Would It Be Possible......

[Larky Masher]

.....to have a non-partisan, objective discussion about the state of Scottish football on here?

[Parklife]

.....to have a non-partisan, objective discussion about the state of Scottish football on here?

Of course.

First you have to not act like a jaunkerr though

[northernscum]

.....to have a non-partisan, objective discussion about the state of Scottish football on here?

Fire on, give us a starter for 10.....

I have no club loyalties so i would be happy to give my neutral viewpoint.

[ShedTA]

Happy to larky but you won't get unanimous agreement that all scottish clubs are finished if that's what you are after.

[ShedTA]

I have already agreed with you that the quality of football has dropped, that crowds in some cases are down and that financially many clubs have and still are struggling. But there is some good news out there if you care to see it.

[Maq]

.....to have a non-partisan, objective discussion about the state of Scottish football on here?

No.

[jock strap]

I have already agreed with you that the quality of football has dropped, that crowds in some cases are down and that financially many clubs have and still are struggling. But there is some good news out there if you care to see it.

He can't though.

Scottish football is nothing apparently without TR.

[Chief]

Being as impartial as I can, I think it's clear to see the overall quality has dropped dramatically in the last 10 years, but it's probably more competitive now...kind of a catch 22 I suppose.

[sbcmfc]

There are a lot of things wrong with Scottish football.

The people running it being the starting point, but the level just below that is a large part of that too. The lunatics run the asylum, in that the clubs have ultimate control, which results in the continued short term solutions, and the self preservation that personifies our game.

At a club level, well it's the same people in charge. While I fully understand that the free spending days of the 90s were largely financed by debt, and teams like Motherwell couldn't afford to pay reported £7-8k per week to players. Year after year, playing budgets are cut, squad size reduced, the quality of player coming to Scottish football is going down as we pay less and less. Yet the price continues to go up.

Not to mention the fact that fans, particularly visiting fans are treated like shit by the people that run the game, scheduling, policing, facilities, pricing.... It's no wonder crowds are dropping at most grounds.

Their are some positive signs too. Dundee United do seem to be bringing through exciting young players, and getting paid for them, which is good for them, other clubs that benefit, the national team and provided they do well, improve the reputation of Scottish players/football. (Which could result in more players moving down south for better fees, rather than being seen as an inexpensive gamble.)

Aberdeens recent revival is, as much as I hate to admit it, probably a good thing. Along with hearts and hibs, they're the only team that can attract a 5 figure crowd regularly if they're playing well. Their cup win seems to have revitalised their support, and got thousands of folk who weren't going to games excited about football again and attending games.

That's enough for now, but that's a starter for you.

[jock strap]

There are a lot of things wrong with Scottish football.

The people running it being the starting point, but the level just below that is a large part of that too. The lunatics run the asylum, in that the clubs have ultimate control, which results in the continued short term solutions, and the self preservation that personifies our game.

At a club level, well it's the same people in charge. While I fully understand that the free spending days of the 90s were largely financed by debt, and teams like Motherwell couldn't afford to pay reported £7-8k per week to players. Year after year, playing budgets are cut, squad size reduced, the quality of player coming to Scottish football is going down as we pay less and less. Yet the price continues to go up.

Not to mention the fact that fans, particularly visiting fans are treated like shit by the people that run the game, scheduling, policing, facilities, pricing.... It's no wonder crowds are dropping at most grounds.

Their are some positive signs too. Dundee United do seem to be bringing through exciting young players, and getting paid for them, which is good for them, other clubs that benefit, the national team and provided they do well, improve the reputation of Scottish players/football. (Which could result in more players moving down south for better fees, rather than being seen as an inexpensive gamble.)

Aberdeens recent revival is, as much as I hate to admit it, probably a good thing. Along with hearts and hibs, they're the only team that can attract a 5 figure crowd regularly if they're playing well. Their cup win seems to have revitalised their support, and got thousands of folk who weren't going to games excited about football again and attending games.

That's enough for now, but that's a starter for you.

Good post and agree on all points.

[Larky Masher]

Three basic points, two of them linked, which I think indirectly contribute (though not just in Scotland) to the decline are:

1. Admission prices are way too high.

2. Admission prices are way too high because players' wages are too high. I think it's nonsense to justify (relatively) high wages with the old "short career" excuse, it might be a relatively short career but it isn't a full-time job so players have lots of time to prepare themselves for life after football the fact that most are too lazy to do so should be their problem and not the games.

3. I have never been to the cinema, a concert, a restaurant or a festival and been treated like a potential criminal, so why do football supporters have to accept it.

A point that I think contributes directly to the quality of the game is the closed shop there seems to be with respect to management and coaching where bad practice is perpetuated, clubs need to look beyond ex-pros for coaching staff and managers and bring some fresh thinking into the game.

[Flure]

A point that I think contributes directly to the quality of the game is the closed shop there seems to be with respect to management and coaching where bad practice is perpetuated, clubs need to look beyond ex-pros for coaching staff and managers and bring some fresh thinking into the game.

The system of getting the qualifications now necessary before you can ply your trade as a coach perpetuates this.

[Larky Masher]

The system of getting the qualifications now necessary before you can ply your trade as a coach perpetuates this.

Do you need to be an ex-pro to get a pro-licence?

[Flure]

Do you need to be an ex-pro to get a pro-licence?

No, but I think the route for the majority of people who take the course is player -> coach.

There doesn't seem to be a lot of people doing it otherwise - or, if there are, they're not getting the jobs. Yet.

[OLAS]

I doubt many teams who struggle to break even, given the choice between a regular punter and an ex-pro, would contemplate hiring the regular punter even if they had the same or better qualifications.

The ex-pro has the hands-on experience of being coached and being part of the dressing room and match-day squad. This is something the regular punter can't buy.

It would be an interesting experiment to see how both types of coach fare with the same team.

[Larky Masher]

Does anyone know how much a club is paid when a live game is shown?

[Larky Masher]

I doubt many teams who struggle to break even, given the choice between a regular punter and an ex-pro, would contemplate hiring the regular punter even if they had the same or better qualifications.

The ex-pro has the hands-on experience of being coached and being part of the dressing room and match-day squad. This is something the regular punter can't buy.

It would be an interesting experiment to see how both types of coach fare with the same team.

In my opinion they could at least try fitness coaches as a starting point.

[ShedTA]

Three basic points, two of them linked, which I think indirectly contribute (though not just in Scotland) to the decline are:

1. Admission prices are way too high.

2. Admission prices are way too high because players' wages are too high. I think it's nonsense to justify (relatively) high wages with the old "short career" excuse, it might be a relatively short career but it isn't a full-time job so players have lots of time to prepare themselves for life after football the fact that most are too lazy to do so should be their problem and not the games.

3. I have never been to the cinema, a concert, a restaurant or a festival and been treated like a potential criminal, so why do football supporters have to accept it.

A point that I think contributes directly to the quality of the game is the closed shop there seems to be with respect to management and coaching where bad practice is perpetuated, clubs need to look beyond ex-pros for coaching staff and managers and bring some fresh thinking into the game.

Agree with all of this - all good points. I guess the difficult bit is how do we change this stuff? Look how hard it is to get any change in the game? It's run by people so embedded in the way things are that they can't see outside it - as you say perpetuating the status quo. Look at the sfa? They continue to make a mess of running the game but nothing ever changes there. There is no accountability for these people.

Agree re the closed shop thing with management and like him or not Wottes comments were revealing when he said there was too much resistance to change. Interesting also that Cathro who is now lauded as breaking new ground in coaching, never really played the game at any serious level.

[johnnie x]

It stems from the top. The SFA and SPFL, (SPL & SFL before them) have the worst 'strategy'. Spending all their time trying to compare us to the monster next door.

a) Its a niche product so treat it that way and don't blindly follow down south, whats good for the goose is not good for the gander. We are a small shop trying to compete with Tesco so we shouldnt go head to head with them and always compare ourselves to them and try to do what they do. Why not think along the lines of American sports marketing and distrubution of collective wealth.

Talk the game up, not down. Talk of armageddon from the people in charge isn't going to get you very far. We have had far too many Ratner moments

c) Let folk stand on a terrace - don't let any more people into the area than a safety certificate would allow. Its not difficult.

d) A pint at the game - treat adults like adults, would help with finances. Works fine in Germany. Its not like people are advocating a return to carry outs and half bottles.

e) Players attitudes - With a few notable exceptions too many players like the easy life, i like the sound of what Neilson is doing with hearts. You will only improve if you practice and learn the game.

f) There does seem a move towards producing better younger players with more technical ability and that has to be the way forward.

g) More indoor training facilites

[johnnie x]

Does anyone know how much a club is paid when a live game is shown?

For the league they aren't given any extra money per showing it just comes out of the TV pot. (prize money?)

Cup games are about 80k per team.

[Fairbairn]

AVB is proof that you don't have to have played professionally to be a successful coach.

[Rossy]

I don't agree with the sweeping statement 'quality has dropped'.

If it means..'we don't have the same amount of overpaid foreigners in the league and that means the quality of a couple of teams has dropped', then that's true. There's no Laudrup, Larsson, Petrov, Gascoigne, Be Doers etc in the league.

However, I would say that as an overall, quality has risen. The likes of Aberdeen and Dundee United are better sides than they were 10 years ago, and there's some good football being played by Hamilton, Thistle, Dundee etc.

The quality level of the Championship has improved considerably, to the extent that even the likes of Cowdenbeath, Dumbarton, Alloa etc have abandoned kick and rush and try to play football.

There are some really good, young, Scottish managers out there who have abandoned the old ways and are getting players to play modern football. On top of that, I believe that we're producing some excellent youngsters in the Scottish game and that the future of the international side is brighter than it has been for almost 20 years.

So yes, the quality of a couple of teams who can no longer afford highly paid foreigners has went down. But aside from that, I believe that the overall quality in Scottish football has improved......I think that most clubs have left the dark days of boom and bust behind, and the investments that they've made in youth are paying off.

The future's bright.

[Larky Masher]

For the league they aren't given any extra money per showing it just comes out of the TV pot. (prize money?)

Cup games are about 80k per team.

So about 4000 paying customers so I guess that Dundee and Aberdeen probably came out ahead on Saturday as it's unlikely the would have got 9000 has the game not been on TV but for (SPF)league games it could be a different story.

[SMcoolJ]

I would like to know how much tax payer’s money was wasted on the dozens of police used to stop and search every single bus going from Aberdeen to Dundee on Saturday morning. The journey takes about an hour, the buses would have been leaving around 10am - did the police seriously think that drinking was going to be a significant issue and that this exercise was worthwhile?

If the Police and regulatory authorities really see this as an issue and want to do something about it, then how about allowing drinking at the stadiums before the game. People are going to do this, so why not create an environment where you can then control the level of alcohol and those who get it if needed? Also means that the clubs also get much needed revenue through the alcohol sales coupled with additional food and merchandise sales.

On the quality issue of our game - I don't think it's dropped all that much and would actually suggest it was at its lowest a few years ago - i actually think it has improved slightly in the last couple of seasons. This may, of course, be largely dependent on which team you watch though!

[Larky Masher]

I don't agree with the sweeping statement 'quality has dropped'.

If it means..'we don't have the same amount of overpaid foreigners in the league and that means the quality of a couple of teams has dropped', then that's true. There's no Laudrup, Larsson, Petrov, Gascoigne, Be Doers etc in the league.

However, I would say that as an overall, quality has risen. The likes of Aberdeen and Dundee United are better sides than they were 10 years ago, and there's some good football being played by Hamilton, Thistle, Dundee etc.

The quality level of the Championship has improved considerably, to the extent that even the likes of Cowdenbeath, Dumbarton, Alloa etc have abandoned kick and rush and try to play football.

There are some really good, young, Scottish managers out there who have abandoned the old ways and are getting players to play modern football. On top of that, I believe that we're producing some excellent youngsters in the Scottish game and that the future of the international side is brighter than it has been for almost 20 years.

So yes, the quality of a couple of teams who can no longer afford highly paid foreigners has went down. But aside from that, I believe that the overall quality in Scottish football has improved......I think that most clubs have left the dark days of boom and bust behind, and the investments that they've made in youth are paying off.

The future's bright.

Rossy I'd suggest that an assessment of quality simply looking at the game within Scotland is subjective. If you look at what I'd suggest is more objective data i.e. results in European competitions or number of home based players in the full national side, then you get a different perspective.