Swindon Rob Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 The protests in London yesterday were an absolute embarrassment. I'd wager that a 'not irrelevant proportion' of those morons at the protest didn't even vote last week. It just comes across as sour grapes. If Labour had won on Thursday they'd have been no protests from the defeated voters, they'd have just accepted it and moved on. Point is the Tories have been democratically elected and that's the end of it. Now if you want electoral reform well that's fine, but the rules to this election were well known in advance. Also if PR was used as the electoral format, who's to say that the votes would have been cast in the same way. Perhaps UKIP wouldn't have got so many votes, perhaps they'd have got more, we just don't know. As others have said if people want change do it the SNP way, get politically engaged and change the future, in the positive way it should be done. Not in a confrontational manner such as yesterday. Like I say, embarrassing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 Rather than coming out for a few hours, chanting the usual pish and defacing monuments why don't they actually join a political movement, engage in the debate through organised meetings and public debates, form fringe parties based on specific interests and maybe actually try to change the political system and make their politicians accountable. If one thing changed the political landscape in Scotland it was the realisation that this type of protest doesn't work - we are literally light years ahead in terms of political maturity and it defeats me that they can't learn from a clear lesson in Scotland that has brought decent people into politics and a party that has set out to serve it's people rather than have the people serve them. TT Maybe we are just better trained than them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottincarlisle Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 We're lucky in Scotland to have the SNP. Don't forget that that there are millions in England who are not right-wing, who are anti-austerity, and who are now effectively dis-enfranchised. That's exactly how I'm feeling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 There are parts of TT's post that I can agree with... But change can not be delivered through tick box politics, it requires movement based politics, and the SNP are just as guilty as standing in the way of that. Last month there was an organised protest against McDonald's for their poverty working conditions in Scotland, a few days later SNP ministers were taking part in a McDonald's litter picking publicity stunt to show how great they are. Like all mainstream parties the SNP are funded through their wealthy backers, most notable Souter, when it comes down to the choice between them and the poor, it's the poor who will lose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northernscum Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 Like all mainstream parties the SNP are funded through their wealthy backers, most notable Souter, when it comes down to the choice between them and the poor, it's the poor who will lose. Does that opinion go for the Weir's as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 Does that opinion go for the Weir's as well? No, they're supporters who happen to be very wealthy. It may be a surprise to you... But it shouldn't, the SNP are unashamedly pro corporate, even more so than Labour who you've all affectionately dubbed "Red Tories". They're not exactly shy about it. Unless you're going to suggest that the SNP are the only capitalist led party in the world that will put the poor first? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 No, they're supporters who happen to be very wealthy. It may be a surprise to you... But it shouldn't, the SNP are unashamedly pro corporate, even more so than Labour who you've all affectionately dubbed "Red Tories". They're not exactly shy about it. Unless you're going to suggest that the SNP are the only capitalist led party in the world that will put the poor first? I don't think the SNP do (or even should) put "the poor" first. But at least the SNP have "the poor" on their radar and want to do something to help them. They realise that there are votes to be won from "the poor". It would appear that they are doing a better job of that than your lot. Some senior Labour wifie down south even went on TV to declare that "Labour do NOT represent the unemployed, the disabled and poor in our society" or words to that effect. She said Labour's job was to represent hard working people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 I don't think the SNP do (or even should) put "the poor" first. But at least the SNP have "the poor" on their radar and want to do something to help them. They realise that there are votes to be won from "the poor". It would appear that they are doing a better job of that than your lot. Some senior Labour wifie down south even went on TV to declare that "Labour do NOT represent the unemployed, the disabled and poor in our society" or words to that effect. She said Labour's job was to represent hard working people. Will you please stop referring to Labour as my lot. It's irritating and makes you look one dimensional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 Will you please stop referring to Labour as my lot. It's irritating and makes you look one dimensional. Have you withdrawn your support for the Labour party? Good man. I knew you would see the light eventually. The SNP are trying to appeal to a very broad spectrum of the Scottish people. The fact that Lefties describe them as Tories and the Tories describe them as Lefties shows, to me, that they are getting the balance just about right. It's not an easy balancing act to pull off, but I think they are doing it quite well. And it would appear that the majority of the Scottish electorate agree with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 Have you withdrawn your support for the Labour party? Good man. I knew you would see the light eventually. The SNP are trying to appeal to a very broad spectrum of the Scottish people. The fact that Lefties describe them as Tories and the Tories describe them as Lefties shows, to me, that they are getting the balance just about right. It's not an easy balancing act to pull off, but I think they are doing it quite well. And it would appear that the majority of the Scottish electorate agree with me. Stop it! To be fair the Tories also refer to Labour as lefties . I don't want a balancing act, I want change, real meaningful change and the SNP won't deliver that in any shape or form whether within the Scottish Parliament or an independent Scotland. The SNP's rise reaffirms my view that there is no desire for Socialism in Scotland. Capitalism isn't working, but too few want to change it. It saddens me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishcumnock Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 You'll be safe enough when I set up the north Britain alliance party in Newcastle Affiliated to the SNP ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 (edited) There are parts of TT's post that I can agree with... But change can not be delivered through tick box politics, it requires movement based politics, and the SNP are just as guilty as standing in the way of that. Last month there was an organised protest against McDonald's for their poverty working conditions in Scotland, a few days later SNP ministers were taking part in a McDonald's litter picking publicity stunt to show how great they are. Like all mainstream parties the SNP are funded through their wealthy backers, most notable Souter, when it comes down to the choice between them and the poor, it's the poor who will lose. The SNP's wealthy backers are only Souter and the Weirs - and I think you concede that the Weirs aren't the standard "wealthy" backers, I view JK Rowling's donations to BT and Labour in the same way as the Weirs, ordinary people who have done well and are giving money to parties/causes they believe in without concern to their own personal or business interests. Fair play to them. Brian's Souter's motivations are his own but as a major businessman - with some fairly dodgy views - it's right to treat his donations with some cynicism. SLab also have some interesting donors (period since the referendum): £100000 from William Grants £123599 from Willie Haughey £102400 from Allan Massie - also gave £32900 to Jim Murphy - any idea who this is? It surely can't be the writer.. Answered my own question, its this guy. https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/aberdeen/383121/businessman-and-labour-donor-drops-suit-against-former-snp-council-leader/ Another fact of the result on Thursday is that the SNP will now get around £1million a year from Westminster in Short Money, up from about £150,000. Add in the subscriptions from the 110000 members and its probably safe to say the SNP are the most democratically funded major political party in these Islands. Edited May 10, 2015 by aaid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunchy Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 I think one of the problems is people don't know how to get politically engaged. Its easier if you have a belief In a party such as what we see with the surge in SNP support but if there is no party in your area that you agree with what do you do. How do you even go about standing as an independant in say district or town council? For most the cost alone is way beyond them to even start thinking about it. As an example for my local district council we had the choice between ukip or Tory with no info as to what they stood for in council and so folk were left with the choice of bad or bad. If I know how to go about it I would seriously consider standing for at least town council and try and make a difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShedTA Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 Stop it! To be fair the Tories also refer to Labour as lefties . I don't want a balancing act, I want change, real meaningful change and the SNP won't deliver that in any shape or form whether within the Scottish Parliament or an independent Scotland. The SNP's rise reaffirms my view that there is no desire for Socialism in Scotland. Capitalism isn't working, but too few want to change it. It saddens me Scunnered it remains to be seen if you are right. I am hopeful we do see change, but equally one thing I am certain of is that by voting labour that would have generated hee haw change for sure. You may be right about the above but for me that does not reconcile with your support of new labour in the election. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 Scunnered it remains to be seen if you are right. I am hopeful we do see change, but equally one thing I am certain of is that by voting labour that would have generated hee haw change for sure. You may be right about the above but for me that does not reconcile with your support of new labour in the election. I didn't support Labour, or New Labour in the election. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShedTA Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 I didn't support Labour, or New Labour in the election. Apologies scunnered I thought you voted for a labour candidate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 Apologies scunnered I thought you voted for a labour candidate? I did indeed. I endorsed the candidate, not the party. I couldn't have made that clearer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menschlich Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 Rioting idiots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunchy Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 The trouble with fptp is even if you endorse the person that endorsement carrys on to endorsement for the party. Yes you have been very very vocal in your condemnation of the labour party and your endorsement of Katy (which I agree with to an extent) but unfortunately that support for Katy is also a support for the party Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tartanhibee Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 I don't know if the SNP will be able to change anything at WM but a least they now have a chance to try and stand up for Scotland. It may not happen but we have voted labour for years to no avail. I welcome the change and hope that it does. The socialist issue unfortunately there are to many selfish people out there looking after themselves rather than wanting to help others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 The trouble with fptp is even if you endorse the person that endorsement carrys on to endorsement for the party. Yes you have been very very vocal in your condemnation of the labour party and your endorsement of Katy (which I agree with to an extent) but unfortunately that support for Katy is also a support for the party PR is even worse in that respect. About the only good thing that FPTP has going is the direct link between the candidate and the constituency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunchy Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 PR is even worse in that respect. About the only good thing that FPTP has going is the direct link between the candidate and the constituency. Me bad should have quote scunnered post when I posted that. Yes totally agree with you on that point but was trying to point out the direct link between party and candidate in fptp systems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 The trouble with fptp is even if you endorse the person that endorsement carrys on to endorsement for the party. Yes you have been very very vocal in your condemnation of the labour party and your endorsement of Katy (which I agree with to an extent) but unfortunately that support for Katy is also a support for the party I don't accept that. My vote was for the candidate, who would have fought for a living wage as she always has, nuclear disarmament as she always has, and for the benefit of the working class as she always has. These aren't Labour positions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northernscum Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 I don't accept that. My vote was for the candidate, who would have fought for a living wage as she always has, nuclear disarmament as she always has, and for the benefit of the working class as she always has. These aren't Labour positions. So what is she going to do at the Holyrood election? Is she going to stand as an independent? Doesn't seem to be much point remaining attached to such a toxic brand as Labour in Scotland for the forseeable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 So what is she going to do at the Holyrood election? Is she going to stand as an independent? Doesn't seem to be much point remaining attached to such a toxic brand as Labour in Scotland for the forseeable. She's taking some time off to spend with her family, then she intends to continue her work with the Socialist Campaign Group. She doesn't intend to stand for Holyrood at this time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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