoon on the TAMB. So many possibilities on that list - not sure which one I'd pick. Will get pashed and read again... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairbairn Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 My brain hurts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 I prefer his exclusion principle over his paradox, and his 1942 nuclear reactor the most It's alright, it assumes the universe is the only place to travel, for example if you become more advanced you may discover more dimensions to travel and visit, the Axiom that the universe is the only place to travel may very well be a false one especially considering the advances in physics since his death Then you have the shit-show that is the Drake equation. Which always comes up. Plus it is only speaking to the high-end probabilities of life. It's interesting to think about though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenfrewBlue Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 I prefer his exclusion principle over his paradox, and his 1942 nuclear reactor the most It's alright, it assumes the universe is the only place to travel, for example if you become more advanced you may discover more dimensions to travel and visit, the Axiom that the universe is the only place to travel may very well be a false one especially considering the advances in physics since his death Then you have the shit-show that is the Drake equation. Which always comes up. Plus it is only speaking to the high-end probabilities of life. It's interesting to think about though. The article covers the "alternate dimensions " angle in discussing the Type 2 and 3 civilisations. It's a bit disappointing that they haven't considered that it is more than likely more than one of these reasons combined for why we can't perceive others. Tbh if an advanced civilisation was watching Earth, I think they'd be quite relieved not to have to talk to us if they could possibly avoid it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 The article covers the "alternate dimensions " angle in discussing the Type 2 and 3 civilisations. It's a bit disappointing that they haven't considered that it is more than likely more than one of these reasons combined for why we can't perceive others. Tbh if an advanced civilisation was watching Earth, I think they'd be quite relieved not to have to talk to us if they could possibly avoid it. Yeah it's so anthropomorphised to be meaningless. We're using our faulty myopic view of the part to recreate the whole in our own image. Don't get me wrong i love thinking about it too, it's fascinating but we have to admit we might not have the abilities to make sense of anything really. Also how about the fact that we might not even have free-will this is becoming more of a possibility as the brain is studied more and more accurately. So intelligence sort of becomes moot in a deterministic universe, we're all just reactions with the illusion of choice-making abilities. therefore it's going to turn out how it is pre-ordained to turn out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huddersfield Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Also how about the fact that we might not even have free-will this is becoming more of a possibility as the brain is studied more and more accurately. So intelligence sort of becomes moot in a deterministic universe, we're all just reactions with the illusion of choice-making abilities. therefore it's going to turn out how it is pre-ordained to turn out. I see that as a theory not a fact. In a sense there is a danger here of going down a road correctly critiqued by critical thinkers of saying you can't prove something isn't true so conclude that it is which drops you to the level of your average conspiracy theorist. FWIW, my personal view is that evolution has led most life forms to non-determistic response triggers, so whilst many of the decisions (or perhaps more accurately the reactions to stimuli) may be based on, for want of a better phrase, pre-programming I struggle to accept that they are deterministic. Interesting debate though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 (edited) I see that as a theory not a fact. In a sense there is a danger here of going down a road correctly critiqued by critical thinkers of saying you can't prove something isn't true so conclude that it is which drops you to the level of your average conspiracy theorist. FWIW, my personal view is that evolution has led most life forms to non-determistic response triggers, so whilst many of the decisions (or perhaps more accurately the reactions to stimuli) may be based on, for want of a better phrase, pre-programming I struggle to accept that they are deterministic. Interesting debate though! "the fact that we might" Not the best English but i wasn't saying it was a fact, more it was a fact that we now have to consider it possible. EDIt: The reason being all the experiments done recently using fMRI and the results that are coming out, where it appears that the conscious choice mechanism for humans is up to 7 seconds later than we can determine the choice through brain scanning. Which means the conscious choice isn't at the beginning of the process, and scientists can predict what way you're going to choose 7 seconds before you do. Edited July 17, 2015 by phart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunchy Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Funny we were just talking about this sort of thing after watching a ufo program on channel 5. For me I think for us to think we are the only life in out universe is very arrogant the question comes of how much intelligent life there is and how advanced that intelligence is. For me I am in the nick pope camp when it comes to ufo sightings where iirc roughly 80% and mistaken sightings/natural phenomenon/tricks of the light etc 15% are along the lines of experimental aircraft etc but that 5% are as yet totally unexplained or can't be explained easily with that I then have to consider the chance that we MIGHT have been visited by intelligent life. Not saying for fact we have but only that the chance is there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenfrewBlue Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 "the fact that we might" Not the best English but i wasn't saying it was a fact, more it was a fact that we now have to consider it possible. EDIt: The reason being all the experiments done recently using fMRI and the results that are coming out, where it appears that the conscious choice mechanism for humans is up to 7 seconds later than we can determine the choice through brain scanning. Which means the conscious choice isn't at the beginning of the process, and scientists can predict what way you're going to choose 7 seconds before you do. I think we all know there's the lizard core to your brain that actually reacts before any conscious thought. Our emotional responses have taken over as the external stimuli becomes less extreme.Our brain is like a group of processors but they aren't all of the same spec. The conscious part obviously is a much poorer chip set. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biffer Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Here's some possible answers https://medium.com/@RadioOpenSource/6-mind-bending-solutions-to-the-fermi-paradox-c0f32e47a0f7 I'm fairly convinced of 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biffer Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 I also like the meat theory in here io9.com/11-of-the-weirdest-solutions-to-the-fermi-paradox-456850746 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenfrewBlue Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Here's some possible answers https://medium.com/@RadioOpenSource/6-mind-bending-solutions-to-the-fermi-paradox-c0f32e47a0f7 I'm fairly convinced of 2 It seems logical but do we actually understand enough about the universe to be able to back up the stats?For thousands of years people have believed in a God yet there's no proof whatsoever bar some books, with very dodgy provenance. What do we really know about the potential worlds around other stars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=x4wL4lbwwNU Disclaimer: Obviously, the usual caution/discernment is necessary when picking through the apparent evidence/testimony/experiences. Having said that there is an absolutely huge amount of credible witness testimony suggesting an interest in, and visitation to this planet by 'others' with apparently advanced technology. The interview above represents one of many. There are of course other theories/interpretations as to what/who these 'others' are and where they come from. Here's another. https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLiXPew3wMf6firzsoZOhXeSMOCuzNbiuF&v=KkZWHpP17Rc It's interesting and probably shouldn't come as any great surprise that there appears to be close links between many encounters with this phenomena and the development, proliferation and use of nuclear weapons. The Bentwaters case, hugely controversial but hard to ignore: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=c_ZDY23yozo I appreciate witness testimony is not going to cut it for those looking for hard scientific evidence. Richard Dolan, below, is an historian who has written some excellent books, primarily about UFOs (an acronym I dislike) and the National Security State in America and has probably the best handle on how this type of 'hard' evidence has been controlled and suppressed: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VTCaXVy3phU There is much much more to this phenomena, and not necessarily evidence that it's entirely 'extraterrestrial' in origin, but there seems to be a strong possibility that some of it is and that they've been coming here for a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 Sorry, here's the same post with links to the non-mobile YT vids. Disclaimer: Obviously, the usual caution/discernment is necessary when picking through the apparent evidence/testimony/experiences. Having said that there is an absolutely huge amount of credible witness testimony suggesting an interest in, and visitation to this planet by 'others' with apparently advanced technology. The interview above represents one of many. There are of course other theories/interpretations as to what/who these 'others' are and where they come from. Here's another: It's interesting and probably shouldn't come as any great surprise that there appears to be close links between many encounters with this phenomena and the development, proliferation and use of nuclear weapons. The Bentwaters case, hugely controversial but hard to ignore: I appreciate witness testimony is not going to cut it for those looking for hard scientific evidence. Richard Dolan, below, is an historian who has written some excellent books, primarily about UFOs (an acronym I dislike) and the National Security State in America and has probably the best handle on how this type of 'hard' evidence has been controlled and suppressed: There is much much more to this phenomena, and not necessarily evidence that it's entirely 'extraterrestrial' in origin, but there seems to be a strong possibility that some of it is and that they've been coming here for a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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