Diddy Teams

[mr mojo risin]

On top of their cast iron guarantee of the title every year, the top 2 have only lost 3 of their last 38 finals v the rest now!! We've lost all 8 finals against them in the Sky/Bosman/Champions League era.

I know it's a much discussed topic but we really need to go our separate ways. I was telling my tearful 8yo on Sunday that hopefully he'll be lucky enough to see it happen in his lifetime. In the meantime it's getting harder to answer his "what's the point" question as we wait patiently for the once every 15 year final we might actually win. We could finish 3rd 20 years in a row without making a dent.

[dan cake]

19 minutes ago, mr mojo risin said:

On top of their cast iron guarantee of the title every year, the top 2 have only lost 3 of their last 38 finals v the rest now!!

Can only talk about the Edinburgh teams but VAR might have changed a few of those later results, both Celtic’s goals against Hibs in the 2021 league cup final were questionable offsides with one being scored when the game had fucking stopped for a substitution. I’m sure Edouard got a very dubious penalty against the hertz when required in 2019

[Diamond Scot]

2 hours ago, mr mojo risin said:

On top of their cast iron guarantee of the title every year, the top 2 have only lost 3 of their last 38 finals v the rest now!! We've lost all 8 finals against them in the Sky/Bosman/Champions League era.

I know it's a much discussed topic but we really need to go our separate ways. I was telling my tearful 8yo on Sunday that hopefully he'll be lucky enough to see it happen in his lifetime. In the meantime it's getting harder to answer his "what's the point" question as we wait patiently for the once every 15 year final we might actually win. We could finish 3rd 20 years in a row without making a dent.

Finishing 3rd every year for a club like Aberdeen, Hearts or Hibs would make a huge difference.

Automatic qualification for group stage football not only brings in much needed finance but allows the club to offer longer contracts, snap up free agents on higher wages, attract better standard of loan players but would create a gap between 3rd and the rest.

Thr financial gap between the OF and Aberdeen is massive but so is the gap between Aberdeen and Livi / Ross County. Yet reguarly teams like Aberdeen drop points to these other outfits and are close to them in the table. 

If one of the above clubs got their act together with the right board and a manager who didnt accept the current order then big strides could be made. 

Despite the cash the OF have, they are limited in the players they can buy these days. For example Celtic have something like 70 million in the bank but they simply couldnt buy a 15 / 20 million pound player. Partly because said player would then demand a wage in the region of 100k per week but mainly because that standard of player wouldnt come to Scotland as he will have more attractive offers. Therefore the OF are shopping in the buy to sell or giving 2nd chances market. 

Thats the same market a successful 3rd placed club would be operating in albeit at the lower end. Take Clarkston as an example. Doubtful he would have joined had Aberdeen not been able to offer group stage football. Imagine that could be offered every year. All of a sudden there is no need to sell your best players to the OF and the building blocks could be put together slowly but surely.

Unfortunetly it seems Hearts and Aberdeen cant have more than 1 good season in a row, even with the advantages the Euro money has given them over the rest of the league.

[vanderark14]

6 hours ago, Diamond Scot said:

Finishing 3rd every year for a club like Aberdeen, Hearts or Hibs would make a huge difference.

Automatic qualification for group stage football not only brings in much needed finance but allows the club to offer longer contracts, snap up free agents on higher wages, attract better standard of loan players but would create a gap between 3rd and the rest.

Thr financial gap between the OF and Aberdeen is massive but so is the gap between Aberdeen and Livi / Ross County. Yet reguarly teams like Aberdeen drop points to these other outfits and are close to them in the table. 

If one of the above clubs got their act together with the right board and a manager who didnt accept the current order then big strides could be made. 

Despite the cash the OF have, they are limited in the players they can buy these days. For example Celtic have something like 70 million in the bank but they simply couldnt buy a 15 / 20 million pound player. Partly because said player would then demand a wage in the region of 100k per week but mainly because that standard of player wouldnt come to Scotland as he will have more attractive offers. Therefore the OF are shopping in the buy to sell or giving 2nd chances market. 

Thats the same market a successful 3rd placed club would be operating in albeit at the lower end. Take Clarkston as an example. Doubtful he would have joined had Aberdeen not been able to offer group stage football. Imagine that could be offered every year. All of a sudden there is no need to sell your best players to the OF and the building blocks could be put together slowly but surely.

Unfortunetly it seems Hearts and Aberdeen cant have more than 1 good season in a row, even with the advantages the Euro money has given them over the rest of the league.

There's a couple or rather big challenges clubs face every year

1. Their teams gets picked apart almost every season to consistency is tough to obtain.

2. The whole set up in Scotland is geared towards two teams. The media and the authorities care only for the rivalry between celtic and rangers and maintaining it

3. I'm sure I will get pelters for this but there is absolutely no doubt now that refs favour the OF, most recently it's rangers benefiting. Some of the decisions they get are beyond comprehension and the complicit media go along with it.

[dan cake]

I thought Aberdeen missed a massive opportunity when Rangers, Hibs and Hertz all spent time out of the top league, up against Rodgers first Celtic team for a chunk of that tho. 

[Squirrelhumper]

13 hours ago, mr mojo risin said:

On top of their cast iron guarantee of the title every year, the top 2 have only lost 3 of their last 38 finals v the rest now!! We've lost all 8 finals against them in the Sky/Bosman/Champions League era.

I know it's a much discussed topic but we really need to go our separate ways. I was telling my tearful 8yo on Sunday that hopefully he'll be lucky enough to see it happen in his lifetime. In the meantime it's getting harder to answer his "what's the point" question as we wait patiently for the once every 15 year final we might actually win. We could finish 3rd 20 years in a row without making a dent.

A few teams have beaten the OF at Hampden in finals in the last 10 or so years....

[Squirrelhumper]

2 minutes ago, dan cake said:

I thought Aberdeen missed a massive opportunity when Rangers, Hibs and Hertz all spent time out of the top league, up against Rodgers first Celtic team for a chunk of that tho. 

The biggest opportunity missed was when Aberdeen voted with Celtic to keep the 11/1 voting rule. 

Will never ever understand that. 

[dan cake]

6 minutes ago, Squirrelhumper said:

The biggest opportunity missed was when Aberdeen voted with Celtic to keep the 11/1 voting rule. 

Will never ever understand that. 

Can’t disagree with that, baffling decision 

[Diamond Scot]

4 hours ago, vanderark14 said:

There's a couple or rather big challenges clubs face every year

1. Their teams gets picked apart almost every season to consistency is tough to obtain.

2. The whole set up in Scotland is geared towards two teams. The media and the authorities care only for the rivalry between celtic and rangers and maintaining it

3. I'm sure I will get pelters for this but there is absolutely no doubt now that refs favour the OF, most recently it's rangers benefiting. Some of the decisions they get are beyond comprehension and the complicit media go along with it.

1) My point was that this would be lessened if a team such as Aberdeen could finish 3rd every year. Its alot easier to keep players if you have a steady income stream from Europe every year. You can afford to offer longer contracts which prevents low ball offers. Aberdeen no longer need to sell their best players for less than a million quid. Especially with clubs in England having so much money. This is a negative for the OF and very much a positive for Scottish teams.

2) Agreed and imo its up to the non OF chairman to band together. I was actually watching the Brawn GP documentary the other night where it showed the creation of FOTA which was basically the teams coming together. If the non OF teams could do something similar it would give them a much stronger argument, even with the 11/1 voting structure. Ive given an example in another thread about cup tickets. If the 10 non OF clubs stated pre season that they wouldnt be participating in the cup unless a guarentee of a 50/50 split being offered then it would force the authorities to discuss.

3) This doesnt affect a club like Aberdeen consistently finishing 3rd. If refs are biased towards the OF then it equally affects all non OF clubs. A match between Aberdeen and Ross County wont be affected by said bias.

[vanderark14]

1 hour ago, Diamond Scot said:

1) My point was that this would be lessened if a team such as Aberdeen could finish 3rd every year. Its alot easier to keep players if you have a steady income stream from Europe every year. You can afford to offer longer contracts which prevents low ball offers. Aberdeen no longer need to sell their best players for less than a million quid. Especially with clubs in England having so much money. This is a negative for the OF and very much a positive for Scottish teams.

2) Agreed and imo its up to the non OF chairman to band together. I was actually watching the Brawn GP documentary the other night where it showed the creation of FOTA which was basically the teams coming together. If the non OF teams could do something similar it would give them a much stronger argument, even with the 11/1 voting structure. Ive given an example in another thread about cup tickets. If the 10 non OF clubs stated pre season that they wouldnt be participating in the cup unless a guarentee of a 50/50 split being offered then it would force the authorities to discuss.

3) This doesnt affect a club like Aberdeen consistently finishing 3rd. If refs are biased towards the OF then it equally affects all non OF clubs. A match between Aberdeen and Ross County wont be affected by said bias.

It effects Aberdeens chances of winning a trophy tho, Sunday was the prime example of that. 

[N4Footsoldier]

The key point I take from the thread is that it is harder and harder to dissuade young kids from either glory hunting or becoming armchair fans given the sensationalism that is underpinned by the TV era and marketing behind said era when we think about premier league and champions league. 

I do empathise with this since its much easier for kids to watch and "support" teams on TV from hundreds of miles away, pester their parents to buy them the famous team's shirts and merchandise and not be too bothered about the result relative to investing the time and energy to watch a game in person 3 hours each way from Aberdeen to Glasgow for talking sakes.

[PapofGlencoe]

The League cup final could have gone either way.  Wasn't like Rangers dominated it, in fact I thought it was too quite poor teams fighting it out.  it was competitive.  

 

[Diamond Scot]

2 hours ago, vanderark14 said:

It effects Aberdeens chances of winning a trophy tho, Sunday was the prime example of that. 

It does, my point is that the big teams like Aberdeen have it in their own hands to distance themselves from the rest of the pack and have consistently failed to do so. Thats on them and nothing to do with the OF. If Aberdeen played in Europe every year with all the things ive listed above that come with it then their chances of beating the OF on a one off cup final would be improved.

Scottish football should really be the OF, then Aberdeen, Hearts, Hibs and possibly Dundee Utd. It should be a massive effort for the other teams to break into the top 6.

Of the 4 non OF big teams in Scotland, 3 of them have been recently relagated and out of the last 20 seasons Aberdeen have finished outside the top 6 on 7 occassions. 

[vanderark14]

38 minutes ago, Diamond Scot said:

It does, my point is that the big teams like Aberdeen have it in their own hands to distance themselves from the rest of the pack and have consistently failed to do so. Thats on them and nothing to do with the OF. If Aberdeen played in Europe every year with all the things ive listed above that come with it then their chances of beating the OF on a one off cup final would be improved.

Scottish football should really be the OF, then Aberdeen, Hearts, Hibs and possibly Dundee Utd. It should be a massive effort for the other teams to break into the top 6.

Of the 4 non OF big teams in Scotland, 3 of them have been recently relagated and out of the last 20 seasons Aberdeen have finished outside the top 6 on 7 occassions. 

The flaw here is getting to europe. Till last season it was almost impossible for non OF team to reach groups stages, now the country has an automatic place for the ECL for now but if we go back to the days of 4 playoffs pre groups we are fucked

 

[mr mojo risin]

On 12/20/2023 at 11:26 AM, Squirrelhumper said:

The biggest opportunity missed was when Aberdeen voted with Celtic to keep the 11/1 voting rule. 

Will never ever understand that. 

Me either

[mr mojo risin]

On 12/20/2023 at 12:46 AM, Diamond Scot said:

Finishing 3rd every year for a club like Aberdeen, Hearts or Hibs would make a huge difference.

Automatic qualification for group stage football not only brings in much needed finance but allows the club to offer longer contracts, snap up free agents on higher wages, attract better standard of loan players but would create a gap between 3rd and the rest.

Thr financial gap between the OF and Aberdeen is massive but so is the gap between Aberdeen and Livi / Ross County. Yet reguarly teams like Aberdeen drop points to these other outfits and are close to them in the table. 

If one of the above clubs got their act together with the right board and a manager who didnt accept the current order then big strides could be made. 

Despite the cash the OF have, they are limited in the players they can buy these days. For example Celtic have something like 70 million in the bank but they simply couldnt buy a 15 / 20 million pound player. Partly because said player would then demand a wage in the region of 100k per week but mainly because that standard of player wouldnt come to Scotland as he will have more attractive offers. Therefore the OF are shopping in the buy to sell or giving 2nd chances market. 

Thats the same market a successful 3rd placed club would be operating in albeit at the lower end. Take Clarkston as an example. Doubtful he would have joined had Aberdeen not been able to offer group stage football. Imagine that could be offered every year. All of a sudden there is no need to sell your best players to the OF and the building blocks could be put together slowly but surely.

Unfortunetly it seems Hearts and Aberdeen cant have more than 1 good season in a row, even with the advantages the Euro money has given them over the rest of the league.

A lot of what you say is fair enough (although I think the financial gap from 2nd to 3rd is worse, and harder to bridge, than lower down). A couple of things though;

1. We seem to need a new team worth of players at least every season - even if we got it spot on and they were all Miovski standard, would that be enough to actually challenge for the league?

2. There seems to be a ceiling on what we can sell for. Miovski is young, improving and on a long contract yet people laugh at us getting more than £5/£6 Million. We could have the next Messi on our hands and wouldn't get anything like the money Rangers, Celtic or a foreign team would.

[mr mojo risin]

On 12/20/2023 at 11:24 AM, Squirrelhumper said:

A few teams have beaten the OF at Hampden in finals in the last 10 or so years....

Sure there were only 3 since the mid 90s.

[Diamond Scot]

2 hours ago, mr mojo risin said:

A lot of what you say is fair enough (although I think the financial gap from 2nd to 3rd is worse, and harder to bridge, than lower down). A couple of things though;

1. We seem to need a new team worth of players at least every season - even if we got it spot on and they were all Miovski standard, would that be enough to actually challenge for the league?

2. There seems to be a ceiling on what we can sell for. Miovski is young, improving and on a long contract yet people laugh at us getting more than £5/£6 Million. We could have the next Messi on our hands and wouldn't get anything like the money Rangers, Celtic or a foreign team would.

I agree but my point isnt that Aberdeen could or should be challenging for the league. Its that there is and has been a real opportunity for them to distance themselves from 5th downwards and thats something Hearts, Aberdeen and Hibs have failed to do.

Guarenteed European football eqch year makes it easier to not have to rebuild every year for a few reasons. Firstly you can put players on longer contracts, secondly players are less likely to want to leave as soon and thirdly its alot easier to attract players.  Hearts actually did this really well. They ties guys like Shankland down to longer contracts, padded out their squad more and also brought in some free transfers like Forrest. 

If Aberdeen for example consistently finished 3rd and got group stage football then they could cherry pick the out of contract / 1 year left from the rest of Scottish football. They would also be much more atttactive for guys like Clarkston / those wanting exposure but also would be able to attract a better quality of loan players.

Your last point is also correct but thats the nature of business, not just football. If an unknown talented shoe designers makes amazing quality of shoes they still cant sell them for 5k like the big well known established fashion houses. However each succesfull sell makes the next sell price abit higher. Look at Ajax. Because of the success over years they now get a premium. I guarentee if an Italian club wants to buy a promising Aberdeen player the price they would be willing to pay would be slightly higher due to Ferguson etc